Please help me rank these programs!

[House D.O.]

So I cannot for the life of me rank these 3 programs. They are towards the bottom of my list and I was wondering if I could get any external input.

JFK Johnson Rehabilitation Institute - NJ
Chicago Schwab
Brooklyn Kingsbrook

Now I know what your thinking kingsbrook has no name, and schwab is high for reputation. However during my interview at schwab I just got a horrible taste of the inpatient units. Super run down hospital, no resources, and no elective time???

Kingsbrook 74k salary, 3 month elective time + lots of board prep. But that is due to the reason they don't have good passing rates.

NJ kind of a run down hospital, feel like it a work heavy program, Cucorillo is the PD but who wants to live in NJ.

Things I care about a lot are: electives for fellowship (Sports and spine or pain most likely) & work life balance & location (Chicago>Brooklyn>NJ).

If yall have any input from interviewing there or being a resident or knowing one there it would be much much appreciated!

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[Piebaldi]

So I cannot for the life of me rank these 3 programs. They are towards the bottom of my list and I was wondering if I could get any external input.

NJ Rutgers
Chicago Schwab
Brooklyn Kingsbrook

Now I know what your thinking kingsbrook has no name, and schwab is high for reputation. However during my interview at schwab I just got a horrible taste of the inpatient units. Super run down hospital, no resources, and no elective time???

Kingsbrook 74k salary, 3 month elective time + lots of board prep. But that is due to the reason they don't have good passing rates.

NJ kind of a run down hospital, feel like it a work heavy program, and who wants to live in NJ.

Things I care about a lot are: electives for fellowship (Sports and spine or pain most likely) & work life balance & location (Chicago>Brooklyn>NJ).

If yall have any input from interviewing there or being a resident or knowing one there it would be much much appreciated!

Schwab is indeed run down, and it's in a terrible part of town. I believe they still have in house call - I would not want to be there at night and I am from Chicago. I do think they get elective time from what I can remember? But don't quote me on that. Living in Chicago is nice for sure, but yeah I think the hospital has limitations and many if not most of the patients are going to be low income, the spinal cord experience is heavily for gun shot wound victims - you get the idea.

I would not go to Kingsbrook - granted I didnt' interview there, but the high salary is bc NY is freaking expensive, so it's comparable to salaries at other programs. You can do your own studying for boards in 2-3 months and pass so I woudln't rank a program based on board prep. NJ might suck, but Rutgers has a decent reputation. I didn't interview there per se, but with good reputation typically comes a heavy work load. So I would go for Rutgers if I had to choose. I would say sports/spine fellowships are not hard to get in general, all spine felowships are not accredited anyways. Sports they vary. Pain fellowships are difficult to get in general and more so from PM&R if your program doesn't have a pain fellowship - Schwab does not have a pain fellowship as it's a stand alone hospital, I don't think Kingsbrook has one either, believe Rutgers does.

 

[exodian1]

Honestly I'd probably pick Rutgers. I didn't interview there, but it has a great reputation. Looking on the reddit spreadsheet, it seems like a ton of people are ranking it #1 so might be tough to get into.

I rotated at Schwab for a month. Very ghetto area and run down hospital. In house call which sucks. Work life balance seems good, PGY2 residents were usually there until 5 unless on call. PGY3s and 4s were never really at the base hospital unless didactics or call, so you really won't be spending a whole lot of time at the rehab facility after PGY2.

Wasn't super impressed with Kingsbrook. I interviewed there, and hospital was pretty run down looking and old. Area wasn't the best either. NY expensive af to live so that 74k doesn't get you much. Heck, no pre-interview dinner and the lunch was those crappy premade sandwiches. Felt like no money was spent on the interview. Lots of elective time and new PD. Also the chair said they're planning to merge with like 2 other hospitals which should mean good things. Lots of elective time which is nice

 

[j4pac]

JFK. Well rounded program. PD is stellar and provides stability. Only downside I guess could be location but pretty close to NYC, but I would say the other two programs are in much better locations

 

[Piebaldi]

JFK. Well rounded program. PD is stellar and provides stability. Only downside I guess could be location but pretty close to NYC, but I would say the other two programs are in much better locations

JFK wasn't listed initially, but I agree - although I would imagine that training is tough. I interviewed there and overall thought it was a resident friendly program - they give like 4-5 weeks off, your birthday off, extra money for call, etc. It seems they actually care if you learn! go figure.

But you didn't add your vote above dude!

 

[Butterfly23]

NJ kessler/rutgers is still one of the best programs in the country
Do not look at the hospital facility

 

[j4pac]

I could see Kessler as a very good option. Either way...I’d probably stay in NJ.

 

[House D.O.]

Im so sorry guuys, I have been mistaken. I mean JFK PM&R (Cucorillo is PD there) NOT RUTGERS. They both have affiliation theres so it confused me. I love yalls comments but for some reason my gut is tellling me to put Kingsbrook over schwab even though just looking at doximity I would be an idiot for that.

But PD at kingsbrook is newer and very open about their faults.3 months elective in 3rd year. Lots of board prep. And has abetter inpatient rehab facility than Schwab.

Also Residents told me at schwab during 3rd/4th year you are driving all over chicago.

 

[House D.O.]

What I care about most is MSK, Sports, Spine, Pain stuff. I feel like every program will teach me to become a good inpatient doc but want to master those skills I listed in an out patient setting.

 

[House D.O.]

Current call for Schwab. And I believe they have 8 weeks elective in 4th year.

 

[PMR2018]

Current call for Schwab. And I believe they have 8 weeks elective in 4th year.

No notes on weekend call would be awesome. Three admissions is pretty standard, but if you can start that at 9am or whatever it sounds like a pretty chill day especially with a post-call day after.

 

[Piebaldi]

Im so sorry guuys, I have been mistaken. I mean JFK PM&R (Cucorillo is PD there) NOT RUTGERS. They both have affiliation theres so it confused me. I love yalls comments but for some reason my gut is tellling me to put Kingsbrook over schwab even though just looking at doximity I would be an idiot for that.

But PD at kingsbrook is newer and very open about their faults.3 months elective in 3rd year. Lots of board prep. And has abetter inpatient rehab facility than Schwab.

Also Residents told me at schwab during 3rd/4th year you are driving all over chicago.

Kingsbrook is not really a good place to train though but ultimately up to you. Again don't rank a program by board prep! Board prep should be a small portion of your training, and should only take a few months in your 4th year. JFK is FAR superior to Kingsbrook and they give you a lot of elective time AND you will get great board prep since Cucurrullo is literally the person who wrote the main review book for board prep.

 

[timisdaman]

In academics, name, or "brand", is heavily weighted. Sometimes enough to make up for any slack in the quality of the program or the resident him/herself. So, keep that in mind if you intend on doing fellowship or practicing at an academic institution.

 

[Butterfly23]

Kingsbrook too many turnovers with PDs, It usually ranked low by many many applicants
JFK residents are excellent clinically but very weak in MSK training, you will rotate at ortho office for that and Ultrasound training is not that great. at the same time, MSK ultrasound is so overrated once you become attending
but JFK has their own pain program though

Lived in Jersey and trained in the Tri state, I will never never go back

 

[Butterfly23]

@drusso
I randomly read his post
Physiatric Low Esteem And Suffering Experience (PLEASE) syndrome
No matter which institution you train you get PLEASE SYNDROME. I am from Tri state and I experienced that Rutgers Kessler had the least of PLEASE SYNDROME
PLEASE SYNDROME can happen to any stages in your career

 

[Piebaldi]

Kingsbrook too many turnovers with PDs, It usually ranked low by many many applicants
JFK residents are excellent clinically but very weak in MSK training, you will rotate at ortho office for that and Ultrasound training is not that great. at the same time, MSK ultrasound is so overrated once you become attending
but JFK has their own pain program though

Lived in Jersey and trained in the Tri state, I will never never go back

Agreed MSK is meh at best - not that huge of a loss and nothing you can't learn on your own really.

 

[functionforlife]

Recent grad from Schwab. yes run down and in the ghetto, but you're knowledge and readiness to practice is top notch. The program does have it challenges with resources, but you learn to use what you have, making going to fellowship and practice with more resources much more comfortable. No connection to pain fellowship, but every year they have grads match into the fellowships they want in pain, sports, tbi, peds, sports and spine. This year they had 3/3 of their residents match into very competitive pain programs. 8 weeks elective is correct. PGY2 year is heavy inpatient, but most pm&r programs are. After that, rotations are set up for the best possible learning and training experience: ultrasound guided injections, fluoro injections, I had almost 300 emgs under my belt. Another great benefit is you have free reign to pursue your own interests, including research. I had an interest in pain as a PGY2 and ran with it with guidance and support that got me an awesome fellowship in pain.

Honestly, I preferred in-house call. Carrying a pager at home is nice, sure, but if it's a rough night you are still committed to going in the next day. To be completely honest, i've had a few rough and memorable call nights (normal rehab hospital falls, sending out for CT scan since they are on thinners, etc), but I definitely had plenty of quiet nights of 1 or no pages throughout the night. Weekend calls aren't bad; you have all day to do 3 admissions, no rounding on patients. There isn't a reason for you to be outside the hospital anyway if you're on call and safety has never been an issue with any of the residents.

It also goes without saying, Dr. Gittler, who is currently AAPM&R President, is the champion of the program and continuing to improve the program based off resident's feedback. Monthly PD-resident meetings on how everything is, changes, and recommendations on improvement.

With regards to driving time, it depends on where you live in Chicago. I lived in River North and was a pretty central area to all the rotation sites. Yeah, going to Shriner's was about a 45 minute drive, but since I wanted as little of peds as possible, only lasted about 2.5 weeks considering I set up call days during that rotation.

I don't usually write posts, but i felt like there needed to be a more positive voice. Everyone wants something different from their program and your rank lists are your very own and you deserve to be selfish in your wants. I prioritized being hands on experience with procedures, broad and diverse spec of PM&R experiences, and the ability to give me the best chances of a fellowship or job in the region i wanted.

 

[RangerBob]

Recent grad from Schwab. yes run down and in the ghetto, but you're knowledge and readiness to practice is top notch. The program does have it challenges with resources, but you learn to use what you have, making going to fellowship and practice with more resources much more comfortable. No connection to pain fellowship, but every year they have grads match into the fellowships they want in pain, sports, tbi, peds, sports and spine. This year they had 3/3 of their residents match into very competitive pain programs. 8 weeks elective is correct. PGY2 year is heavy inpatient, but most pm&r programs are. After that, rotations are set up for the best possible learning and training experience: ultrasound guided injections, fluoro injections, I had almost 300 emgs under my belt. Another great benefit is you have free reign to pursue your own interests, including research. I had an interest in pain as a PGY2 and ran with it with guidance and support that got me an awesome fellowship in pain.

Honestly, I preferred in-house call. Carrying a pager at home is nice, sure, but if it's a rough night you are still committed to going in the next day. To be completely honest, i've had a few rough and memorable call nights (normal rehab hospital falls, sending out for CT scan since they are on thinners, etc), but I definitely had plenty of quiet nights of 1 or no pages throughout the night. Weekend calls aren't bad; you have all day to do 3 admissions, no rounding on patients. There isn't a reason for you to be outside the hospital anyway if you're on call and safety has never been an issue with any of the residents.

It also goes without saying, Dr. Gittler, who is currently AAPM&R President, is the champion of the program and continuing to improve the program based off resident's feedback. Monthly PD-resident meetings on how everything is, changes, and recommendations on improvement.

With regards to driving time, it depends on where you live in Chicago. I lived in River North and was a pretty central area to all the rotation sites. Yeah, going to Shriner's was about a 45 minute drive, but since I wanted as little of peds as possible, only lasted about 2.5 weeks considering I set up call days during that rotation.

I don't usually write posts, but i felt like there needed to be a more positive voice. Everyone wants something different from their program and your rank lists are your very own and you deserve to be selfish in your wants. I prioritized being hands on experience with procedures, broad and diverse spec of PM&R experiences, and the ability to give me the best chances of a fellowship or job in the region i wanted.

One of my attendings went to Schwab. Super smart guy. Clearly a great program

Back when he was a resident there, he was taking in-house for call, sleeping. He got woken up by a knock on the door around 3am. “Didn’t you hear the code?” (Apparently the speakers we’re out). So he runs down to where the code was called, in the basement. He gets there, sweaty and out of breath, and there are 15 people standing there waiting for him, surrounding... a mannequin.

Back when he trained they did mock codes at Schwab.

He had some choice four-letter words about being woken up for a mock code. I believe they stopped doing them in the middle of the night shortly after that. I’m not sure if they still do them at all though...

It’s actually a great idea. Just not the waking someone up from sleep for pretend code...