PhDs and entry-level research roles

[Ollie123]

Quick poll to see if others are experiencing the same thing: Those of you who hire research staff (i.e. not students) - are you seeing a weirdly large increase in PhDs applying for entry-level research technician/coordinator positions?

This was unheard of in my circles 3-4 years ago. However, a colleague at my former institution just brought on a post-doc who originally applied for a coordinator role. Two colleagues here just hired PhDs applying for entry-level positions. I'm hiring now for a super-entry-level position and got 3 (!!!) applicants with PhDs, albeit one obviously didn't know what sort of role he was applying to based on the cover letter.

Just trying to figure out if this is COVID-related job market weirdness, a bad academic job market or just random.

Happy to hire a PhD for this. Not sure they want the job. If grants come through I could slide them into more of a manager role, but I just moved and need someone to run participant visits and do phone screens!

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[thebalmofhurtminds]

A few people in my circle are burnt out on the expectations of academia and want something simpler, with work-life balance. Might be that. We've gotten a few masters degrees in applications for our support staff actually.

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah, that was another possibility I thought of but neglected to mention.

Honestly, doesn't seem a bad way to go in low COL areas. I know senior coordinators making 70k+ and those in more departmental admin roles can eek into the 6 figures. More than many faculty will make outside of R1 or AMC settings. All without the pressure to get grants.

Maybe I'll apply for my job posting

 

[R. Matey]

If you're in a desirable metro area, this might be a more common occurrence especially if the Ph.D. is living in a dual-income household. I have lived pretty desirable metro areas and I can remember two Ph.Ds I've met who owned coffee shops.

 

[futureapppsy2]

In the end, they need a job, and a research coordinator position probably has better benefits than a lot of post-docs, tbh. Heck, I was seriously considering just going back to school for something completely different if I didn't get a TT faculty job in my last round of applicants (after one year post-doc, one year VAP, one year non-TT research professor).

 

[DynamicDidactic]

How surprising. I have no input on that but tangentially...

I am working on a grant budget with a collaborator and we have realized that hiring a research coordinator (just a bachelors) will likely require us to budget 50-60K (pre-benefits). At that point, it may be more worthwhile to hire a postdoc to do the same job but also get all the additional perks. I made much less as a postdoc and that was 5 years ago.

 

[R. Matey]

In the end, they need a job, and a research coordinator position probably has better benefits than a lot of post-docs, tbh. Heck, I was seriously considering just going back to school for something completely different if I didn't get a TT faculty job in my last round of applicants (after one year post-doc, one year VAP, one year non-TT research professor).

Honestly, I looked into positions like @Ollie123 is mentioning for myself when I was applying for things last year. With my license, I could do a research position with a base pay and benefits and a side practice. Not a bad life.

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah, I feel like the growth of research bureaucracy has turned what was once a stopping point before graduate school into its own profession of sorts. Not a good thing in my view, really just example of self-perpetuating bureaucracy but it is what it is. My last institution definitely had plenty of admins whose job it was to create rules that didn't help and enforce them poorly and selectively who made more than junior faculty.

If you're in a desirable metro area, this might be a more common occurrence especially if the Ph.D. is living in a dual-income household. I have lived pretty desirable metro areas and I can remember two Ph.Ds I've met who owned coffee shops.

Metro (and one that I love) but definitely not one most people think of as desirable on a national scale.

How surprising. I have no input on that but tangentially...

I am working on a grant budget with a collaborator and we have realized that hiring a research coordinator (just a bachelors) will likely require us to budget 50-60K (pre-benefits). At that point, it may be more worthwhile to hire a postdoc to do the same job but also get all the additional perks. I made much less as a postdoc and that was 5 years ago.

Starting post-doc salaries are now mid-50's (+ some benefits though that varies by university; NOT-OD-21-049: Ruth L. Kirschstein National Research Service Award (NRSA) Stipends, Tuition/Fees and Other Budgetary Levels Effective for Fiscal Year 2021). So not necessarily cheaper, but they can be about equivalent. To me, it just boils down to what I can ask someone to do. I'd feel bad making a post-doc do phone screens and run participant visits all day with limited time for writing. I can't imagine that would be a useful experience for them.

In the end, they need a job, and a research coordinator position probably has better benefits than a lot of post-docs, tbh. Heck, I was seriously considering just going back to school for something completely different if I didn't get a TT faculty job in my last round of applicants (after one year post-doc, one year VAP, one year non-TT research professor).

Indeed. My main concern is stability as I would hate to hire and train someone who would leave in 3-4 months given the training I'd need to do for this role as I'm not expecting anyone to come in with neuroimaging experience. I was just kind of surprised and wondered if this was something others were seeing and indicative of broader trends in the field. Hope the PhD surplus hasn't gotten that bad in our field....

 

[WisNeuro]

Indeed. My main concern is stability as I would hate to hire and train someone who would leave in 3-4 months given the training I'd need to do for this role as I'm not expecting anyone to come in with neuroimaging experience. I was just kind of surprised and wondered if this was something others were seeing and indicative of broader trends in the field. Hope the PhD surplus hasn't gotten that bad in our field....

It is a continuing trend, though, isn't it? Undergraduate enrollment numbers have been dropping since 2010, that's going to start affecting the TT market sooner or later, and even the adjunct market will get hit pretty bad as time goes on.

 

[Sanman]

Indeed. My main concern is stability as I would hate to hire and train someone who would leave in 3-4 months given the training I'd need to do for this role as I'm not expecting anyone to come in with neuroimaging experience. I was just kind of surprised and wondered if this was something others were seeing and indicative of broader trends in the field. Hope the PhD surplus hasn't gotten that bad in our field....

I have a number of friends with PhDs in experimental psychology and other areas that I have known since my undergrad days. One is on year three of a research post-doc as his wife has a good job in a major metro and they are not moving, another is looking at government jobs (unrelated to his PhD) when his current fellowship runs out, and a third that works in university admissions (unrelated to his PhD). Of that group, I am by far the most monetarily successful. The second most successful is a good friend who quit the adjunct circuit to join the family business when he had a kid. That is all to say, I can think of a number of PhDs that would be thrilled with such a gig. In the clinical psych realm, I think most will default to clinical work unless you have a complete distaste for it or are not licensed.

 

[Sanman]

Yeah, that was another possibility I thought of but neglected to mention.

Honestly, doesn't seem a bad way to go in low COL areas. I know senior coordinators making 70k+ and those in more departmental admin roles can eek into the 6 figures. More than many faculty will make outside of R1 or AMC settings. All without the pressure to get grants.

Maybe I'll apply for my job posting

What would you talk about during the interview?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

self-perpetuating bureaucracy

Part of me really wants to do a study about researcher’s views of IRBs. I’m guessing the findings would be rather damning for the modern day IRB at research heavy places (and likely too lax at non-researchy institutions).

 

[Spydra]

Is it possible that some of the applicants don't feel qualified or ready for a role with more responsibility? I have certainly been pondering this as postdoc application season looms.

 

[Ollie123]

Is it possible that some of the applicants don't feel qualified or ready for a role with more responsibility? I have certainly been pondering this as postdoc application season looms.

Maybe? But we're talking a really super-duper entry level role that was openly advertised as requiring a bachelor's and paying significantly less than a typical post-doc (38k is upper end of range). I got several applicants with 20+ publications.

 

[Sanman]

Maybe? But we're talking a really super-duper entry level role that was openly advertised as requiring a bachelor's and paying significantly less than a typical post-doc (38k is upper end of range). I got several applicants with 20+ publications.

Were these clinical or non-clinical folks?

EDIT: Since it is on topic

America is pumping out too many PhDs

 

[Ollie123]

One clinical, two non-clinical. Honestly though, we pay postdocs 60k + benefits + a 10k travel/training/research stipend. Why not do something like that?

That said, I started interviewing and think I "get" why they applied now. 2/3 are actually not viable candidates.

Agree RE: PhDs. Credential inflation is becoming almost Soviet-like.

 

[WisNeuro]

One clinical, two non-clinical. Honestly though, we pay postdocs 60k + benefits + a 10k travel/training/research stipend. Why not do something like that?

That said, I started interviewing and think I "get" why they applied now. 2/3 are actually not viable candidates.

Agree RE: PhDs. Credential inflation is becoming almost Soviet-like.

Out of curiosity, what makes them not viable?

 

[Ollie123]

One had never had actual patient contact, just did bench work and had no real knowledge of IRB, consent, etc. The other had poor communication skills.

 

[WisNeuro]

One had never had actual patient contact, just did bench work and had no real knowledge of IRB, consent, etc. The other had poor communication skills.

How does one make it through some type of legitimate PhD with no patient contact, or research knowledge of IRB, etc?

 

[Ollie123]

How does one make it through some type of legitimate PhD with no patient contact, or research knowledge of IRB, etc?

Wasn't the clinical PhD. This isn't remotely uncommon for basic science folks in psychology who may do everything through IACUC, let alone the true bench science fields. They often have lab managers who do it and keep trainees out of it. Whether that is a good thing or not is a separate conversation.

 

[WisNeuro]

Wasn't the clinical PhD. This isn't remotely uncommon for basic science folks in psychology who may do everything through IACUC, let alone the true bench science fields. They often have lab managers who do it and keep trainees out of it. Whether that is a good thing or not is a separate conversation.

Interesting, at least for both us clinical and the neuroscience PhD folks at my program, we had to do all of the IRB stuff ourselves, our PIs just briefly reviewed and signed off on it. I more IRB experience than I ever wanted a couple years in

 

[Ollie123]

Stop thinking like a clinician I think in that world it is common and from what I know of the neuroscience program at your school it was basically a cognitive/affective neuroscience program which is still the far end of the spectrum on the basic-clinical continuum.

I'm more talking about the folks dissecting pigeon brains, staining tissue samples, building mathematical models of electrode function, etc. This was someone who trained in such a program, went on to clinical research (per publications) but had largely stayed behind the bench.

 

[WisNeuro]

Stop thinking like a clinician I think in that world it is common and from what I know of the neuroscience program at your school it was basically a cognitive/affective neuroscience program which is still the far end of the spectrum on the basic-clinical continuum.

I'm more talking about the folks dissecting pigeon brains, staining tissue samples, building mathematical models of electrode function, etc. This was someone who trained in such a program, went on to clinical research (per publications) but had largely stayed behind the bench.

Fair enough, just seems weird that they wouldn't have their students more involved in the IRB process given that they would have to navigate it someday for some of that research, at least for the pigeon brains

 

[Ollie123]

Pigeon brains = IACUC. IRBs (generally) aren't involved.

 

[WisNeuro]

Pigeon brains = IACUC. IRBs (generally) aren't involved.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, maybe I'm just remembering random bits and pieces about animal subjects research from all of my CITI training a couple years ago.

 

[Spydra]

One clinical, two non-clinical. Honestly though, we pay postdocs 60k + benefits + a 10k travel/training/research stipend. Why not do something like that?

That said, I started interviewing and think I "get" why they applied now. 2/3 are actually not viable candidates.

Agree RE: PhDs. Credential inflation is becoming almost Soviet-like.

So either they know they aren't qualified for more advanced positions or they tried and failed to get one. If the gaps in their training are that big it doesn't seem like they reasonably can start anywhere but entry level.

 

[ImAFreudNot]

I know the large, public university I attended for my PhD is still on a hiring freeze as a result of the financial fallout from COVID, so there may also be fewer TT or academic positions available this hiring cycle. Doesn't sound like that's the answer to this specific situation, but might contribute to a trend (if there is a trend).