Pharmacy school admissions crisis

[GrandTheftAutumn]

we shouldn’t make declarations that 300k student loans needs to be a norm, is the norm or is unavoidable.

Phar from normal...?

You are considered smart, mature and professional enough to be in a professional doctorate program

I wouldn't count on that. In fact, it seems like some are designed to be predatory.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[pharm B]

Pretty sure some preceptors still abuse students like this. For my retail rotation, I was stuck filling and doing register the whole time. If immunizations were allowed back then, they would have stuck me with those too.

I vowed never to be “that guy.” Prior to COVID, I’d set up a cool partnership with our local hospice service. Students did retail stuff but also got to shadow a hospice team for a week and do drug and case presentations to the hospice IDT.

Poor @BC_89 showed up right as I’d taken over an independent and a local chain shut down. It was a complete cluster… 😂

 

[Dred Pirate]

if not find roommates you can live cheap and have fun. Undergrad pre-reqts at a community college should not be a huge time burden nor cost burden via tuition. You should be able to work your ass off covering your expenses (provided you are living frugally), and most if not all of your tuition. Hell you might even be able to bank some.

Some of my fondest memories where how cheap I was able to do somethings - in my rotation year I paid $125 a month rent (in 2004) splitting a town home. One month I was at the VA, I came in early so I could get the free breakfast that was offered to residents, students, and patients in the drug rehab program. Also at lunch for free (same cafeteria) and went home and had a $1 totinos pizza. I literally survived on $1 a day for food.

 

[lord999]

Some of my fondest memories where how cheap I was able to do somethings - in my rotation year I paid $125 a month rent (in 2004) splitting a town home. One month I was at the VA, I came in early so I could get the free breakfast that was offered to residents, students, and patients in the drug rehab program. Also at lunch for free (same cafeteria) and went home and had a $1 totinos pizza. I literally survived on $1 a day for food.

Wait till you get the cancer from that "free" food from Sodexo Marriott at VA. We actually switched to US Foods after that canteen lawsuit.

 

[PharFromNormal]

Some of my fondest memories where how cheap I was able to do somethings - in my rotation year I paid $125 a month rent (in 2004) splitting a town home. One month I was at the VA, I came in early so I could get the free breakfast that was offered to residents, students, and patients in the drug rehab program. Also at lunch for free (same cafeteria) and went home and had a $1 totinos pizza. I literally survived on $1 a day for food.

Monday - Friday at the bar had free finger foods for happy hour. Grab a $2 beer and eat a tray of finger sandwiches.

Every blood drive on campus … free pizza. Endless free t shirts for insane amount of things. Split a house, carpool, share textbooks, share notes, share girlfriends… man to be young again…

 

[baronzb]

Monday - Friday at the bar had free finger foods for happy hour. Grab a $2 beer and eat a tray of finger sandwiches.

Every blood drive on campus … free pizza. Endless free t shirts for insane amount of things. Split a house, carpool, share textbooks, share notes, share girlfriends… man to be young again…

The midwest is great, tons of stuff like that; however, it's a sausage fest demographically.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

The midwest is great, tons of stuff like that; however, it's a sausage fest demographically.

Explains why sharing girlfriends was thrown in there

 

[PharFromNormal]

Explains why sharing girlfriends was thrown in there

Bingo

 

[sunnyandseventytwo]

The midwest is great, tons of stuff like that; however, it's a sausage fest demographically.

Wait, there's a shortage of women in the midwest? I hadn't noticed. My class was like 80% female. It was a midwest female, which isn't the same thing as a west coast female, though. I wish they all could be California girls.

 

[libra08]

$25/hour minimum wage for low level health care workers by 2027. Is it really worth getting a doctorate degree + debt so you can make $50/hr?

 

[RN2RPh]

$25/hour minimum wage for low level health care workers by 2027. Is it really worth getting a doctorate degree + debt so you can make $50/hr?



View attachment 379655

RPhs in CA make much more than $50/hr. Even if they do make $50/hr then ($50 -$25) x80 hrs x26 pay periods x30 years = $1,560,000...so yes, I can spare few hundred grands to have a doctorate degree plus proper college experiences lol

 

[libra08]

RPhs in CA make much more than $50/hr. Even if they do make $50/hr then ($50 -$25) x80 hrs x26 pay periods x30 years = $1,560,000...so yes, I can spare few hundred grands to have a doctorate degree plus proper college experiences lol

That is not how you calculate it…+ 6-8 years additional work - less income tax + 0 debt

What about risk? Will you work 30 years as a pharmacist in the age of automation and AI? How will the debt be repaid? When there is fewer jobs then you must work even harder to be competitive. That means more responsibilities and more stress. How will that affect your health?

The low level healthcare worker can also lose his job but he didn’t invest years in school and didn’t borrow massive debt. It would also be easier for him to find another job or switch to a similar career than a pharmacist.

The pharmacist might still come up on top in terms of lifetime earning but that doesn’t mean it is worth it when all factors are taken into consideration

 

[RN2RPh]

That is not how you calculate it…+ 6-8 years additional work - less income tax + 0 debt

What about risk? Will you work 30 years as a pharmacist in the age of automation and AI? How will the debt be repaid? When there is fewer jobs then you must work even harder to be competitive. That means more responsibilities and more stress. How will that affect your health?

The low level healthcare worker can also lose his job but he didn’t invest years in school and didn’t borrow massive debt. It would also be easier for him to find another job or switch to a similar career than a pharmacist.

The pharmacist might still come up on top in terms of lifetime earning but that doesn’t mean it is worth it when all factors are taken into consideration

Sure, AI & robots will take everyone's jobs in the future but with those extra 6-8 years of education, I can also find another job with comparable pay (just like my tech). My student loan repayment plan is income-base, so I am not worry if I make less money.

True, I did work much harder than my peers for a few years to get out of retail and eventually secure an "unicorn" job. It was a rough couple years, but it is "no pain no gain" right ?

The most important factor for me is "how is your quality of life in the present (and probbly near future)?". My techs make $25+/hr. They also have zero student loan debt & work 6-8 years more than me. They all seem struggling with their lives. Most can't afford a house. Most have to work overtime to pay for unexpected spends. Of course, they can't afford the life style I have. So yes, for me it is absolutely worth it !

 

[libra08]

Sure, AI & robots will take everyone's jobs in the future but with those extra 6-8 years of education, I can also find another job with comparable pay (just like my tech). My student loan repayment plan is income-base, so I am not worry if I make less money.

True, I did work much harder than my peers for a few years to get out of retail and eventually secure an "unicorn" job. It was a rough couple years, but it is "no pain no gain" right ?

The most important factor for me is "how is your quality of life in the present (and probbly near future)?". My techs make $25+/hr. They also have zero student loan debt & work 6-8 years more than me. They all seem struggling with their lives. Most can't afford a house. Most have to work overtime to pay for unexpected spends. Of course, they can't afford the life style I have. So yes, for me it is absolutely worth it !

No, you won’t (for most people). If you take away the traditional pharmacy jobs you would have a very difficult time finding another job with similar pay with a PharmD degree. There is simply not enough opportunities.

You have to pay tax on any forgiven student loan unless you are lucky to get on PSLF (majority won’t).

$25/hr is $52 k a year. That is not a bad starting salary at all especially if they married someone with a similar salary…six figure household income and without any debt. If they make good personal decisions and save early then they should do just fine.

 

[lord999]

If they make good personal decisions and save early then they should do just fine.

Pundit fallacy: When do you ever expect the average person, particularly techs, to make good decisions, personal or professional? Sure, there’s rare exceptions, but most of them are where they are because they just don’t think like that.

Same thing applies to pharmacists. There’s quite a group of jobs in industry that pay more than twice what the average pharmacist makes as a standard, but few do the work to get them.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

$25/hr is $52 k a year. That is not a bad starting salary at all especially if they married someone with a similar salary…six figure household income and without any debt. If they make good personal decisions and save early then they should do just fine.

Quick estimate:

$52k gross annual salary = $3,260 net monthly

$130k gross = $7,135 monthly

$150k gross = $8,135 monthly

If your pharmacist has $250k in debt, they're looking at ~$2,900 per month for a 10 year payoff at 7% interest

Both pharmacist salaries are probably on the low end for CA. Even after taxes and student loan payments, the pharmacist is taking home an extra ~$1,000-2,000 per month which goes up to $4,000-5,000 after loans are repaid. Double those differences for the household if you want to make the whole marrying someone with similar financials argument.

 

[libra08]

Quick estimate:

$52k gross annual salary = $3,260 net monthly

$130k gross = $7,135 monthly

$150k gross = $8,135 monthly

If your pharmacist has $250k in debt, they're looking at ~$2,900 per month for a 10 year payoff at 7% interest

Both pharmacist salaries are probably on the low end for CA. Even after taxes and student loan payments, the pharmacist is taking home an extra ~$1,000-2,000 per month which goes up to $4,000-5,000 after loans are repaid. Double those differences for the household if you want to make the whole marrying someone with similar financials argument.

Quick estimate:

$52k gross annual salary = $3,260 net monthly

$130k gross = $7,135 monthly

$150k gross = $8,135 monthly

If your pharmacist has $250k in debt, they're looking at ~$2,900 per month for a 10 year payoff at 7% interest

Both pharmacist salaries are probably on the low end for CA. Even after taxes and student loan payments, the pharmacist is taking home an extra ~$1,000-2,000 per month which goes up to $4,000-5,000 after loans are repaid. Double those differences for the household if you want to make the whole marrying someone with similar financials argument.

$52 k/year is $4,333 monthly, not $3260.

$130 k/year is certainly not the “low end” starting pharmacist in CA. Wages are not as competitive as you think unless you work for a union.

Remember you have to pay student loan with after taxed money.

I agree that a pharmacist salary would still be more than a tech salary but is it worth the years in school? The horrible retail working conditions? The huge student loans debt in the age of AI and automation?

 

[libra08]

Pundit fallacy: When do you ever expect the average person, particularly techs, to make good decisions, personal or professional? Sure, there’s rare exceptions, but most of them are where they are because they just don’t think like that.

Same thing applies to pharmacists. There’s quite a group of jobs in industry that pay more than twice what the average pharmacist makes as a standard, but few do the work to get them.

Pundit fallacy: When do you ever expect the average person, particularly techs, to make good decisions, personal or professional? Sure, there’s rare exceptions, but most of them are where they are because they just don’t think like that.

Same thing applies to pharmacists. There’s quite a group of jobs in industry that pay more than twice what the average pharmacist makes as a standard, but few do the work to get them.

That is the whole point. It is bad financial decision not that $52 k a year without debt is a bad starting salary

How many jobs are in the industry? 1-2% of pharmacy jobs? Vast majority don’t even make that kind of money. I know plenty of classmates who were the top students, did post graduate but ended up making less than a cvs pharmacist. It is not because “they are not willing to do the work” but because the opportunity is scarce and getting layoff is rather common.

I say this to everyone…if you are not willing to work in retail then don’t go into pharmacy. 75% of the jobs are in retail or retail like. The odds of you working in retail is pretty good.

 

[Gombrich12]

Why are you comparing a pharmacist to a tech? A lot of techs would struggle to graduate college. Compare a pharmacist to their peer group and that is the top 25% of 4 year degree holders. In that comparison pharmacists lose.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

$52k gross annual salary = $3,260 net monthly

$52 k/year is $4,333 monthly, not $3260.

Techs pay taxes too. My figures were clearly labeled as estimated net pay.

I agree that a pharmacist salary would still be more than a tech salary but is it worth the years in school?

Yes. Though I wouldn't recommend either option.

The horrible retail working conditions?

Not unique to pharmacists when we're comparing to pharmacy techs.

The huge student loans debt in the age of AI and automation?

Depends on what you mean by huge student loans. Over 250-300k? Probably not worth it without qualifying for some sort of loan relief.

If you end up in that situation, do whatever you can to increase salary or reduce debt burden. PSLF can dramatically reduce your loan burden and things like managed care/industry can dramatically raise your salary. If you can't navigate those, chances are you would have had spotty finances as a tech too.

(Note "you" is the "royal you." I don't know your personal situation.)

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Remember you have to pay student loan with after taxed money.

Forgot to reiterate: my breakdown was already comparing post-tax income. Taxes make a difference but probably not as large as you seem to be estimating.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Wait, there's a shortage of women in the midwest? I hadn't noticed. My class was like 80% female. It was a midwest female, which isn't the same thing as a west coast female, though. I wish they all could be California girls.

I am from the midwest - our class was 3:1 women to men- pretty sure there isn't a shortage- at least from a quantity standpoint,

 

[mentos]

Pundit fallacy: When do you ever expect the average person, particularly techs, to make good decisions, personal or professional? Sure, there’s rare exceptions, but most of them are where they are because they just don’t think like that.

Yep most techs I talk to live paycheck to paycheck and don't know anything about 401k, Roth IRA, HSA etc. They usually have the latest iPhone though.

 

[owlegrad]

Yep most techs I talk to live paycheck to paycheck and don't know anything about 401k, Roth IRA, HSA etc. They usually have the latest iPhone though.

Do they really though? I don’t know any techs that have the newest iPhone, although I know plenty with an iPhone.

Edit: well, to be totally fair I don’t know the phone of every tech I know, some of them might have the newest iPhone.

 

[mentos]

Do they really though? I don’t know any techs that have the newest iPhone, although I know plenty with an iPhone.

Edit: well, to be totally fair I don’t know the phone of every tech I know, some of them might have the newest iPhone.

Yes they're always talking about the 13, 14, 15 or whatever. I lost track. It boggles my mind that they spend over $1k on these things. Some have those Airpods and Apple watch too. That's almost $2k worth of Apple stuff they're always walking around with.

I've never spent more than $300 on a phone.

 

[RN2RPh]

Yep most techs I talk to live paycheck to paycheck and don't know anything about 401k, Roth IRA, HSA etc. They usually have the latest iPhone though.

Not sure if my techs have the newest iPhone or android model, but they order take-out for lunch & buy drinks, snacks from vending machines almost everday. One time I ask one of the techs "why do you buy a water bottle while we have a water dispenser in our office?" ..and the answer is "It is just convenient for me" !!

 

[mentos]

Not sure if my techs have the newest iPhone or android model, but they order take-out for lunch & buy drinks, snacks from vending machines almost everday. One time I ask one of the techs "why do you buy a water bottle while we have a water dispenser in our office?" ..and the answer is "It is just convenient for me" !!

When we order takeout at work, the techs typically spend $20-30. I usually spend $10-12.

 

[nickw2401]

If you know working nights for 30 years would reduce your lifespan by 5 years…would you still do it?

do you really care if you die at 85 vs 90? All while depleting your life savings in a nursing home

 

[baronzb]

Wait, there's a shortage of women in the midwest? I hadn't noticed. My class was like 80% female. It was a midwest female, which isn't the same thing as a west coast female, though. I wish they all could be California girls.

The greater population. It's comically disproportioned.

 

[Gombrich12]

do you really care if you die at 85 vs 90? All while depleting your life savings in a nursing home

Higher risk of cancer, obesity, diabetes, and heart disease among other things means your quality of life is going to be lower. It's not worth working night shift for a 10% pay bump or whatever they give these days.

 

[libra08]

Higher risk of cancer, obesity, diabetes, and heart disease among other things means your quality of life is going to be lower. It's not worth working night shift for a 10% pay bump or whatever they give these days.

100%. It is just ironic that he brings up nursing home when doing night shift increases his chance of being in one

 

[nickw2401]

Higher risk of cancer, obesity, diabetes, and heart disease among other things means your quality of life is going to be lower. It's not worth working night shift for a 10% pay bump or whatever they give these days.

4 three week vacations a year, travelling, every other week off, little to no stress and not dealing with managers. I'll take it

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

$25/hour minimum wage for low level health care workers by 2027. Is it really worth getting a doctorate degree + debt so you can make $50/hr?



View attachment 379655

By 2027 in California, $25 will be equivalent of $15 today

 

[baronzb]

4 three week vacations a year, travelling, every other week off, little to no stress and not dealing with managers. I'll take it

I've seen people do ok on night shift and people who have horrible problems on it, high blood pressure, headaches, etc. I don't think I have ever seen anyone healthy, however. Most people go to night shift to get away from the toxic culture of day shift. I think evening shift is a good compromise, but night shift has always beckoned.

 

[nickw2401]

healthy is your choice. I go to the gym in the morning afterwork. How many fat nurses do you see....a lot. And it across all shifts

 

[pharm B]

Yes they're always talking about the 13, 14, 15 or whatever. I lost track. It boggles my mind that they spend over $1k on these things. Some have those Airpods and Apple watch too. That's almost $2k worth of Apple stuff they're always walking around with.

I've never spent more than $300 on a phone.

I traded in my iPhone and basically got the new iPhone for about $300.

The AirPods have been on sale numerous times, and one Apple Watch will last 3 or 4 years easily? Can't speak to further since I get a new one around that frequency.

"They have a shiny new phone," is a very Dave Ramsey take, and not necessarily indicative of radically bad spending on their part.

Is avocado toast next?

 

[confettiflyer]

Y’all talking about California salaries and didn’t page me? For shame.

 

[rph3664]

A while back, I came up with the idea of a Vocational School Type Pharmacy degree. Sort of in-between a Technician and a Pharm.D. Most pharmacists jobs out there doesn't require clinical knowledge, ie retail chains. There will always be jobs for you clinical pharmacists, but how about a lower level degree, with graduates coming out with zero student loans, who can then work for $40/hr.

Wouldn't those be called R.Ph.s?

 

[Dred Pirate]

Wouldn't those be called R.Ph.s?

No. Rph is your license. Not your degree. Any pharmd that works utilizing their license (98% of us) are R phs

 

[rph3664]

No. Rph is your license. Not your degree. Any pharmd that works utilizing their license (98% of us) are R phs

I could see, in the decades to come, R.Ph. being some kind of intermediate degree with limited scope of practice, like dental therapists (look those up) or physician's assistants.

 

[PharFromNormal]

I could see, in the decades to come, R.Ph. being some kind of intermediate degree with limited scope of practice, like dental therapists (look those up) or physician's assistants.

The R is for registered…. Would the intermediate degree be called… Register's of Pharmacy?

 

[projektreverb]

I love that people got hung up on a hypothetical name of the degree rather than the concept suggested.

 

[gwarm01]

I love that people got hung up on a hypothetical name of the degree rather than the concept suggested.

Let's open a sub-thread to nail down and refine the language and terms for this proposal, then once the approval committees sign off we can continue here.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I know of a technician who works as a glorified receptionist at a doctor's office in San Antonio and they sign faxes

Janeta Doe, RPht

 

[PharFromNormal]

I know of a technician who works as a glorified receptionist at a doctor's office in San Antonio and they sign faxes

Janeta Doe, RPht

I’ve also heard of some technicians that worked as pharmacists