ophtho oversupply?

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jonnyboy

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just wondering if anyone had anyone else has any concerns about the future of ophtho considering the current oversupply of ophthalmologists and the fact that optometrists are getting more and more rights (please don't turn this into a bash optometrists thread). won't market forces, due to the competition, continue to drive down reimbursements for the md's? granted there is the surgery aspect, but it seems like the reimbursements are dwindling quite quickly there as well. has anyone talked with any ophtho's that are very up to date with this discussion? any thoughts?

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Originally posted by jonnyboy
just wondering if anyone had anyone else has any concerns about the future of ophtho considering the current oversupply of ophthalmologists and the fact that optometrists are getting more and more rights (please don't turn this into a bash optometrists thread). won't market forces, due to the competition, continue to drive down reimbursements for the md's? granted there is the surgery aspect, but it seems like the reimbursements are dwindling quite quickly there as well. has anyone talked with any ophtho's that are very up to date with this discussion? any thoughts?

The job market has always been tight in the larger cities. However, if you're willing to be flexible, then there are plenty of opportunities in smaller cities. Reimbursements have dwindled, but ophthalmologists still make good money. All the fellows and residents from Iowa are finding awesome opportunities and practices.

I'm concerned about the job market, but I know that if I'm willing to live any where in the US then I'll have a job no matter what field I'm in.
 
Can you describe how optometrists are encroaching on opthos territory?

can they prescribe meds or do minor surgeries?

what can an optho do that an optometrist is prohibited from doing?
 
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Originally posted by MacGyver
Can you describe how optometrists are encroaching on opthos territory?

can they prescribe meds or do minor surgeries?

what can an optho do that an optometrist is prohibited from doing?

Please refer to this thread for more details:
http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61743

Optometrists in certain states can do minor laser procedures (e.g., Yag Capsulotomies) and in OK can do PRK but not other refractive procedures. In certain states, optometrists can prescribe some eye drops and medications.

Most of the current surgical interventions are exclusively performed only by ophthalmologists. Go to my FAQ and see the CPT codes for procedures. There are numerous procedures that only eye MDs can do. In addition, many oral medications, some eye drops, and all IV medications are prescribed by eye MDs exclusively, such as immune modulators and oral predisone, chemotherapeutic agents in eye drop form, IV antibiotics/medications, and intravitreal injection of medications and antibiotics.
 
i got a chance to meet 3 very prominent local private practice eyes and they told me to forget about ophtho.. he said the golden years are long gone and it'll get much worse. these guys were in their 50s & 60s and knew what they were talking about, plus these guys were pretty $ savvy..

anyway, it was interesting that ever1 of em told me to go for rads or radonc, they said all their rad colleagues had long time ago retired w/ millions in the bank!! LOL

i'd say do whatever u like teh best, if u love your job you wont mind taking 10-20% cuts in pay.
 
Originally posted by chef
i got a chance to meet 3 very prominent local private practice eyes and they told me to forget about ophtho.. he said the golden years are long gone and it'll get much worse. these guys were in their 50s & 60s and knew what they were talking about, plus these guys were pretty $ savvy..

anyway, it was interesting that ever1 of em told me to go for rads or radonc, they said all their rad colleagues had long time ago retired w/ millions in the bank!! LOL

i'd say do whatever u like teh best, if u love your job you wont mind taking 10-20% cuts in pay.

Especially when the 10-20% pay cut is from a base salary of over $300-500K!

If you talk to most older physicians, they ALL say this no matter what field they're in. The "golden years" are over for most of us in all fields. Face the reality. Medicine is changing, and the rules of medical economics are evolving constantly. The days of making $500K+/ year are coming to an end. All medical students in this decade know this. None of us are really expecting to make millions from medicine.

I'm happy with what I'm doing. I'm actually going to work for the NAVY. Additionally, I'm confident that my private practice colleages will continue to make $175K-$300K a year, academic colleages will make on average $150K a year, and I'll make an average of $120-$150K a year in the military. As Chef said, if you're happy with what you're doing, then go for it. Considering the life style, ophthalmologists have no reason to complain.

Popularity of speciality fluctuate greatly from decade to decade. Ophthalmology was particularly unliked about 10 years ago. Recently, there's been a greater interest because eye MDs are making decent money again. If ophthalmology falls out of favor now, then imagine what it'll be like if there is a shortage of eye surgeons in 10-20 years. This is when most of us will be practicing in our prime years. Similar to the stock market, it is difficult to anticipate the demand and future compensation of any speciality. What pays well today, may not pay well later, and vice versa.

It's interesting that physicians are complaining that they're not making more than several hundreds of thousands of dollars per year when our economy is doing so poor and there are millions of people without jobs. The business majors who can't find jobs after the dot.com fiasco are fleeing to medicine. There are so few jobs out there that will provide you with a six figure salary, especially in our current poor economic environment.

Go into the medical speciality that makes you happy. If you're good and competent, then you'll do well. But if you're expecting to make millions, then consider another career.
 
"But if you're expecting to make millions, then consider another career."

Not true. Still possible to make millions. Many orthopods, neurosurgeons, radiologists, etc. easily clear several million after 10 years in practice or less.

Agree that you must enjoy what you are doing. Dont pick something because of prestige or because your parents can brag to their friends.
 
Originally posted by oldandtired
"But if you're expecting to make millions, then consider another career."

Not true. Still possible to make millions. Many orthopods, neurosurgeons, radiologists, etc. easily clear several million after 10 years in practice or less.

Agree that you must enjoy what you are doing. Dont pick something because of prestige or because your parents can brag to their friends.

I am talking about millions per year. Ophthos can clear several millions after 10 years in practice too. The average retinal surgeon can make $400-500K/year. The average private general ophthalmologist makes $250K/year; therefore, after 10 years of practice he/she will clear at least the $2 million mark. Actually internal medicine physicians make on average $150K year; they'll clear one million in 10 years too. :)

Very few medical specialities, however, will allow you to make over one million per year.
 
I'm not so worried about the current status of ophthalmology, I just wonder what the future holds for ophthalmology when OD schools are cranking out bunches of optometrists and they are gaining more and more rights and respect from consumers. I have a hard time believing that reimbursements won't fall further and further as there becomes an even greater oversupply of eye care providers. Even if reimbursements don't drop, the number of patients seen per eye provider will--and thus potential income. Who is to say that optometrists won't be performing LASIK, cataract surgery in 5-10 years? I know it will require legislation changes and new training on the optometry side, but why won't it happen at some point? (please, no optometry bashing)
 
Originally posted by jonnyboy
I'm not so worried about the current status of ophthalmology, I just wonder what the future holds for ophthalmology when OD schools are cranking out bunches of optometrists and they are gaining more and more rights and respect from consumers. I have a hard time believing that reimbursements won't fall further and further as there becomes an even greater oversupply of eye care providers. Even if reimbursements don't drop, the number of patients seen per eye provider will--and thus potential income. Who is to say that optometrists won't be performing LASIK, cataract surgery in 5-10 years? I know it will require legislation changes and new training on the optometry side, but why won't it happen at some point? (please, no optometry bashing)

I don't have a crystal ball. No one can really predict the future. This is similar to predicting stocks. Can you tell me if Intel or Microsoft will still be as lucrative in 5 decades?

All of medicine is feeling the crunch. We have R.N.s with advanced degrees, PAs in primary care, etc...

I can tell you one thing. There won't be a boom of new residency spots for eye surgeons. The number of surgical residencies in the US are highly regulated. There are only a limited number of places that can offer ACGME approved training programs. If ODs change their training enough, then it is slightly possible that these ODs can compete for the same training programs as MDs. The outcome will be to produce the same number of surgeons per year. I see this unlikely to happen because residency programs require a medical degree to enter the training program.

In addition, it will be difficult or impossible for people who aren't residency trained to find malpractice insurance. No insurance entity is ever going to insure an untrained OD or an OD trained at a non-accredited institution for surgery. The liability is simply too high.

The AAO and current physicians will fight very hard to keep the standards high. If you don't feel that this is the case, then I suggest searching for another field. No one is able to predict what will happen in the future. The key to success is being able to adapt. If medicine changes, then learn to adapt or get out.
 
Andrew is correct. There's no way you can predict the future. But one way to think about it is: the baby boomers are aging and with age there will be an increase in retinal problems (eg mac deg) as well as other visual problems. More people will need eye care. I have no hard evidence for this so those who do can comment.

And another thing... 5-10 years from now. Sure, maybe optometrists might be able to do LASIK. But by then there will be something else, something newer that they probably won't be able to do. Its kind of like PRK vs LASIK now.

With advancements in adaptive optics, wave-front abberation correction and new lasers, things will change. there will be a new generation of vision correction and contact lenses. Its kind of like aging of a computer: 1 human year = 7 computer years.
 
I wouldn't worry about an oversupply of eyecare providers as a result of an oversupply of Optometrists (which there is). Unfortuantely many newly minted OD's are running right to Costco and Walmart and the like to be refractionists........not much competition for a residency-trained Ophthalmologist.

Of course if your goal is to be a general Ophthalmologist or comprehensive Ophthalmologist (as I've heard them called), then you might have a bit of competition.

Hey, get a subspeciality..........retinal, glaucoma, cornea, neuro, peds etc.,...........say hello to a few OD's and you will have more "business" than you can handle.

Just my opinion from what I see.:D
 
I'll second what TomOD said. General (or "comprehensive") ophtho v. optometry is definitely a turf battle, but an ophtho who specializes can get referrals from both OD and general ophtho.

As for the surgical future of optometry, the mere mention of this topic can throw both sides into a tantrum. But believe me, the surgical future of optometry is a long way off, and if it ever happens, will not be much of a market force. Although almost all states allow optometrists to treat glaucoma and prescribe meds for anterior segment diseases, there is still a very healthy amount of referral to ophthos going on in this arena. Most of the older optometrists will only treat the simplest of anterior seg disease, and will refer anything that doesn't respond to treatment within a few days. There are a lot of optometrists who, although licensed to do so, will NOT treat glaucoma. Why? Glaucoma is a downward spiral. At best you can delay the onset of blindness beyond the life expectancy. But if an optometrist treats a glaucoma patient, and that last optic nerve fiber snuffs out long before the patient assumes room temperature, it could end up in court. Every optometrist has a voice in their head that says "don't be the last one to see the patient before they go blind." If a patient goes blind under an optho's care, they can argue that everything medically possible was done for the patient. Period. If the same patient were to go blind with the same treatment by an optometrist, the plaintiff's attorney is going to want to know why an MD wasn't consulted, and the optometrist will go down, regardless of their skill, experience, or competence.

As for surgical care, I highly doubt optometry is going to take over. Refractive surgery? Maybe, but I doubt it. Think about the term "refractive surgery." Who does refractive care best? Optometry. Who does surgery best? Ophthalmology. Ideally, it should be a team approac, as it usually is. But in the real world, the surgeon gets the dough and the glory, and the optometrist does the pre-op, post-op, and contact lens care when needed for a modest salary and little or no glory. Will optometrists take over cataract surgery? No way. The risk of retinal detachment, endophthalmitis, etc. are too high for the average optometrist to stomach, especially considering that ophthalmologists would be falling all over themselves to testify against an optometrist in a case that went bad. Furthermore, optometrists are not trained in pre-operative H&P, nor are they trained to handle intraoperative anesthesia, and very few optometrists have ever even tied a suture. These changes in scope of practice would require a dramatic shift in optometric education, which will not likely happen any time soon, if at all.

MDs get pretty concerned about the scope of practice of optometry, but most of it is unfounded. All optometrists know what the legal scope of their licensure is, and most of them refer patients far below the maximum scope of their licensure. Yes, some optometrists treat minor eye disease, and it may have a slight dampering effect on a market that was once dominated by general ophthos. But for the future generation of ophthos, rest assured that optometry can handle the blepharitis, meibomianitis, dry eye, and contact lens overwear. You will still get the chalazion removals, blepharoplasties, central ulcers, narrow angles, and anything that looks remotely wrong with the retina, plus all the cataracts, macular holes, diabetic retinopathy, macular degeneration, and central retinal vein occlusions you can handle. Added bonus: the optometrist that refers them will most likely have already done the refraction for you. If you ever worry about an optometric takeover, remember that even the optometrists you worry about the most cannot imagine life without you.
 
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