OMFS questions

[S Files]

Hello,
Some questions. I'm interested in OMFS and will be applying next year. Are the MD combined programs more/less competitive than the 4 year ones? Are all the MD ones 6 years, I've heard some are 5. When is the MD portion done (beginning or end of training)? Do residents receive a stipend during all 6 years, or only during clinical training?
Thanks in advance.

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[tx oms]

As far as the competitiveness goes, there are basically some kick ass programs, some average programs, and some "country club"/easy/less sought programs. Their competitiveness is based on this scale, not whether they are four or six. Of couse, real men do six. There, I said it. There is a turd in the punch bowl and I'm not afraid to admit it.

Some MD programs are 5. I think two, to be precise.

The MD portion of the program varies WIDELY depending on the program. So does the pay.

I recommend you read more on this board, talk to residents at your school, do externships, and generally start paying attention in order to get a feel for the different types of programs and which you would prefer. If you have a sack you'll go to a six year, if you have a hatchet wound you'll look for a four year. DAMN!

 

[toofache32]

Nebraska and Case Western are 5-year MD programs.

Don't listen too closely to TX OMS. That's just his sack talking. If all you want is private practice, then a 4-year program is the way to go. We all charge the same amount and do the same procedures in practice.

If you want an academic career or maybe a fellowship, then the MD helps. I don't really agree with it, but I think it helps. With that being said, my program is a 6-year but we only have 1 (out of about 10) full-time faculty with a medical degree. And he's not even our strongest player.

 

[WestCoast]

I cant say which is more competitive, but at my program, we didn't invite anybody below a 95 on part I this time around for the 6 yr spots.

 

[omfs44]

Be a man...go all out and do 6 year program. it'll all be worth it when you do your ob/gyn rotation. Tons of stuff to learn and SEE!!!
i don't regret doing 6, but the usmle step I was one mxxxxrfxxking test to study for especially if the program doesn't have 1st and 2nd year medschool and tried to study during your intern year when they make you work like a dog. way too stressful!

 

[esclavo]

Their competitiveness is based on this scale, not whether they are four or six. Of couse, real men do six. There, I said it. There is a turd in the punch bowl and I'm not afraid to admit it.

If you have a sack you'll go to a six year, if you have a hatchet wound you'll look for a four year. DAMN!

Great advice... I just mailed this to James Swift president of the ABOMS (he said he'd ear mark your board exam and personally will officiate your oral boards to see how much you learned in your 6 year program), Ed Ellis (immediate past president) at Parkland, Zide, and many others.

Some hypothesize that overextending ones self is an overcompensation to hide other personal inadequacies...(ie.. hypogonadism, which hasn't been shown to improve with more letters behind ones name )

All said, it is nice to have two different tracks. The MD guys show that we have every bit the capacity as the ENT or plastic guys. The four year guys prove that we can fill the piggy bank with the best of them

 

[esclavo]

Another question is if you are going to practice bread and butter oral surgery, why would you do the MD? Personal fulfillment or inferiority complex are the only things that come to mind.

Each program is different. I have two attendings with MD's and one without. The one without makes almost twice as much as the other two. Our youngest attending went to Harvard (OMFS)and then Maryland (surgical oncology with microvascular surgery). When he arrived here at our 4 year institution, our chief resident could operate circles around him. He said it was very humbling. He said that our residents (especially chief resident) will operate more and see a wider variety of cases than any program that he has been affiliated with specifically MGH or Maryland (both 6 year programs). I wouldn't count on being better trained by virtue of whether it is a six or four year program. I am envious of the six years for some of the increased medical knowledge (minus OB/gyne and psych)... but I'm an old bastard and I had to get on with life. I couldn't afford to practice two less years (just subtract your two/three most productive years and that is the opportunity cost of going to med school). 12 total years was the right choice for me. The six years will have plenty to say about this... I stirred the tird in the punch bowl a little.

 

[OMFSdoc]

Another question is if you are going to practice bread and butter oral surgery, why would you do the MD? Personal fulfillment or inferiority complex are the only things that come to mind.

Each program is different. I have two attendings with MD's and one without. The one without makes almost twice as much as the other two. Our youngest attending went to Harvard (OMFS)and then Maryland (surgical oncology with microvascular surgery). When he arrived here at our 4 year institution, our chief resident could operate circles around him. He said it was very humbling. He said that our residents (especially chief resident) will operate more and see a wider variety of cases than any program that he has been affiliated with specifically MGH or Maryland (both 6 year programs). I wouldn't count on being better trained by virtue of whether it is a six or four year program. I am envious of the six years for some of the increased medical knowledge (minus OB/gyne and psych)... but I'm an old bastard and I had to get on with life. I couldn't afford to practice two less years (just subtract your two/three most productive years and that is the opportunity cost of going to med school). 12 total years was the right choice for me. The six years will have plenty to say about this... I stirred the tird in the punch bowl a little.

Always an exciting topic......there are good reasons to do both. As far as competitiveness goes, both are tough to get into. If you really only want to do thirds and implants then do a 4 year. Even if you want to do some orthognathic and trauma, a good 4 year will definately do it. AND if you took any time off between undergrad-dental school-OMFS and are not getting younger, do a 4 year. HOWEVER, if you are thinking of academics or doing a fellowship after training, do a 6 year. I am finding the extra medical school knowledge to be of benefit to me. I am gaining a better understanding of organ systems and disease progression with medical school, others don't think it's necessary. Personal choice. Also, I see some of my chiefs looking for jobs and there are some practices that put MD preferred on their job description. This is probably only about 10% max. of jobs, but they do exist. There are amazing 4 year programs out there and amazing 6 year ones, however, some crappy 6 year programs flash their med school in front of you and try to mask their mediocre OMFS training, try not to fall for this. All in all, do what makes you happy. I wanted the 6 year due to the fellowship potential, academic potential and medical knowledge (some say they can get it out of a book, but nobody ever reads what they don't have to). Do whatever you want, but try to go to a place where they encourage academic OMFS and let you cut first and foremost, and get the MD if you think you may need it.

 

[esclavo]

Always an exciting topic......there are good reasons to do both. As far as competitiveness goes, both are tough to get into. If you really only want to do thirds and implants then do a 4 year. Even if you want to do some orthognathic and trauma, a good 4 year will definately do it. AND if you took any time off between undergrad-dental school-OMFS and are not getting younger, do a 4 year. HOWEVER, if you are thinking of academics or doing a fellowship after training, do a 6 year. I am finding the extra medical school knowledge to be of benefit to me. I am gaining a better understanding of organ systems and disease progression with medical school, others don't think it's necessary. Personal choice. Also, I see some of my chiefs looking for jobs and there are some practices that put MD preferred on their job description. This is probably only about 10% max. of jobs, but they do exist. There are amazing 4 year programs out there and amazing 6 year ones, however, some crappy 6 year programs flash their med school in front of you and try to mask their mediocre OMFS training, try not to fall for this. All in all, do what makes you happy. I wanted the 6 year due to the fellowship potential, academic potential and medical knowledge (some say they can get it out of a book, but nobody ever reads what they don't have to). Do whatever you want, but try to go to a place where they encourage academic OMFS and let you cut first and foremost, and get the MD if you think you may need it.

Great! Now you've pulled the poop out of the punch bowl and made it potable again, what are we going to fling at each other? Always a peacemaker in the bunch... screw it up for the rest of us trouble makers....

 

[toofache32]

I agree that there are good and bad 4-year programs, and good and bad 6-year programs. The MD has very little to do with the quality of the training because you learn our stuff in residency, not in dental or medical school.

 

[north2southOMFS]

I disagree, i think i learned how to be a better oral surgeon than you during my one week on urology.

 

[Doggie]

I give better rectal exams now that I am in a 6yr program!

 

[Bifid Uvula]

Great! Now you've pulled the poop out of the punch bowl and made it potable again, what are we going to fling at each other? Always a peacemaker in the bunch... screw it up for the rest of us trouble makers....

I'm predicting you are gonna have SDN withdrawal when you come back on service....

 

[toofache32]

I give better rectal exams now that I am in a 6yr program!

Same with pelvic exams....it's all gums, right?

 

[Doggie]

Same with pelvic exams....it's all gums, right?

My favorite is when you discover a tetratoma in their ovaries, you can still charge them for shucking teeth.

 

[toofache32]

My favorite is when you discover a tetratoma in their ovaries, you can still charge them for shucking teeth.

I guess that would be a soft-tissue impaction.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I give better rectal exams now that I am in a 6yr program!

Opens up a world of new social opportunities for you, eh!

 

[esclavo]

I'm predicting you are gonna have SDN withdrawal when you come back on service....

"passing gas" does offer some diversion time...when I come back, all my diversion time is going to get shifted to slave drivin'

 

[Doggie]

Opens up a world of new social opportunities for you, eh!

I'm gonna try to not use my dominant hand when I do those exams. No wonder my potato chips have been tasting funny lately.

 

[S Files]

I'm gonna try to not use my dominant hand when I do those exams. No wonder my potato chips have been tasting funny lately.

Although this thread has become somewhat hijacked, thanx for the advice. Didn't find out if all 6 yrs are stipend, or just the clinical portion (i.e. is stipend given during the med portion). I've pretty much decided to do the 6 year route, mainly b/c I like academia, and would like to do a cleft-craniofacial fellowship. Problem is my grades kinda suck...did my mba @ the same time and partied too much I got 93+ on boards though. Don't mean to turn this into a "hey guys do you think i'll get in" post, so i'll ask, what are these country club type programs?? Although I'm still in my 20's. I'm at the point where I don't mind working my ass off, but don't want to get my ass....well you get the point.

 

[OMFSdoc]

Although this thread has become somewhat hijacked, thanx for the advice. Didn't find out if all 6 yrs are stipend, or just the clinical portion (i.e. is stipend given during the med portion). I've pretty much decided to do the 6 year route, mainly b/c I like academia, and would like to do a cleft-craniofacial fellowship. Problem is my grades kinda suck...did my mba @ the same time and partied too much I got 93+ on boards though. Don't mean to turn this into a "hey guys do you think i'll get in" post, so i'll ask, what are these country club type programs?? Although I'm still in my 20's. I'm at the point where I don't mind working my ass off, but don't want to get my ass....well you get the point.

Some 6 year programs pay during med school, some don't. Usually dependent on if you have to take call during med school or not. Take call-$$$ / Don't take call-broke. The choice will not be up to you. It is program dependant on if they make u take call or not. Some schools are state tuition and some are private, some even don't charge you for med school at all. Again, program dependant, nothing is really universal. Country clubs are nice, but make sure you learn something while there, otherwise, what's the point, you go in knowing nothing and come out knowing nothing, kinda pointless. Some programs focus on trauma, some on orthognathic, some on dentoalveolar, some are a good mix (I recommend these). Go on a bunch of program websites to see what they are all about, and do externships. Ask around your dental schools OMFS residents, and residents on externships what's good and what sucks. You have decent boards, not so good that your grades, as you put it "suck" but you never know, boards are HUGE!!!

Good luck

 

[esclavo]

Some 6 year programs pay during med school, some don't. Usually dependent on if you have to take call during med school or not. Take call-$$$ / Don't take call-broke. The choice will not be up to you. It is program dependant on if they make u take call or not. Some schools are state tuition and some are private, some even don't charge you for med school at all. Again, program dependant, nothing is really universal. Country clubs are nice, but make sure you learn something while there, otherwise, what's the point, you go in knowing nothing and come out knowing nothing, kinda pointless. Some programs focus on trauma, some on orthognathic, some on dentoalveolar, some are a good mix (I recommend these). Go on a bunch of program websites to see what they are all about, and do externships. Ask around your dental schools OMFS residents, and residents on externships what's good and what sucks. You have decent boards, not so good that your grades, as you put it "suck" but you never know, boards are HUGE!!!

Good luck

Read clinical and main OR surgery logs. They don't lie. Ask to see the ADA survey or the DDS4DDS log books. These show what operating activity is really like. See if the program has a REGULAR didactic session. Some don't have jack or some 6 year programs pawn all the "book" stuff off on the medical school so you actually don't know jack about your own specialty to the point where you'll feel confident for boards.