New FDA-approved drug, Aduhelm,for Alzheimer's

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It didn't change my perspective all that much. My perspective on adu was that it probably did have an effect, but given a) the small magnitude of effect, b) the very significant adverse events in a non-trivial fraction of participants, and c) the messiness of the way the trials were conducted, we needed another study at minimum with unambiguous results before it would be worthy of approval. While lec isn't the same drug, it also had more robust patient selection criteria, and so I'm guessing that this is why the outcomes data is cleaner. Had Biogen run this study with adu instead and gotten the same result as they did with lec, I'd be fine with adu being approved right now. I still don't think lec is a particularly good option for use across the board given the low magnitude of benefit and still significant ARIA incidence, but it may be reasonable to use with careful patient selection.



"reasonable likelihood" should never be the basis of drug approval outside of something like a humanitarian device exemption. The last minute shifting of approval standards to seemingly whatever Biogen wanted them to be is exactly the problem here.


Maybe, maybe not - RCT with this as the endpoint or GTFO. If you haven't yet learned to replace blind enthusiasm with healthy skepticism regarding assumptions like this when it comes to the effects of AD trials, then you truly are a lost cause.

Although you open the door for aducanumab to have an effect, but you would prevent others from using it. You either total disregard for the autonomy of patients and peers. Weird control issues.

Reasonable likelihood is the threshold for accelerated approval. That's the FDA choice, not the advisory board. This happened with many meds, including Northera. Only 10% of accelerated approvals are later withdrawn, 70% go onto full approval.

Look, you've been totally wrong in this thread. You've been insulting to others who don't drink your kool aide by holding them in "contempt," you've called this a "travesty," and come up with unfounded charges of "data manipulation." Stop digging, start learning.

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Although you open the door for aducanumab to have an effect, but you would prevent others from using it. You either total disregard for the autonomy of patients and peers. Weird control issues.

"Control issues" are exactly the point of the FDA regulatory process - protecting both patients and non-expert clinicians from unscrupulous advertisement and proposed indications for pharmaceuticals. Based on your attitude throughout this thread, I assume it must sound odd to you that not everything that the pharma rep tells you when they bring lunch to your office can be taken at face value, but sometimes there really is deception there.

Reasonable likelihood is the threshold for accelerated approval. That's the FDA choice, not the advisory board. This happened with many meds, including Northera. Only 10% of accelerated approvals are later withdrawn, 70% go onto full approval.

The standard of evidence for AA is the same as for full approval, just allowing use of a surrogate endpoint when a clinical endpoint is too difficult or time consuming to measure directly, and the surrogate endpoint is well-correlated to the clinical endpoint. In this case, both of these caveats were not true, as not only had the clinical endpoint data already been collected, but the surrogate endpoint had never been definitively correlated with the clinical endpoint. It was a bastardization of the process in multiple ways without even getting into the way that companies manipulate this process by dragging their feet in getting stage 4 data to the FDA to ensure they get a nice long period of sales before any potential threats arise to their approval.

Look, you've been totally wrong in this thread. You've been insulting to others who don't drink your kool aide by holding them in "contempt," you've called this a "travesty," and come up with unfounded charges of "data manipulation." Stop digging, start learning.

You think the people drinking "kool aide" are the experts in the FDA scientific advisory committee, the vast majority of clinician-scientists, the laundry list of academic institutions refusing to adminster adu (many of which were core to the AB hypothesis in the first place), and anyone with fundamental skepticism regarding the interaction between government and industry -- but not those cheerleading press releases by the same company that recently created a Frankenstein's monster of a post-hoc study mash-up to justify accelerated approval with none of the usual standards being met? Yeah, I think we're done here. Everyone can see this exchange and come to their own conclusions about who is who.
 
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"Control issues" are exactly the point of the FDA regulatory process - protecting both patients and non-expert clinicians from unscrupulous advertisement and proposed indications for pharmaceuticals. Based on your attitude throughout this thread, I assume it must sound odd to you that not everything that the pharma rep tells you when they bring lunch to your office can be taken at face value, but sometimes there really is deception there.



The standard of evidence for AA is the same as for full approval, just allowing use of a surrogate endpoint when a clinical endpoint is too difficult or time consuming to measure directly, and the surrogate endpoint is well-correlated to the clinical endpoint. In this case, both of these caveats were not true, as not only had the clinical endpoint data already been collected, but the surrogate endpoint had never been definitively correlated with the clinical endpoint. It was a bastardization of the process in multiple ways without even getting into the way that companies manipulate this process by dragging their feet in getting stage 4 data to the FDA to ensure they get a nice long period of sales before any potential threats arise to their approval.



You think the people drinking "kool aide" are the experts in the FDA scientific advisory committee, the vast majority of clinician-scientists, the laundry list of academic institutions refusing to adminster adu (many of which were core to the AB hypothesis in the first place), and anyone with fundamental skepticism regarding the interaction between government and industry -- but not those cheerleading press releases by the same company that recently created a Frankenstein's monster of a post-hoc study mash-up to justify accelerated approval with none of the usual standards being met? Yeah, I think we're done here. Everyone can see this exchange and come to their own conclusions about who is who.

You do not work for the FDA. You have no jurisdiction or expertise in this matter. While you may have delusions that you are in control of prescribing, this is exactly the same point of view as the anti-thrombolysis ER doctors. Perhaps you can start a blog with these guys.

What you need to do is quit your job, apply and get a job with the FDA, and then you can, with enough time and good choices, get into a directorship position, once Billy Dunn retires I suppose. From there you can control what drugs get on the market. You can apply YOUR thoughts to accelerated approval. Until then, frankly, you have zero control over what the FDA does.

The experts in the FDA advisory committee are advisors. While you are not at that level, you are free to start blogs, yell at clouds, and hold your own opinions. But before you do that, you might want to actually learn a bit. For example, you might want to learn about the accelerated approval pathway. Like you, I was ignorant of this pathway because it was never used in AD. But you are incorrect in the evidentiary standard. Learn here. They are looking for reasonable likelihoods, not full approval, which always requires a confirmatory trial. You were wrong to be shocked above, they "made an additional post-market efficacy trial a condition of approval!" You are also not correct about Biogen, assuming they don't abandon the drug, has already enrolled the first person into aducanumab's confirmatory phase 3b/4 trial.

So now let's see, you've been wrong about the science, and the FDA approval process. I'm happy to help you learn, but as they say, I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

I don't deal with pharma reps, although I love lunch. I deal with people in development. You clearly don't work in that role either.
 
Neglect: “Being wrong is fine, but be professional about it”

Clearly you are both very smart, but all of the ad hominem actually makes it very difficult to follow any sort of logical trail.

I am obviously happy that there has been progress but unfortunately I think the very high cost to clinical benefit ratio of these new drugs cannot be overlooked. I think prescribing/coverage of drugs like this is a tough ethical quandary.
 
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Neglect: “Being wrong is fine, but be professional about it”

Clearly you are both very smart, but all of the ad hominem actually makes it very difficult to follow any sort of logical trail.

I am obviously happy that there has been progress but unfortunately I think the very high cost to clinical benefit ratio of these new drugs cannot be overlooked. I think prescribing/coverage of drugs like this is a tough ethical quandary.

Check your internal biases and stigmas. When cancer drugs extend life by months, they are used by oncologists with full attention to patient wellbeing. The new ALS drug is harmless, but has very little evidence of benefit and costs 158K a year. That's about 6 people treated with adu and around two with ocrelizumab. And yet this will be prescribed, taken, and paid for, because ALS is so horrible. We are used to Alzheimer's disease being a part of "normal senility," so this gets baked into how we approach these drugs.

This is also the start of a cultural shift. These biases famously disallowed the NY Times from printing the words "breast cancer," and instead used disease of the "chest wall." We are now entering a time when Alzheimer's disease will be treated as the chronic disease it is, and not dismissed as being equivalent to gray hair.

So who gets drugs that can delay progression of symptoms in AD? Is it a 51 year old housewife? Or is it a 63 year old judge? A 84 year old retired mover? Best let individual doctors, patients, and their families decide and then fight the insurance like normal.
 
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:poke:

Just a medical student so I’m not sure of the clinical significance (forget about the statistical significance for a second) in the drug’s primary end point… Is a decrease in the CDR-SB of 0.45 meaningful? I mean the individual would need a decrease of at least 1 to show a deference, no? Also a rate of 20% of ARIA in the Lecanemab group…

 
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Subject fell, seemingly due to ARIA. Be very careful with those who are APOE44. Likely will need more monitoring.

Just a medical student so I’m not sure of the clinical significance (forget about the statistical significance for a second) in the drug’s primary end point… Is a decrease in the CDR-SB of 0.45 meaningful? I mean the individual would need a decrease of at least 1 to show a deference, no? Also a rate of 20% of ARIA in the Lecanemab group…


Yes. A difference of 1/2 point in the CDR is meaningful for many reasons. Firstly, because CDR barely moves in the early disease. In aggregate, people with MCI/early AD will only change 1.5 points on the CDR over 1.5 years. So asking for MORE change is difficult. CDR is very meaningful as an endpoint.

Secondly, this discussion = paternalism. Perhaps this isn't meaningful to a person who's crippled with arthritis. But this decision should be left with the patient in consultation with their doctor.

Thirdly, individual rates and response rates will differ. Those who quickly progress, take them off.

Fourthly, it is safe to say that projected differences after 1.5 years will continue to diverge. So 1/2 a point at 1.5 years will be 1 point at 3 years. This disease lasts 10-20 years.
 
Lecanemab joins aducanumab. The FDA granted lec accelerated approval today based on the phase 2b trial showing robust amyloid clearance. It should be immediately covered by Medicare, but won’t be due to stigma and prejudice against brain disease and old age. Medicare will wait for full approval while patients, who paid into Medicare, get worse.
 
The standard of evidence for AA is the same as for full approval, just allowing use of a surrogate endpoint when a clinical endpoint is too difficult or time consuming to measure directly, and the surrogate endpoint is well-correlated to the clinical endpoint. In this case, both of these caveats were not true, as not only had the clinical endpoint data already been collected, but the surrogate endpoint had never been definitively correlated with the clinical endpoint. It was a bastardization of the process in multiple ways without even getting into the way that companies manipulate this process by dragging their feet in getting stage 4 data to the FDA to ensure they get a nice long period of sales before any potential threats arise to their approval.

On Friday the bottom line vote was 6-0 for full approval.

Here's the discussion: June 9, 2023 Meeting of the Peripheral and Central Nervous System Drugs Advisory Committee (PCNS)
 
Lecanemab joins aducanumab. The FDA granted lec accelerated approval today based on the phase 2b trial showing robust amyloid clearance. It should be immediately covered by Medicare, but won’t be due to stigma and prejudice against brain disease and old age. Medicare will wait for full approval while patients, who paid into Medicare, get worse.
I think you're oversimplifying things a bit here. I'm primary care and so, while I'm no expert in Alzheimer's, I do see and treat it not infrequently.

My concerns (and I suspect some are shared by the FDA panel involved in this and Medicare) are:

These drugs are ludicrously expensive. I mean, just stupidly expensive given that this is a chronic condition. The Hep C drugs are also stupidly expensive, but you only take them for 3-6 months not potentially 20 years. This I suspect is Medicare's main concern. $56,000/year is a lot of money.

We have a not great history of approving drugs based on promising mechanisms or surrogate endpoints that don't end up really panning out. When's the last time you saw someone on aliskiren, to name a popular example from the primary care world? The AAFP has even started pushing really hard for what they call POEMs - patient-oriented evidence that matters. Its why beta blockers are now 3rd line for the treatment of hypertension. Sure they lower BP really well, but they don't decrease the rates of CV disease or CKD anywhere close to what ACEs, CCB, and diuretics do. This would be the other area that I suspect Medicare really cares about. If they're going to pay 56k/year, there had better be some pretty solid outcome data.

Our history of Alzheimer's medications aren't great either. Sure, I write for Aricept and Namenda as much as anyone but we all know the outcomes data is kinda meh.

For Aduhelm at least, the side effect profile was to my read more than a little worrisome. I was always taught that cerebral edema was a fairly bad thing.
 
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I think you're oversimplifying things a bit here. I'm primary care and so, while I'm no expert in Alzheimer's, I do see and treat it not infrequently.

My concerns (and I suspect some are shared by the FDA panel involved in this and Medicare) are:

These drugs are ludicrously expensive. I mean, just stupidly expensive given that this is a chronic condition. The Hep C drugs are also stupidly expensive, but you only take them for 3-6 months not potentially 20 years. This I suspect is Medicare's main concern. $56,000/year is a lot of money.

We have a not great history of approving drugs based on promising mechanisms or surrogate endpoints that don't end up really panning out. When's the last time you saw someone on aliskiren, to name a popular example from the primary care world? The AAFP has even started pushing really hard for what they call POEMs - patient-oriented evidence that matters. Its why beta blockers are now 3rd line for the treatment of hypertension. Sure they lower BP really well, but they don't decrease the rates of CV disease or CKD anywhere close to what ACEs, CCB, and diuretics do. This would be the other area that I suspect Medicare really cares about. If they're going to pay 56k/year, there had better be some pretty solid outcome data.

Our history of Alzheimer's medications aren't great either. Sure, I write for Aricept and Namenda as much as anyone but we all know the outcomes data is kinda meh.

For Aduhelm at least, the side effect profile was to my read more than a little worrisome. I was always taught that cerebral edema was a fairly bad thing.

Lecanemab is 26,500 per year. To put that into context, bad first line MS drugs are at least 70K. Keytruda currently has accelerated approval for several indications (same as lec and adu) and is about 8X more expensive at 170K.

Aliskiren is way outside my expertise. Cerebral edema due to amyloid removal is not. These cases are typically asymptomatic. Although prevention is key, they can be treated when severe.

The FDA was right about amyloid as a surrogate marker of disease. Every drug that removes amyloid fully to visually negative on PET works. Those that don't, don't.
 
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Full approval of lecanemab today with a reasonable black box warning for ARIA.
 
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Donanemab has positive results, published in Jama. All the haters were wrong. Reading the above like like opening a time capsule.

 
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Donanemab has positive results, published in Jama. All the haters were wrong. Reading the above like like opening a time capsule.

For a non-neurologist, how well does the Alzheimer Disease Rating Scale correlate to actual patient function?
 
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Someone who works with/sees more dementia, I'd love a practical explanation of how clinically significant these findings are.
 
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For a non-neurologist, how well does the Alzheimer Disease Rating Scale correlate to actual patient function?

It includes a pure functional scale called the ADCS-ADL.

But looking at the scales isn't as useful as looking at delays in progression. We now see that across all the mabs, we delay progression about 5-6 months over 18 months, so up to 1/2 a year over 1.5 years.

Someone who works with/sees more dementia, I'd love a practical explanation of how clinically significant these findings are.

See above. In aggregate, more time spent in mild disease. Lilly did an analysis at a year and showed that 0.47 of those treated with don had zero change on CDR (a measure of function) vs. 0.29 on placebo.

So in short, they helped validate the amyloid approach.
 
For a non-neurologist, how well does the Alzheimer Disease Rating Scale correlate to actual patient function?
There are obviously a lot of criticisms, due to 24% patients developing cerebral edema( and I suspect they will be worse off in long term due to that) and additional 8% developed significant infusion related AI and 4 deaths.

Also keep in mind rivastigmine (which we consider a dud) showed 0.7 points improvement in MMSE in 6 months, plus slowed decline in their studies. Don showed 0.5 points less decline after 1.5 years( compared to placebo). Hardly significant in my mind for a progressive disease. This study further validated that there is no direct correlation with amyloid and dementia
 
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There are obviously a lot of criticisms, due to 24% patients developing cerebral edema( and I suspect they will be worse off in long term due to that) and additional 8% developed significant infusion related AI and 4 deaths.

Also keep in mind rivastigmine (which we consider a dud) showed 0.7 points improvement in MMSE in 6 months, plus slowed decline in their studies. Don showed 0.5 points less decline after 1.5 years( compared to placebo). Hardly significant in my mind for a progressive disease. This study further validated that there is no direct correlation with amyloid and dementia

The data shows no significant difference between those who got ARIA and those who didn't. So your suspicion is unfounded, although subgroup analysis is a weak and limited look at the data.

Your belief that acetylcholinesterase inhibitors "slowed decline" is false. These medications increase acetylcholine. There is no mechanism by which they can slow decline. The fact you would write this means you shouldn't write anything else on the matter.

But it gets worse, because you say the data validates the idea that "there is no direct correlation with amyloid and dementia." I'm hard pressed to think of a less intelligent thought. I suspect you got this meme from other cynics who look at differences within the treatment group, but ignore the actual trial results.

In brief, donanemab gets rid of amyloid (it targets fibular amyloid). It met primary, secondary, and biomarker outcomes, including lowering soluble tau. So the conclusion from those who have much more expertise than you: getting rid of amyloid slows the disease.
 
The data shows no significant difference between those who got ARIA and those who didn't. So your suspicion is unfounded, although subgroup analysis is a weak and limited look at the data.

Your belief that acetylcholinesterase inhibitors "slowed decline" is false. These medications increase acetylcholine. There is no mechanism by which they can slow decline. The fact you would write this means you shouldn't write anything else on the matter.

But it gets worse, because you say the data validates the idea that "there is no direct correlation with amyloid and dementia." I'm hard pressed to think of a less intelligent thought. I suspect you got this meme from other cynics who look at differences within the treatment group, but ignore the actual trial results.

In brief, donanemab gets rid of amyloid (it targets fibular amyloid). It met primary, secondary, and biomarker outcomes, including lowering soluble tau. So the conclusion from those who have much more expertise than you: getting rid of amyloid slows the disease.
Based on your lack of reasonable critical analysis of these results and amyloid studies over the years, I have to think you are compromised in some way. Majority of neurologists are skeptical about these results and their clinical significance and rightly so. You have been touting this drug even before these results came out, which tells me something.

You can sit in your bubble and think you know what you are talking about. Most of your points above are invalid. All 6 trials that lowered soluble tau previously have failed (4 for AD and 2 for PSP). Clearing amyloid has no direct/linear correlation with atrophy or dementia or clinical decline. No single patient has ever "Improved" with lowering of brain amyloid. Also compare your results to placebo (which was Saline! in this study). At least should have used a reasonable placebo when comparing such a toxic drug. Placebo did a great job btw, lowered decline by 2 points or something like that!! pretty close to Don.

Some people are trying too hard to prove something that's not there yet. Maybe its sunken cost fallacy for some people. I honestly feel for them but more for patients who will be prescribed this elixir by some!! Why do you think all these neurologists are saying no and are skeptical about this drug??Most of us would love to have a real drug to treat AD.

So yes, based on current evidence there is no direct correlation with amyloid and AD. I am open to changing my mind when more convincing evidence comes along. Hopefully you are too.
 
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I forgot to reply to your part about AchE inhibitors. This article is a good summary from 15 years ago


Just a quick excerpt "In the study by Corey-Bloom et al (1998), participants in the high-dose group showed an average decline that was 3.78 points less than the decline shown by placebo participants in the ADAS-Cog" How much was the slowing of decline with Don compared to placebo -0.5 points??
I don't know how you can sit around and make these random claims. Before I debate with you further, I will need to see your COIs.
P.S. I don't have any.
 
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I forgot to reply to your part about AchE inhibitors. This article is a good summary from 15 years ago


Just a quick excerpt "In the study by Corey-Bloom et al (1998), participants in the high-dose group showed an average decline that was 3.78 points less than the decline shown by placebo participants in the ADAS-Cog" How much was the slowing of decline with Don compared to placebo -0.5 points??
I don't know how you can sit around and make these random claims. Before I debate with you further, I will need to see your COIs.
P.S. I don't have any.

The question to you was very simple. How does AChE-I slow progression? Is your answer really going to be word choices used by Italians to describe Jody Cory Bloom's rivastigmine paper?

Of course you don't have any COI. It is clear that you don't do work in this field. Equally obvious based on your inexpertise, no-one is knocking on your door to do consulting work for educational, trial design, or commercial strategy purposes.

Science doesn't care about COI. The people employed by Lilly and Eisai have 100% COI and loyalty to their companies. They also helped deliver and present data on the first drugs that help AD. That data has to stand up to incredible scrutiny. So what? Van **** presented the Clarity results. Salloway presented the AACI results. Does this change the data?

You realize that this is the exact approach taken by the anti-vaxxers, right? Replace AChEI with natural immunity. Stir distrust of big pharma.
 
To be fair they are sticking with Lecanemab which from my understanding had positive results with fewer significant side effects. That is not a nail in the coffin for the amyloid theory quite yet.
 
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To be fair they are sticking with Lecanemab which from my understanding had positive results with fewer significant side effects. That is not a nail in the coffin for the amyloid theory quite yet.
Positive results as in barely statistically significant and not so much practical/real life consequences. And fewer side effects as in around 40% risk of bleeds/ARIA. Not to forget immense costs and testing/visits. Hopefully this drug will be abandoned soon as well!
 
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Positive results as in barely statistically significant and not so much practical/real life consequences. And fewer side effects as in around 40% risk of bleeds/ARIA. Not to forget immense costs and testing/visits. Hopefully this drug will be abandoned soon as well!

Met primary outcome. Met all secondary outcomes. Was even positive on caregiver QOL. At this point you're digging deeper into delusion.

You going to finally tell us all how AChE-I slows progression?

There are obviously a lot of criticisms, due to 24% patients developing cerebral edema( and I suspect they will be worse off in long term due to that) and additional 8% developed significant infusion related AI and 4 deaths.

Also keep in mind rivastigmine (which we consider a dud) showed 0.7 points improvement in MMSE in 6 months, plus slowed decline in their studies. Don showed 0.5 points less decline after 1.5 years( compared to placebo). Hardly significant in my mind for a progressive disease. This study further validated that there is no direct correlation with amyloid and dementia
 
Just FYI, this is gaining momentum. Some well respected Cognitive neurologists' shared with me recently.

 
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Just FYI, this is gaining momentum. Some well respected Cognitive neurologists' shared with me recently.


Let's beat up on the - checks notes - Alz Association for advocating for DMTs in Alzheimer's disease. It was written by two doofuses who also wrote "The Myth of Alzheimer's" which brings HIV denialism to Alzheimer's!

Yeah, that's going to gain a lot of momentum. Powerful stuff. Thank you!
 
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