NBDE and OMS help

[SC-Z]

hey guys- I'm a 3rd year dental student now and just recieved my part I board scores. I recieved and 89 and want to do OMS. I recieved an 83 in the anatomical science part and did fairly well in the rest of the sections(low 90-93). It actually calculated to 89.4%. I want to specialize in OMS, but is an 89 an adequate score to match? My grades are strong, ~3.7, and I plan on doing plenty of extra-curricular activities. Do you think that will make me a strong candidate for OMS???................. or should I plan on retaking that one section over?

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[aphistis]

hey guys- I'm a 3rd year dental student now and just recieved my part I board scores. I recieved and 89 and want to do OMS. I recieved an 83 in the anatomical science part and did fairly well in the rest of the sections(low 90-93). It actually calculated to 89.4%. I want to specialize in OMS, but is an 89 an adequate score to match? My grades are strong, ~3.7, and I plan on doing plenty of extra-curricular activities. Do you think that will make me a strong candidate for OMS???................. or should I plan on retaking that one section over?

On top of the OP's question, I'm curious about the reverse--I have a 93 on Part I, but my GPA through second year is a thoroughly unremarkable 3.05. I'm off to a much stronger start in clinic, and getting my board scores did wonders for my motivation, so I expect I'll be able to improve my transcript between now and graduation. What I'm wondering is:

1) Assuming for the moment that I'm a competent interviewer given the opportunity, at this moment how long do y'all put my odds?

2) I've already resigned myself that GPA definitely won't be something I play up, so for now I'll be content to break even. How far would I need to boost it to at least get it out of the "liability" column?

3) In the meantime, when I contact programs about externing, what's the best way to sell myself as a candidate worth considering, given my current less-than-ideal academic record?

I'm not blowing off the advice of you OMS guys I've spoken to privately; I'm just trying to cast as wide a net as possible. Thanks.

 

[ItsGavinC]

To each of you: what is your class rank? GPAs mean nothing, although in the case of the OP a 3.7 is probably a fairly good class rank. But in terms of Bill, a 3.05 could be a decent class rank or it could be a terrible one.

As far as Part I scores, it seems there are some less attractive programs that take students with scores 85+, however the OMS guys should pipe in as to what makes these programs less attractive than others.

 

[drhobie7]

To the OP: you can only retake a section of the exam if you failed that section. If you are trying to improve your score you need to retake the entire exam. Sucks, I know. You know what also sucks? They round up from 0.5 so another 0.1 point and you'd have had a 90.

 

[esclavo]

I am a resident but I reviewed all applicants from last year and I ran the interviews. Here is what I learned and the pearls I'm willing to pass on. From our program's standpoint, NB scores are far more important than GPA and class rank. It is a way to compare all comers from all types of dental schools. An 89 can be okay with OMFS/path research and at least 2 strong externships with known letters of recommendations. Don't get letters of recommendations from people who aren't OMFS program directors, OMFS department chairs or full time OMFS faculty. We could care less what a private practice OMFS guy or your endo instructor or biomaterials research mentor has to say about you. A fair recommendation from a KNOWN name is far more valuable than an OUTSTANDING recommdation from "I've never heard of this dude". Letters of recommendation from externship directors are excellent because they see you in the resident environment. I can tell more about a guy in 72 hours of being here in an externship than some dork dental school instructor who has checked off your root canal or crown prep for the past 2 years. The environment in which you are observed and the person observing you are the important things. Anybody can shine at 10 am after a good nights sleep and breakfast while doing a prophy but, how good are you at 4 in the morning, up for 24 straight hours, stinking like moldy bologna, draining a tough abscess or sewing up a screaming kid with a through and through lip lac while in a papoose board when your last meal was 16 hours ago? Sorry for the run on sentences... you get my point though. Let me sum it up for you. 1. Know persons (OMFS) for letters of recommendations, 2. externships, externships 3. OMFS/path research 4. Strong NB I scores (90 and above but 89 is okay with all the rest of the stuff as described)

This is how we look at applicants.

 

[gryffindor]

Thank esclavo for the insightful post. I actually have heard very similar advice from an OMS program director.

But what about this - if a candidate is in either SC-Z or aphistis's positions, but is a female, do you think that makes a difference in OMS? I wonder, only because the specialty is so male dominated. Do programs actively look to increase the male/female ratio, or do some of them shy away from it by just mailing out rejection letters? Rejection letters are an easy way out of the situation and to keep females out if a program wanted to do it - "You are so qualified but we had too many qualified people and could only invite a few. So sorry." I'd be interested in the resident's perspectives on this.

 

[esclavo]

Thank esclavo for the insightful post. I actually have heard very similar advice from an OMS program director.

But what about this - if a candidate is in either SC-Z or aphistis's positions, but is a female, do you think that makes a difference in OMS? I wonder, only because the specialty is so male dominated. Do programs actively look to increase the male/female ratio, or do some of them shy away from it by just mailing out rejection letters? Rejection letters are an easy way out of the situation and to keep females out if a program wanted to do it - "You are so qualified but we had too many qualified people and could only invite a few. So sorry." I'd be interested in the resident's perspectives on this.

OMFS is a male dominated program in general. I went to dental school at Minnesota and they take a fair amount of females. I considered those female residents very competent and pretty good co-residents even though I technically wasn't resident, I spent alot of time night and day at the program. If you were female, I'd suggest finding programs that consistently take females if that would make you feel better. We interview people based upon qualifications independently of sex. Last year we only interviewed one female and only had two applicants out of over 70 ! The one we interviewed, in my opinion had a bad inferiority complex (perhaps because of the derth of females in the profession) She had a good application but in person she was too "cut-throat" and calculating. She didn't interact well with her fellow interviewies and I thought she would be tough to train... thus she is probably at another program. My advice to any interviewie in OMFS (female or male): be sharp and crisp but not cynical or hardened. Be humble (can I train this person?) and be comfortable with your personal weaknesses/shortfalls. If you're a female, be feminine- don't try to act like a hardened guy. If you are a guy be perceptive/curteous not competitive (especially in person). Make people feel comfortable. The interview is about how people feel around you and how comfortable you are with yourself and others, even over-egotistical male residents (some places like to do things to knock you out of your comfort zone). It is the right mixture of relax/crisp. Smile alot. As I read this it is like I'm coaching Miss Universe. I hope the image is coming across to anyone interested.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

If you were female, I'd suggest finding programs that consistently take females if that would make you feel better. My advice to any interviewie in OMFS (female or male): Make people feel comfortable. The interview is about how people feel around you and how comfortable you are with yourself and others, even over-egotistical male residents (some places like to do things to knock you out of your comfort zone).

I would definitely agree with this. There are definitely programs that shy away from females, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't take one. When I interviewed last year, I only met one woman on the interview trail that I would have liked as a co-resident. The others were all very bright, but also boring, overly passive, or lacking personality altogether. I won't put in my vote for ANYONE like that, male or female.

My advice for interviewing is to be yourself. You ought to want to know if the people in the program are going to like you for the person that you are, not the person that you can pretend to be. You may be able to keep up a facade for the interview, but you won't be able to for four or six years. I wanted programs to know exactly who I was, so if I ended up there, they got what they were expecting. There were times that I knew that I wasn't telling someone what they wanted to hear, which may have hurt my Match status with them. But, if my preferences didn't align with that of the program, I wanted to know that before I matched there. I didn't want to end up somewhere that I didn't belong. The interview is your chance to figure this out. Don't waste it trying to impress people. You are interviewing the program as much as they are interviewing you. Before you interview, know what you want. Or at least know what you think you want. Have an opinion (you're entitled to that), but don't be afraid to say "I don't know." Ask questions. Get the information that you need in order to make an informed decision. Be interactive. I couldn't believe how many people that I interviewed with chose to go back to the hotel at the end of the day rather than go out for a drink with the residents.

And lastly, don't tell TX OMS that you dislike Texans, transvestites, or beastiality. You'll be putting your foot in your mouth...

 

[Doggie]

I couldn't believe how many people that I interviewed with chose to go back to the hotel at the end of the day rather than go out for a drink with the residents.

At the end of one interview last year, the residents took us to a strip club. Lots of lap dances went around. One of the chiefs bought me a lap dance.....woohoo! There were 2 girls that interviewed with us that day, and even they went with us.

 

[GatorDMD]

At the end of one interview last year, the residents took us to a strip club. Lots of lap dances went around. One of the chiefs bought me a lap dance.....woohoo! There were 2 girls that interviewed with us that day, and even they went with us.

ooo! where?! just want to make sure it was on the list.

 

[toofache32]

ooo! where?! just want to make sure it was on the list.

Plead the 5th, Doggie!

 

[gryffindor]

My advice for interviewing is to be yourself. You ought to want to know if the people in the program are going to like you for the person that you are, not the person that you can pretend to be. You may be able to keep up a facade for the interview, but you won't be able to for four or six years. I wanted programs to know exactly who I was, so if I ended up there, they got what they were expecting. There were times that I knew that I wasn't telling someone what they wanted to hear, which may have hurt my Match status with them. But, if my preferences didn't align with that of the program, I wanted to know that before I matched there. I didn't want to end up somewhere that I didn't belong. The interview is your chance to figure this out. Don't waste it trying to impress people. You are interviewing the program as much as they are interviewing you. Before you interview, know what you want. Or at least know what you think you want. Have an opinion (you're entitled to that), but don't be afraid to say "I don't know." Ask questions. Get the information that you need in order to make an informed decision. Be interactive. I couldn't believe how many people that I interviewed with chose to go back to the hotel at the end of the day rather than go out for a drink with the residents.

Just to note, I am applying to Ortho, but I had a female friend ask me about OMS.

OMFSCardsFan, you are probably a cool guy, and I've heard the exact advice you're giving many times before. Maybe it works for Oral Surgery where you will be in the training for 6 years, so it's important to find someone who will be able to tough it out for that long and be sensible. However, when I've been to ortho programs to visit or interview, I've found myself meeting many residents and thinking "man, this guy really fooled the interviewers on interview day. He's a total prick/tool/real bore."

Maybe it's different for ortho since the residency is much shorter, 2 to 3 years. But I don't know about having an opinion, I was told my opinion was wrong at one interview. Basically, the interviewer was harrasing me about the places I had applied and why I wouldn't want to apply to the top dog programs and get the best ortho education possible b/c he was a grad of a top dog program himself. I very nicely said something to the effect of my stats, whie competitive, would probably be thrown out at a top dog program. Seeing as it was my second time applying to ortho and my first time had included several top programs where I got zero interviews, I didn't think I was wrong the second time to approach programs where I would have a better chance. Long story short, I got a huffy response about why my approach wasn't the best way to get the best education, blah blah blah. I really didn't know what to say after that, I felt like I had been shot down big time.

Lesson learned for round 3 of ortho applications: Maybe it's good to have your own opinion, just make sure it's the opinion that agrees with the interviewer.

 

[SC-Z]

thanks for all the good advice. I'll make sure to get good recc. letters. Hopefully I'll be the one to hand out the advice on this type of situation in the future.

 

[Doggie]

Plead the 5th, Doggie!

Just like chapelle said.............."I plead the fif...........one, two, three, four, fif~~~~!"

 

[Doggie]

Just to note, I am applying to Ortho, but I had a female friend ask me about OMS.

OMFSCardsFan, you are probably a cool guy, and I've heard the exact advice you're giving many times before. Maybe it works for Oral Surgery where you will be in the training for 6 years, so it's important to find someone who will be able to tough it out for that long and be sensible. However, when I've been to ortho programs to visit or interview, I've found myself meeting many residents and thinking "man, this guy really fooled the interviewers on interview day. He's a total prick/tool/real bore."

Maybe it's different for ortho since the residency is much shorter, 2 to 3 years. But I don't know about having an opinion, I was told my opinion was wrong at one interview. Basically, the interviewer was harrasing me about the places I had applied and why I wouldn't want to apply to the top dog programs and get the best ortho education possible b/c he was a grad of a top dog program himself. I very nicely said something to the effect of my stats, whie competitive, would probably be thrown out at a top dog program. Seeing as it was my second time applying to ortho and my first time had included several top programs where I got zero interviews, I didn't think I was wrong the second time to approach programs where I would have a better chance. Long story short, I got a huffy response about why my approach wasn't the best way to get the best education, blah blah blah. I really didn't know what to say after that, I felt like I had been shot down big time.

Lesson learned for round 3 of ortho applications: Maybe it's good to have your own opinion, just make sure it's the opinion that agrees with the interviewer.

My OMS mentor in dental school gave me a great piece of advice. "Whichever program you interview at, convey to them that you think their program is the best in the world."

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

At the end of one interview last year, the residents took us to a strip club. Lots of lap dances went around. One of the chiefs bought me a lap dance.....woohoo! There were 2 girls that interviewed with us that day, and even they went with us.

Damn...where was that? I'm now hoping that it wasn't one of the interviews that I cancelled last year...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Lesson learned for round 3 of ortho applications: Maybe it's good to have your own opinion, just make sure it's the opinion that agrees with the interviewer.

I disagree with that. I had a similar experience while interviewing. I had a program director ask where else I was interviewing. After telling him, he noted that I had not mentioned anywhere in the northeast. Having heard a lot about malignancy of programs out there, I chose to keep my application in the midwest and south, where I knew more about the programs. This program director had trained at Maryland, so I guess he took my statement as an insult. He hammered on me in that interview, but I stuck to what I had said. I walked out of there thinking the worst, but I was at least happy that I stuck to my guns and didn't cave when he was firing at me. Later, I told one of the 5th-year guys the story, and he laughed his ass off. He had just been talking with the program director about all the interviewees. The program director hadn't said why, but told the resident that he really liked me. I was surprised, but not shocked. I ended up not ranking them anyway, because I didn't really like the program director's style.

I'm glad that you have an opinion, though...=)

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

My OMS mentor in dental school gave me a great piece of advice. "Whichever program you interview at, convey to them that you think their program is the best in the world."

You don't think that the program directors see right through that? These guys didn't get to where they are by buying that kind of bullsh1t...

 

[esclavo]

I disagree with that. I had a similar experience while interviewing. I had a program director ask where else I was interviewing. After telling him, he noted that I had not mentioned anywhere in the northeast. Having heard a lot about malignancy of programs out there, I chose to keep my application in the midwest and south, where I knew more about the programs. This program director had trained at Maryland, so I guess he took my statement as an insult. He hammered on me in that interview, but I stuck to what I had said. I walked out of there thinking the worst, but I was at least happy that I stuck to my guns and didn't cave when he was firing at me. Later, I told one of the 5th-year guys the story, and he laughed his ass off. He had just been talking with the program director about all the interviewees. The program director hadn't said why, but told the resident that he really liked me. I was surprised, but not shocked. I ended up not ranking them anyway, because I didn't really like the program director's style.

I'm glad that you have an opinion, though...=)

You sounded like you had a ton of interviews and could afford a little "fudge factor" in terms of self expression/opinion. For many with less interviews or who are boarderline candidates, I still say be politically correct. Be well spoken and say things with tact (Clintonesque if you will). At my program the attendings like to know you are trainable and that you won't say things that will reflect poorly upon the department. Resident opinion isn't an important thing in my program (resident turbulence buys a ticket to another program or out the door). Instead resident compliance is seen as the higher attribute. I'm not in a county hospital and I've never been to the OR without an attending scrubbed in with me. At another institution where the population is indigent and the residents have tons of autonomy then being yourself or being opinionated is probably to your advantage. My 3 attendings have all said, "I want you to operate exactly the way I want on my patients because they are my patients. When you are a licensed OMFS then you can have your own way/opinion. For now you are a resident. If you come here you will learn to do things our way." Being strongly opinionated hasn't exactly help me in this intense training environment if you haven't been able to tell by this loquatious entry. I've noticed the residents who lay low, comply and just get through (please the senior residents/attendings) have less bruises/bumps/heartache.

 

[Doggie]

You don't think that the program directors see right through that? These guys didn't get to where they are by buying that kind of bullsh1t...

I think what my mentor meant to say was at least keep a positive attitude about the oms program you are visiting, even if you think a half-assed perio program is better than theirs.

 

[Doggie]

Damn...where was that? I'm now hoping that it wasn't one of the interviews that I cancelled last year...

I know that in 2004 match cycle, baylor residents took the interviewees to a strip club too.

 

[Periogod]

I know this is coming from a lowly periodontist but at the moment we have interviewees coming through the program. The best way to interview is to not say anything too stupid (one girl forgot her own name) and to be yourself. OMFSCardsFan is right (I can't believe I am saying this). Program directors and residents can see right through bull****. I have yet to rank any guy coming through our program highly (I have however ranked all the women by hottness and we have had a couple 4/4's).

 

[toofache32]

... and we have had a couple 4/4's.

You're not talking about "4 by 4's" are you? That's what we call those women who are 4-feet-tall and 4-feet-wide who come into our clinic thinking they're gonna get sedation. Here's my Rule of Thumb: you're not gonna get sedation when you have a pannus on your neck. That is, if you have a neck to begin with.

 

[Doggie]

Here's my Rule of Thumb: you're not gonna get sedation when you have a pannus on your neck. That is, if you have a neck to begin with.

There should be a cankle verification test that goes along with that.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

You sounded like you had a ton of interviews and could afford a little "fudge factor" in terms of self expression/opinion.

At another institution where the population is indigent and the residents have tons of autonomy then being yourself or being opinionated is probably to your advantage. My 3 attendings have all said, "I want you to operate exactly the way I want on my patients because they are my patients. When you are a licensed OMFS then you can have your own way/opinion. For now you are a resident. If you come here you will learn to do things our way." Being strongly opinionated hasn't exactly help me in this intense training environment if you haven't been able to tell by this loquatious entry. I've noticed the residents who lay low, comply and just get through (please the senior residents/attendings) have less bruises/bumps/heartache.

I only went on six interviews, so I wouldn't say that I had a lot of fudge factor.

I do think you've made a good point about the differences in programs that I didn't even think about. I applied to all large, public hospital-type programs because I want to do the cutting in the OR and I wanted the autonomy. I don't know enough about the programs such as yours to comment. Thanks for adding your thoughts to the mix.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

You're not talking about "4 by 4's" are you? That's what we call those women who are 4-feet-tall and 4-feet-wide who come into our clinic thinking they're gonna get sedation. Here's my Rule of Thumb: you're not gonna get sedation when you have a pannus on your neck. That is, if you have a neck to begin with.

I don't ever have to see any of the "4 by 4's" because TX OMS calls them as soon as they walk through the door. He scores some serious digits in our clinic...