More ABR back and forth in RJ

[Mandelin Rain]

Says the guy who thinks only PPs are the ones doling out non competes.

I made no such inference, but keep trying. The fact of the matter is, this wasn't even on most academic programs or Astro's radar until the most recent match results

I'm guessing it was on their radar, but they were able to completely ignore it because the wheels hadn't fallen off yet. When >10% of your previously highly-competitive field's spots go unmatched, it kind of forces your hand to at least acknowledge it.

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[evilbooyaa]

Thats his point precisely, that there is a MINORITY of PDs who actually spoke up and cares enough to voice an opinion. What were the others doing?

Well intentioned or not if “good people” do nothing, they are not really on people’s side when things matter.

I see your point. Maybe all 30 people in there should have stood up and done a coordinated walk out to really protest. Or they should have gotten into a direct shouting match with Kachnic or talked over her.

However, at the end of the day, most (not all) rad oncs are generally timid people who have been trained to not say no to somebody who has any control over them. We learn to 'play nice' with our referring docs, some of whom we think are idiots (at least at times). We learn to 'go along' with a treatment plan that isn't optimal or standard of care, in our opinion (or sometimes, objectively).

This carries over into academic, where the heads of the ABR are seen as those in power and thus not to be openly retaliated against for most, even for PDs, most of whom are NOT full professors.

Not saying that the response was 100% what I would have wanted at ASTRO, but I think placing our anger in the PDs (as a whole) for their response to the ABR fiasco is misplaced. Yes, there are certain PDs active on ROHub and Twitter who blame SDN for all the problems, but they are to me a vocal minority of PDs (similar to how SDN is a vocal minority of the field).

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I see your point. Maybe all 30 people in there should have stood up and done a coordinated walk out to really protest. Or they should have gotten into a direct shouting match with Kachnic or talked over her.

However, at the end of the day, most (not all) rad oncs are generally timid people who have been trained to not say no to somebody who has any control over them. We learn to 'play nice' with our referring docs, some of whom we think are idiots (at least at times). We learn to 'go along' with a treatment plan that isn't optimal or standard of care, in our opinion (or sometimes, objectively).

This carries over into academic, where the heads of the ABR are seen as those in power and thus not to be openly retaliated against for most, even for PDs, most of whom are NOT full professors.

Not saying that the response was 100% what I would have wanted at ASTRO, but I think placing our anger in the PDs (as a whole) for their response to the ABR fiasco is misplaced. Yes, there are certain PDs active on ROHub and Twitter who blame SDN for all the problems, but they are to me a vocal minority of PDs (similar to how SDN is a vocal minority of the field).

certainly not a shouting match or talk over people (easy way to be written off) but disappointing it was such a small minority of people and not a polite majority united making their points and pushing back. The Amdur and Lee article could have easily been "cosigned" by many other PDs (similar to the red journal post-interview-communication article). Instead you have a good amount of PDs who are mute, some who blame SDN as misanthrope insane individuals spouting non-sense, and a vocal tiny "minority" of PDs (2?) who are choosing to lead. I think we have a leadership crisis when such few little people are willing to stand up to do what is right for our field.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

So what you are saying is it takes gumption to stand for something in this field, and only 2 PDs had the requisite gumption to actually, literally stand up for their residents in the face of the ABR harming their careers?

I guess I stand by my original statement.

 

[xrthopeful]

Says the guy who thinks only PPs are the ones doling out non competes.

I made no such inference, but keep trying. The fact of the matter is, this wasn't even on most academic programs or Astro's radar until the most recent match results

I never said only PPs gives out non-competes. That would be ridiculous. Im well aware of the non-competes that both PP and hospital-based practices give out

My reply about non-competes was to EvilBooya - whose entire post was about academics and the non-competes THEY give out

which contributes to my point EXACTLY - that was another post that was one-sided and weirdly anti-academic when non-competes being like a 'problem with academics' isn't a thing at all.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I never said only PPs gives out non-competes. That would be ridiculous. Im well aware of the non-competes that both PP and hospital-based practices give out

My reply about non-competes was to EvilBooya - whose entire post was about academics and the non-competes THEY give out

which contributes to my point EXACTLY - that was another post that was one-sided and weirdly anti-academic when non-competes being like a 'problem with academics' isn't a thing at all.

Which was in response to you saying that non-competes are not a problem for academics, because I said the academicians who run ASTRO have a stake to maintain the feasibility of non-competes. If private practice docs ran ASTRO, they would likely have a stake to maintain non-competes as well! My claim was not that they are a problem for ONLY academics (which I think we agree on), but rather that they are a bigger problem for anyone interested in working academics because of larger satellite networks. Regardless, this is from another thread and if so inclined we should continue that discussion in that thread.

 

[xrthopeful]

Which was in response to you saying that non-competes are not a problem for academics, because I said the academicians who run ASTRO have a stake to maintain the feasibility of non-competes. If private practice docs ran ASTRO, they would likely have a stake to maintain non-competes as well! My claim was not that they are a problem for ONLY academics (which I think we agree on), but rather that they are a bigger problem for anyone interested in working academics because of larger satellite networks. Regardless, this is from another thread and if so inclined we should continue that discussion in that thread.

yo - my reply was to YOUR post dude. go back and read.

you said 'non-competes are a problem in academics blah blah blah'

My reply 'actually a problem in PP too, in fact, often more of an issue in PP'

basically you and other people here have this weird obsession with always going out of your way to be 'anti-academics' which is really weird. that shouldn't be the point and muddies the message and is just as bad as anyone who disparages PP docs. I HATE this binary, black/white ****. its a big problem here and if you will notice, a lot of my posts call it out.

im just about facts, and things being better, and most reasonable people are the same - NO MATTER WHERE THEY WORK OR WHO THEY WORK FOR.

we can move on.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I know that it was in response to my post. That's why I was responding to it. I'm not sure what the issue here. That's why I wanted to write out who was saying what. I don't know why you seem to be upset about it.

I agree with you that non-competes are a problem in PP as well, and my initial statement, while it did not mention both academics and PP, was not meant to say that non-competes are only an issue in academics.

However, I DISAGREE that they are MORE of an issue in PP (which is a comment that you have said twice no with ZERO rationale behind why that is). I think they are a bigger issue in academics THAN in PP, because a radius around the satellite network for an academic facility is a much larger area than it is around a PP, because academic facilities generally have more satellites than private practices. I would recommend that you back up your opinions/statements with some sort of rationale instead of getting upset about it. I'm not anti academics at my core. As a resident, I may want to go work in academics when I graduate residency.

I 'm not entirely sure why you feel there is anti-academic bias (from me I guess). I think academics advance the future of the field. Having a shorter version of RT that can be offered to patients is great. Being able to justify treating oligometastatic disease with a survival benefit is great. Having data to do hippocampal sparing WBRT is great. These are all things that folks in academics are spearheading. Hell, I'm the one defending the PDs in this thread!

Yes, there are places that are recklessly expanding residencies I'm not a huge fan of, but I'm more than aware of the fact that there are multiple very solid programs that certainly COULD expand residency that aren't because of their genuine interest in not shortchanging the future of the field.

However, I DO feel that ASTRO leadership has failed our specialty at the current time, and ASTRO leadership happens to be nearly all people that are in academics.

I'm not sure if I'm just getting trolled at this point but I'm not sure why you're projecting an anti-academic bias from me.

Regardless, if you'd like to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

yo - my reply was to YOUR post dude. go back and read.

you said 'non-competes are a problem in academics blah blah blah'

My reply 'actually a problem in PP too, in fact, often more of an issue in PP'

basically you and other people here have this weird obsession with always going out of your way to be 'anti-academics' which is really weird. that shouldn't be the point and muddies the message and is just as bad as anyone who disparages PP docs. I HATE this binary, black/white ****. its a big problem here and if you will notice, a lot of my posts call it out.

im just about facts, and things being better, and most reasonable people are the same - NO MATTER WHERE THEY WORK OR WHO THEY WORK FOR.

we can move on.

Suck it up buttercup!