Midwestern vs. Lincoln Memorial

[stuckintheponyphase]

Hey guys, I'm looking into a backup school to apply to this cycle. I'm prioritizing the quality of the program over the cost, but I'm hoping to apply where I will have the greatest chance of an acceptance as I do not want to take another gap year. If it helps, my stats are 3.8 GPA, 155V/163Q/3.5W, ~800 vet hours, ~350 research, ~8000 animal experience. Thanks!

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[deleted676737]

Hey guys, I'm looking into a backup school to apply to this cycle. I'm prioritizing the quality of the program over the cost, but I'm hoping to apply where I will have the greatest chance of an acceptance as I do not want to take another gap year. If it helps, my stats are 3.8 GPA, 155V/163Q/3.5W, ~800 vet hours, ~350 research, ~8000 animal experience. Thanks!

May I ask why? Both are very new schools (as in, only just graduated their second classes), so it’s really difficult to speak much to the quality of instruction or graduates at this point. If you aren’t aware, too, these schools are definitely on the pricier end of the spectrum, especially Midwestern, and they can easily put you $300k+ in the black after interest and capitalization. Take it from someone in repayment: this kind of debt can and will drastically impact your future quality of life and the financial aspect needs to be taken very seriously into account. Are you applying to your IS school (if you have one)?

I don’t think there are any currently active members attending either school, unfortunately. I did personally apply to and was accepted to Midwestern a few years back and while I liked what I saw, I just couldn’t justify the price and looking back I shouldn’t have applied there because I knew deep down that I wouldn’t attend.

Anyway, your stats are right around average to above average for most if not all schools, so I’d say you’ve probably got a fair shot of getting in somewhere, but you didn’t break down your experience or give many specific details so it’s hard to know if you have something unique you’re bringing to the table to stand out among the pre-vet crowd.

 

[stuckintheponyphase]

May I ask why? Both are very new schools (as in, only just graduated their second classes), so it’s really difficult to speak much to the quality of instruction or graduates at this point. If you aren’t aware, too, these schools are definitely on the pricier end of the spectrum, especially Midwestern, and they can easily put you $300k+ in the black after interest and capitalization. Take it from someone in repayment: this kind of debt can and will drastically impact your future quality of life and the financial aspect needs to be taken very seriously into account. Are you applying to your IS school (if you have one)?

I don’t think there are any currently active members attending either school, unfortunately. I did personally apply to and was accepted to Midwestern a few years back and while I liked what I saw, I just couldn’t justify the price and looking back I shouldn’t have applied there because I knew deep down that I wouldn’t attend.

Anyway, your stats are right around average to above average for most if not all schools, so I’d say you’ve probably got a fair shot of getting in somewhere, but you didn’t break down your experience or give many specific details so it’s hard to know if you have something unique you’re bringing to the table to stand out among the pre-vet crowd.

I'm very fortunate that my father has offered to pay for veterinary school, and he would rather take on the extra cost of an expensive school than wait around for an acceptance at my IS or another cheaper school. I know, super lucky in the financial aspect over here. I'm planning on applying to Florida (IS), Georgia, NC State, Cornell, Missouri, and Oklahoma, but my father has asked me to apply to one of the "easier" schools to get into as well.
My animal experience is mainly equine (I compete in jumping on the rated circuit and trained two young horses through UF), my research is equine genetics, and my vet experience is about 50/50 equine/small animal with some farm and exotic mixed in. I'm very interested in equine and hopefully specializing further after school.
What did you think of midwestern compared to other schools that you applied to?

 

[Lupin21]

You have a good chance at OKState and we have a decent equine load as well, so I'm not sure you applying to these schools is really needed. However, Midwestern at least has a teaching hospital. I am currently working with a new grad from Midwestern and I find him to be incredibly knowledgable, so that is also a plus. The debt is certainly outrageous though.

 

[PhiloslothicalStudent]

My boyfriend is starting this semester at LMU. He had his first day of orientation today, and had anatomy boot camp 2 weeks ago (the school has an optional anatomy camp where they will review anatomy material before the start of classes, if you would like to brush up). He loves the area, the professors, and the community there. Mind you he has been in the army for quite sometime and the university is very pro-military as it is ran by people who are/have been in the military. Yes, they do not have a dedicated teaching hospital, but he likes the idea of coming back to his home state to work along veterinarians he has shadowed for so long, but in a different caliber (as a doctor). Yes, it is unconventional to not have a teaching hospital, but the university has connections to set up internships and clinical rotations. You have a good chance at LMU, but also keep in mind they weigh more on experience than grades. Average gpa for an admitted student last cycle was a 3.1

 

[MixedAnimals77]

I'm very fortunate that my father has offered to pay for veterinary school, and he would rather take on the extra cost of an expensive school than wait around for an acceptance at my IS or another cheaper school. I know, super lucky in the financial aspect over here. I'm planning on applying to Florida (IS), Georgia, NC State, Cornell, Missouri, and Oklahoma, but my father has asked me to apply to one of the "easier" schools to get into as well.
My animal experience is mainly equine (I compete in jumping on the rated circuit and trained two young horses through UF), my research is equine genetics, and my vet experience is about 50/50 equine/small animal with some farm and exotic mixed in. I'm very interested in equine and hopefully specializing further after school.
What did you think of midwestern compared to other schools that you applied to?

Hi,
Not to take this the wrong way, but I strongly encourage you consider all of your options. I understand not wanting to possibly take another gap year, but it's definitely not the end of the world if you would have to-all things happen for a reason. While yes, your father may have offered to pay for vet school, with the approach of trying to get into an "easier" school for the sake of getting in vs waiting I encourage you to really consider your career path as even if it is his suggestion, that view point to applying and veterinary school is missing the mark. Yes veterinary school is difficult to get into and some schools are persay "easier" than others, but for reasons. While LMU and Midwestern are both accredited and I'm sure are wonderful schools, I hope you have done the research as well as your dad to fully understand the scope of the cost of vet school particularly at the more expensive schools. It's very generous that he has made that offer, but what if something were to happen that he could no longer assist you? Would you be ok taking on that much debt with a salary of maybe a 1/4 the cost of the tuition and then probably never being able to afford to actually live after getting out of school? This is just me speaking for myself but, if my parents had all the money in the world and were to offer to pay for my school I would do everything possible to minimize the burden on them because that is an extremely generous gift they are offering and I'm sure they could do other, better things with their money to benefit themselves, me, or others more. IMO and I am sure some others will agree is that a DVM is not worth the price tag of some of these schools. Although I've wanted to be a vet pretty much all my life in the end it is just a job and it's not worth it at some point. You said you've thought about specializing, be mindful that life during training often requires subsidization from family just to make ends meet depending on where you intern/residency at so there's that cost later to consider as well.

If you're really determined to apply to one vs the other I would suggest Midwestern purely for the fact that they have a teaching hospital and therefore you wont have to worry about storing your stuff, or paying double rent, or finding housing for like 2 weeks at a time at new places like LMU because they are a distributive model it adds significant cost and headache on to 4th year. With your stats though if you have decent essays and LORs you should be at least a shoe in for an interview at places, nail that and I'd say you have a decent chance of admission. For "quality over cost" I'd argue no such thing for your DVM. If you go to an accredited school you'll come out with the same amount of knowledge no matter where you attend and that your "quality" will be proportional to the amount of effort you put in because all accredited schools have met the minimum requirements set forth by the AVMA COE. I wish you all the luck in applying no matter where you finally submit apps to and in the end hope you choose your cheapest option if offered a position.

 

[ERVetTech]

One thing to be cautious about is that the Midwestern large animal teaching hospital doesn’t typically see equine emergencies or perform equine surgeries (except for castrations), and mainly do lameness. However, you can gain these experiences from the equine externships during fourth year! You just may not see as much during years 1-3. Hope this helps and best of luck

 

[SkiOtter]

One thing to be cautious about is that the Midwestern large animal teaching hospital doesn’t typically see equine emergencies or perform equine surgeries (except for castrations), and mainly do lameness. However, you can gain these experiences from the equine externships during fourth year! You just may not see as much during years 1-3. Hope this helps and best of luck

@DVMDream has also frequently said that they don’t take a lot of SA emergencies either because they’re just not equipped to handle them currently. They may be able to in the future, but I believe she’s had them refuse certain things.

 

[battie]

Also keep in mind that these schools aren't easier to get into just because the average GPA of a matriculant is 3.1. The average GPA of accepted students in general could be much higher, but many students that are accepted at these schools may drop their acceptance to attend a different school.

I have a friend at Illinois that had a 2.9 cumulative because she had major life struggles her first 3 semesters of undergrad. I'm using her as an example that no school is easy to get into when it comes to the criteria that the schools set.

 

[Georgethecat]

Hey guys, I'm looking into a backup school to apply to this cycle. I'm prioritizing the quality of the program over the cost, but I'm hoping to apply where I will have the greatest chance of an acceptance as I do not want to take another gap year. If it helps, my stats are 3.8 GPA, 155V/163Q/3.5W, ~800 vet hours, ~350 research, ~8000 animal experience. Thanks!

Your stats are good. You should have a decent chance at most schools. Did you do file reviews at the schools you applied at this past cycle? That would help pinpoint any weaknesses in your application. Are you sure that all of your references are strong? Sometimes a just so so reference can unintentionally tank your application. Not saying this is true in your case, just throwing out things to think about.

I agree with what everyone has said/suggested about cost. Even with family help, vet school is expensive. NCSU would be your cheapest option closely followed by UF. Bottom line is that Midwestern is crazy expensive. Beyond that I'd suggest that you look at OOS schools that your stats and experiences match up well with AND that take a good number of OOS students. Your stats match just fine with UGA, but they take only a handful of OOS students so it's anyone's guess as to who gets accepted OOS (this is not to say you shouldn't apply...and with no additional interviewing costs it's not a super expensive application).

Best of luck to you this cycle!

 

[stuckintheponyphase]

Your stats are good. You should have a decent chance at most schools. Did you do file reviews at the schools you applied at this past cycle? That would help pinpoint any weaknesses in your application. Are you sure that all of your references are strong? Sometimes a just so so reference can unintentionally tank your application. Not saying this is true in your case, just throwing out things to think about.

I agree with what everyone has said/suggested about cost. Even with family help, vet school is expensive. NCSU would be your cheapest option closely followed by UF. Bottom line is that Midwestern is crazy expensive. Beyond that I'd suggest that you look at OOS schools that your stats and experiences match up well with AND that take a good number of OOS students. Your stats match just fine with UGA, but they take only a handful of OOS students so it's anyone's guess as to who gets accepted OOS (this is not to say you shouldn't apply...and with no additional interviewing costs it's not a super expensive application).

Best of luck to you this cycle!

Last cycle I only applied UF (IS). In my file review, they suggested more hours, and I've gained all of my research and 400 vet experience since. While I did not hear anything negative about my references, I do have two new references that I believe will be stronger than the ones that I had last cycle. I plan on attending my IS if accepted, and if not, a school with a strong equine program while factoring in cost if I have that option. Neither LMU or Midwestern would be my top choice, but when the person who pays my application fees asks me to apply to a lower tier school, I feel obligated to do that. I'm open to other schools as a backup, but I am trying to minimize essays and interviews and I do not meet prerequisites at some schools (I do not have cell bio, took animal genetics, etc.).

 

[stuckintheponyphase]

Thank you everyone! Your input is very helpful in making a decision.

 

[Georgethecat]

Here are a couple of links from AAVMC with info on prerequisites, costs, number of seats per school etc. This might help you narrow down choices. Again best of luck to you!

https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/geninfo.pdf

https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/prereqchart.pdf

 

[FrostySparrow]

I’m definitely agreeing with the cost comments here. That being said, I’m an oddball and Midwestern was my top choice (it’s my IS, that doesn’t matter though since it’s private tuition). I picked it because of closeness to my family and SO.
Something to keep in mind is that quite a few graduates I’ve spoken to are ~$500k in debt (this is what I’m looking at facing as well probably) at the end of their 4 years.
The comments about the school for equine medicine are correct, so is the ER comment. However, our SVECCS chapter acknowledges this and has a few places set up for students to shadow at during the school year (and summer). I don’t think Midwestern is “easier” to get into, we all busted our butts off and quite a few students declined acceptances to CSU/Cornell for Midwestern. They don’t require GRE, but they split what was that percentage to other aspects (interviews, etc.). Arguably, it may be harder to get into as each year there are more competitive pools of applicants. And as it starts to become more well known and depending on how the graduating classes are viewed in the profession. Especially since being able to perform surgery first year (among other things) seems to be a huge selling point for most pre-vets that encourages applications.

Either way, I’m big on not applying to schools you don’t see yourself wanting to attend. Not only for your sake for cost of apps, etc. but theirs and other students.

 

[battie]

Arguably, it may be harder to get into as each year there are more competitive pools of applicants.

This. According to the AAVMC, there were 8.1 applicants per seat at Midwestern for the class of 2022, which is higher than 8 other schools (although lower than the national average of 9.5). So only 12.3% of people who applied to Midwestern actually will be matriculating in the class of 2023. There were 8,152 applicants last year, the most there have ever been.

LMU was even worse, with 12 applicants per seat. That's an 8.3% matriculation rate.

 

[ajs513]

In the same vein, I applied to 11 schools and got flat out rejected from LMU despite academics above their average and tons of vet, animal, and research experience. I also got waitlisted for an interview at Midwestern. Historically it may have been easier to get in to both schools, and I know I’m just a sample size of one, but it’s definitely not guaranteed that you’ll even receive an interview at either school just because you meet or exceed their averages.

 

[2024hopeful]

Something to keep in mind is that quite a few graduates I’ve spoken to are ~$500k in debt (this is what I’m looking at facing as well probably) at the end of their 4 years.

Hi, I was just curious what makes up the ~$500k in debt. I know Midwestern's tuition would be about half of that number. Were there any other surprise expenses beyond tuition? Thanks!

 

[deleted676737]

Hi, I was just curious what makes up the ~$500k in debt. I know Midwestern's tuition would be about half of that number. Were there any other surprise expenses beyond tuition? Thanks!

Assuming that you take out the full amount for living expenses, the cost comes out to something like $80k-85k/year, if I remember right. Throw in interest and capitalization, and it’s pretty easy to approach the realm of $450k-$500k by graduation. I believe the VIN CoE map currently lists Midwestern as the priciest school with an anticipated debtload of $475k. Of course, any undergrad debt that you may have should also be considered. Unless you’re fortunate, it’s not just vet school tuition you need to worry about.

It is stupid expensive.

 

[2024hopeful]

I believe the VIN CoE map currently lists Midwestern as the priciest school with an anticipated debtload of $475k.

I located the VIN CoE map you mentioned and it is very helpful. Thank you for the information!

 

[FrostySparrow]

Assuming that you take out the full amount for living expenses, the cost comes out to something like $80k-85k/year, if I remember right. Throw in interest and capitalization, and it’s pretty easy to approach the realm of $450k-$500k by graduation. I believe the VIN CoE map currently lists Midwestern as the priciest school with an anticipated debtload of $475k. Of course, any undergrad debt that you may have should also be considered. Unless you’re fortunate, it’s not just vet school tuition you need to worry about.

It is stupid expensive.

Hi, I was just curious what makes up the ~$500k in debt. I know Midwestern's tuition would be about half of that number. Were there any other surprise expenses beyond tuition? Thanks!

Elkhart is correct. My first year ended up being $96k, second year looks like $98k. Tuition goes up 4% each year and I lived alone in a 1bdrm apartment with two pets. Expenses for your health insurance, books, room and board, food, and transportation are factored into your student loans.

 

[battie]

My first year ended up being $96k, second year looks like $98k.

HOLY BATMAN!!!

 

[FrostySparrow]

HOLY BATMAN!!!

I know My SO and I moved in together and we split stuff, so that’s cut down on what I’ll spend quite a bit..but it’s a huge amount compared to the average vet student loans.

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

Something I don't understand about the US system is why doesn't the government subsidize tuition at all? I know in Canada here our cost for vet school is probably 25% the US, but the cost to train a vet is still the same. Its just that our governments subsidize it. Is there no incentive in the US to train veterinarians?

Not even large animal/rural veterinarians? Or is there no incentive to train veterinarians that are more likely to stay in your state? For example up here our schools only let in students from that province.

 

[ajs513]

Something I don't understand about the US system is why doesn't the government subsidize tuition at all? I know in Canada here our cost for vet school is probably 25% the US, but the cost to train a vet is still the same. Its just that our governments subsidize it. Is there no incentive in the US to train veterinarians?

Not even large animal/rural veterinarians? Or is there no incentive to train veterinarians that are more likely to stay in your state? For example up here our schools only let in students from that province.

It’s not so much a lack of incentives as it is the people in charge don’t think it’s a priority. The US political system is a little messed up if you couldn’t tell already lol

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Something I don't understand about the US system is why doesn't the government subsidize tuition at all? I know in Canada here our cost for vet school is probably 25% the US, but the cost to train a vet is still the same. Its just that our governments subsidize it. Is there no incentive in the US to train veterinarians?

Not even large animal/rural veterinarians? Or is there no incentive to train veterinarians that are more likely to stay in your state? For example up here our schools only let in students from that province.

I'm pretty sure our government does subsidize our education, but likely not to the extent yours does. I also think it's mostly done by the state government, not the federal (but someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong here).
For public schools, the cost in state is less expensive then out of state. There are many reasons for this but one of the main ones is the state school wants to train veterinarians that will remain in the area and their main purpose is to train veterinarians from that state. For this reason, many schools have more in state students that OOS students. Certain states (like Idaho and the WICHE states) will subsidize students from their states to go to nearby veterinary schools, often provided they return to their state after graduation.

 

[battie]

Something I don't understand about the US system is why doesn't the government subsidize tuition at all? I know in Canada here our cost for vet school is probably 25% the US, but the cost to train a vet is still the same. Its just that our governments subsidize it. Is there no incentive in the US to train veterinarians?

Not even large animal/rural veterinarians? Or is there no incentive to train veterinarians that are more likely to stay in your state? For example up here our schools only let in students from that province.

There's a lot to it. You can go over to the SPF to see some different prespective on it. The US education system and overall culture has some differences from others that has reduced the amount of subsidies available for higher ed.