MD/PhD Prospects? Low scores, but a lot of experience.

[Bronski]

Hello,

Could anyone offer some advice on whether it's realistic for me to aim for MD/DO + PhD programs for this upcoming application cycle? It seems like a long shot given my scores and the competitive applicant pool. I have not reached out to anyone directly in the MD/PhD admissions community, but my current research mentors have pushed me to give it a shot. Granted, these are all PhD's, or MD's, and none of them have gone through an MD/PhD program. They also don't interact with the admissions side of things. From what I can tell, it seems like my only shot at medical school as of now are some of the newer DO programs out there.

I'm an older (31) non-traditional applicant, 1st gen, who has qualified for FAP, and hoping to be considered “disadvantaged” based on economic factors.

Scores:
Undergrad GPA: 3.0
Grad school (Biomedical Eng./Design) GPA: 3.8
Postbac GPA: 3.2*
Cumulative GPA (unweighted): ~3.2
MCAT: 501; 506

*Combination of family health, working full-time, and COVID hit me hard. My trajectory is upward, with nearly straight A's in the last 20 credits of the program.

Research Experience:
Lab Experience: Worked with 3 big labs over the past 5 years
Fields: Medical devices, wearables, fMRI, neuroscience/neurology, neurocritical care
Publications: 10 published, ~5 in the works (Mix of bigger names like Nature, Science, etc. as well smaller journals. I have 2 first author papers that I'm hoping will be published within the next 12-18 months)
Research hours: At least ~5,000
Posters: Several
Patents: 1 in progress
Awards: Some grad school awards, as well as a Nature Medicine Spinoff award
Grants: Helped write a successful R01
Other: Currently an undergraduate research supervisor and have helped a lot of undergrads get involved with published research and poster presentations.

Clinical Work Experience:
Experience: Currently an fMRI tech and clinical imaging manager at my local medical school (T20 public school) and their affiliated hospital. I've been in this role for about 18 months, which has been an awesome gig.
Clinical Hours: ~1,500
Clinical Trials: Helped develop and manage 2 small clinical trials

Clinical Volunteer Experience:
~500 hours. Some unique projects like doing x rays for free dental clinics and designing prosthetics for children for a non-profit as well as more traditional avenues like hospital volunteering, red cross, etc.

Non-Clinical Work Experience:
Spent 4 years working in medical device R&D after grad school. Worked on 2 FDA approvals, several medical devices, and was a leader within the company.

Community Volunteering:
A lot of community volunteering over the past 10 years, at least ~5,000 hours. Everything from after helping with school high school programs, coaching high school wrestling, working with veterans, habitat for humanity, etc.

Letters of Rec:
Strong letters from PI's and doctors/medical directors who were my direct supervisors and knew me on a personal level

For what it's worth, I have a strong relationship with my current neurology PI/medical director, and my dream would be to continue neuro research as a medical student here at the medical school I currently work at.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

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[dl2dp2]

I honestly don't think you have a very good shot, and you don't really have a lot of time to waste. The low postbacc GPA and MCAT will be gatekeepers. It's possible that you won't even get many interviews to MD PhD programs.

I would go ahead and apply to DO schools and aim to do very well in medical school and apply for research-oriented residency and fellowships at major academic medical centers in neurology or psychiatry. These are far less competitive than MD/PhD programs and would be willing to take applicants of your profile (DO grads with lots of research experience).

Good news is that you can apply to both MD/PhD programs AND DO schools in the same cycle, which is what I would do immediately. File everything by June 1st.

 

[Bronski]

I honestly don't think you have a very good shot, and you don't really have a lot of time to waste. The low postbacc GPA and MCAT will be gatekeepers. It's possible that you won't even get many interviews to MD PhD programs.

I would go ahead and apply to DO schools and aim to do very well in medical school and apply for research-oriented residency and fellowships at major academic medical centers in neurology or psychiatry. These are far less competitive than MD/PhD programs and would be willing to take applicants of your profile (DO grads with lots of research experience).

Good news is that you can apply to both MD/PhD programs AND DO schools in the same cycle, which is what I would do immediately. File everything by June 1st.

Thank you for the feedback. I figured this was likely the case.

 

[Neuronix]

Why not PhD only?

Your strength is clearly on the research side.

GPA and MCAT are not just there as filters. The MD side is full of coursework and exams. A classic applicant type has a weak GPA but kicks it into high gear more recently with a high MCAT score to try to show their growth.

You haven't managed to accomplish this despite two MCAT attempts. It would make me too nervous as an adcom that you'd be able to handle the work (MD/PhD or MD-only) and make it all the way through board certification.

 

[Bronski]

Why not PhD only?

Your strength is clearly on the research side.

GPA and MCAT are not just there as filters. The MD side is full of coursework and exams. A classic applicant type has a weak GPA but kicks it into high gear more recently with a high MCAT score to try to show their growth.

You haven't managed to accomplish this despite two MCAT attempts. It would make me too nervous as an adcom that you'd be able to handle the work (MD/PhD or MD-only) and make it all the way through board certification.

Thank you for the feedback.

I'm very interested in research, but it comes second to my goal of patient care and service. Both are important to me, but if I had to choose one to focus on, it would be patient care every time.

It's helpful to know that there will be doubts around someone like me making it across the finish line, so to speak. Thanks for the honesty.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Thank you for the feedback.

I'm very interested in research, but it comes second to my goal of patient care and service. Both are important to me, but if I had to choose one to focus on, it would be patient care every time.

It's helpful to know that there will be doubts around someone like me making it across the finish line, so to speak. Thanks for the honesty.

That's not what your profile says. 10 pubs, 1 patent, 2 FDA applications, help with an R01, 6K hours of research including with clinical trials. Clinical volunteering basically uses our background in engineering as an imaging tech. Awards in grad school.

Where's the 5000 hours of EMT/paramedic? Where's your CNA/medical assistant work? Maybe you have free clinic work embedded in your 3000+ hours of volunteering, but it's funny how you don't mention anything clinical or directed at patient care in which you do what you can to lighten someone's suffering. I see you have Habitat and maybe some veteran work, but I don't see you listing the same accomplishments in these areas as you have your research/engineering/tech stuff.

Your hours, accomplishments, and your words show me your passion. I don't see patient care.

 

[kvinal]

these guys (mrsmile in particular) are ridiculous and shouldn't be advising you to give up on your doctor dream so easily. i received similar advice ~3 years ago and it nearly derailed my application process. it's scary - you see ppl with a bunch of badges and its easy to think they're gurus on ppl's career without interacting with you. they set these arbitrary hoops u have to jump thru to prove ur good enough - 5000 hrs of emt is insane... esp because you're devoting yourself to other activities. it's really challenging to get quality varied clinical experience and you were able to get that... that's a win.

i understand the point that the md/phd could be challenging given ur mcat score and acknowledge it, but if you want this and want it badly it's not impossible. i just wanted to say that given ur getting some really strong advice in the opposite direction from ppl who don't know enough about you to make such claims. i got md/phd interviews from 3 t50s and 1 t20 with ~150 hours of clinical experience and a heartfelt story about why i wanted to be in medicine. its great that you're trying to be honest with yourself about your chances - i would just hesitate on being too honest with yourself either. a little delusion is important, particular for non-trads. i'd advise applying early and broadly across every range of competitiveness; you never know what's gonna hit.

 

[Bronski]

these guys (mrsmile in particular) are ridiculous and shouldn't be advising you to give up on your doctor dream so easily. i received similar advice ~3 years ago and it nearly derailed my application process. it's scary - you see ppl with a bunch of badges and its easy to think they're gurus on ppl's career without interacting with you. they set these arbitrary hoops u have to jump thru to prove ur good enough - 5000 hrs of emt is insane... esp because you're devoting yourself to other activities. it's really challenging to get quality varied clinical experience and you were able to get that... that's a win.

i understand the point that the md/phd could be challenging given ur mcat score and acknowledge it, but if you want this and want it badly it's not impossible. i just wanted to say that given ur getting some really strong advice in the opposite direction from ppl who don't know enough about you to make such claims. i got md/phd interviews from 3 t50s and 1 t20 with ~150 hours of clinical experience and a heartfelt story about why i wanted to be in medicine. its great that you're trying to be honest with yourself about your chances - i would just hesitate on being too honest with yourself either. a little delusion is important, particular for non-trads. i'd advise applying early and broadly across every range of competitiveness; you never know what's gonna hit.

Hey thanks for stopping by to share some modesty and level headedness, thats kind of unique around these parts. There should be a badge for that, but I dont think that’s how that works apparently.

I almost typed out a heartfelt response as to why the previous comment had absolutely 0 idea about what my life is about, or how much of my life has revolved around taking care of my sick family and just overall dragging my feet through the mud and gritting my teeth. But then I realized it’s not really worth it, and I can’t blame that person for not knowing what I’ve been through. But jeez, the snide remarks really do make my blood boil sometimes lol.

At the end of the day, this is an online forum, what do I really expect? People can sit in their underwear in their rolly desk chair and make themselves feel good by sharing their feedback, all while never having to look someone in the eyes while doing so. Because of the nature of the platform, there’s never any consequence for putting someone down, or making assumptions. There’s also this unique power dynamic among “experts”. Oh my, how different these conversations would be if they were not anonymous. But this has its benefits too. In many instances it’s helpful, but in many instances it’s also immature, cowardly, and just plain old nonsense. Oh well, gotta take the good with the bad,

Thanks for sharing your side of things, it’s nice to know I’m not the only one. I’m also happy to hear that it worked out for you. Good luck wherever you are in your medicine journey.

 

[Neuronix]

My advice:

Take the good advice with the bad advice and decide internally what you want to do. There's no need to argue with someone who gives you advice you don't agree with.

As an aside, I've learned many times over the years that just because someone is looking in your eyes, smiling at you, and telling you what you want to hear, that doesn't mean they're giving you good advice.

Get a thick skin. MD/PhD is not easy.

You will get a lot of anonymous feedback over the years, and you have to learn how to deal with it. You would also likely not be responding this way to your grant or paper reviewers, despite them rejecting you for things that can be completely ridiculous.

Absolutely you should supplement online advice with in person advice. You won't find me in my office in my underwear though, sorry to disappoint.

 

[Bronski]

My advice:

Take the good advice with the bad advice
Get a thick skin
You will get a lot of anonymous feedback over the years, and you have to learn how to deal with it
Absolutely you should supplement online advice with in person advice. You won't find me in my office in my underwear though, sorry to disappoint.

Lol fair enough, I’m sure your colleagues appreciate the pants. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Bronski]

That's not what your profile says. 10 pubs, 1 patent, 2 FDA applications, help with an R01, 6K hours of research including with clinical trials. Clinical volunteering basically uses our background in engineering as an imaging tech. Awards in grad school.

Where's the 5000 hours of EMT/paramedic? Where's your CNA/medical assistant work? Maybe you have free clinic work embedded in your 3000+ hours of volunteering, but it's funny how you don't mention anything clinical or directed at patient care in which you do what you can to lighten someone's suffering. I see you have Habitat and maybe some veteran work, but I don't see you listing the same accomplishments in these areas as you have your research/engineering/tech stuff.

Your hours, accomplishments, and your words show me your passion. I don't see patient care.

You’ve never read my “profile” though. Remember the old saying, “Don’t judge a book by its cover”? In this case, you haven’t even bought the book. I’m not gonna have a pissing match with you about who knows more about the meaning of caring for others in need. I don’t think you’d win that one. Ya wanna know why? Because you assume that caring for others in need only comes from a job title that you’re familiar with, as if it was a quantifiable metric. There is no bragging or accomplishments or rewards that come from helping people who are sick and struggling, it’s tough, sad, it sucks, and often times it’s not a happy outcome. People who go through this stuff tend to keep it to themselves and not use it as a bargaining chip for career advancement. You may be an expert on admissions, Mr. Smiley, but don’t confuse that with knowing more about other things in life, especially with strangers.

 

[tr]

Just here to say that I'm all about posting in my underwear.

As an aside, OP I have to agree that your UG GPA and MCAT are going filter you out of most MD/PhD admissions pools before you ever get a chance to tell the rest of your story to a human being. I think the advice you've received to apply DO is solid. Good luck to you.

 

[Bronski]

Just here to say that I'm all about posting in my underwear.

As an aside, OP I have to agree that your UG GPA and MCAT are going filter you out of most MD/PhD admissions pools before you ever get a chance to tell the rest of your story to a human being. I think the advice you've received to apply DO is solid. Good luck to you.

1 for no underwear, 1 for underwear, we’re tied up at this point.

Thanks for the advice. A shot at DO would be amazing. I’ll find out soon.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

You’ve never read my “profile” though. Remember the old saying, “Don’t judge a book by its cover”? In this case, you haven’t even bought the book. I’m not gonna have a pissing match with you about who knows more about the meaning of caring for others in need. I don’t think you’d win that one. Ya wanna know why? Because you assume that caring for others in need only comes from a job title that you’re familiar with, as if it was a quantifiable metric. There is no bragging or accomplishments or rewards that come from helping people who are sick and struggling, it’s tough, sad, it sucks, and often times it’s not a happy outcome. People who go through this stuff tend to keep it to themselves and not use it as a bargaining chip for career advancement. You may be an expert on admissions, Mr. Smiley, but don’t confuse that with knowing more about other things in life, especially with strangers.

Jesus, dude. Are you here for help or for praise? I'm specifically commenting on what you posted in your profile that started this thread.

Admissions is all about making decisions on impressions. Like dating. Thank you, next.

Hello,

Could anyone offer some advice on whether it's realistic for me to aim for MD/DO + PhD programs for this upcoming application cycle? It seems like a long shot given my scores and the competitive applicant pool. I have not reached out to anyone directly in the MD/PhD admissions community, but my current research mentors have pushed me to give it a shot. Granted, these are all PhD's, or MD's, and none of them have gone through an MD/PhD program. They also don't interact with the admissions side of things. From what I can tell, it seems like my only shot at medical school as of now are some of the newer DO programs out there.

I'm an older (31) non-traditional applicant, 1st gen, who has qualified for FAP, and hoping to be considered “disadvantaged” based on economic factors.

Scores:
Undergrad GPA: 3.0
Grad school (Biomedical Eng./Design) GPA: 3.8
Postbac GPA: 3.2*
Cumulative GPA (unweighted): ~3.2
MCAT: 501; 506

*Combination of family health, working full-time, and COVID hit me hard. My trajectory is upward, with nearly straight A's in the last 20 credits of the program.

Research Experience:
Lab Experience: Worked with 3 big labs over the past 5 years
Fields: Medical devices, wearables, fMRI, neuroscience/neurology, neurocritical care
Publications: 10 published, ~5 in the works (Mix of bigger names like Nature, Science, etc. as well smaller journals. I have 2 first author papers that I'm hoping will be published within the next 12-18 months)
Research hours: At least ~5,000
Posters: Several
Patents: 1 in progress
Awards: Some grad school awards, as well as a Nature Medicine Spinoff award
Grants: Helped write a successful R01
Other: Currently an undergraduate research supervisor and have helped a lot of undergrads get involved with published research and poster presentations.

Clinical Work Experience:
Experience: Currently an fMRI tech and clinical imaging manager at my local medical school (T20 public school) and their affiliated hospital. I've been in this role for about 18 months, which has been an awesome gig.
Clinical Hours: ~1,500
Clinical Trials: Helped develop and manage 2 small clinical trials

Clinical Volunteer Experience:
~500 hours. Some unique projects like doing x rays for free dental clinics and designing prosthetics for children for a non-profit as well as more traditional avenues like hospital volunteering, red cross, etc.

Non-Clinical Work Experience:
Spent 4 years working in medical device R&D after grad school. Worked on 2 FDA approvals, several medical devices, and was a leader within the company.

Community Volunteering:
A lot of community volunteering over the past 10 years, at least ~5,000 hours. Everything from after helping with school high school programs, coaching high school wrestling, working with veterans, habitat for humanity, etc.

Letters of Rec:
Strong letters from PI's and doctors/medical directors who were my direct supervisors and knew me on a personal level

For what it's worth, I have a strong relationship with my current neurology PI/medical director, and my dream would be to continue neuro research as a medical student here at the medical school I currently work at.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

these guys (mrsmile in particular) are ridiculous and shouldn't be advising you to give up on your doctor dream so easily. i received similar advice ~3 years ago and it nearly derailed my application process. it's scary - you see ppl with a bunch of badges and its easy to think they're gurus on ppl's career without interacting with you. they set these arbitrary hoops u have to jump thru to prove ur good enough - 5000 hrs of emt is insane... esp because you're devoting yourself to other activities. it's really challenging to get quality varied clinical experience and you were able to get that... that's a win.

i understand the point that the md/phd could be challenging given ur mcat score and acknowledge it, but if you want this and want it badly it's not impossible. i just wanted to say that given ur getting some really strong advice in the opposite direction from ppl who don't know enough about you to make such claims. i got md/phd interviews from 3 t50s and 1 t20 with ~150 hours of clinical experience and a heartfelt story about why i wanted to be in medicine. its great that you're trying to be honest with yourself about your chances - i would just hesitate on being too honest with yourself either. a little delusion is important, particular for non-trads. i'd advise applying early and broadly across every range of competitiveness; you never know what's gonna hit.

Welcome to the forums! I appreciate the attention you give to me in your first-ever post! I look forward to reviewing your profile and see whether my impressions are starkly in contrast with the consensus of the experts we have convened here.

Shark Tank is pretty ridiculous too. Wait until you meet academics who review your applications with more axes to grind than me. At least we say the silent stuff aloud here. Your mileage may vary, but I am open to other perspectives.

 

[ddhopeful]

Thank you for the feedback. I figured this was likely the case.

Hello,

Could anyone offer some advice on whether it's realistic for me to aim for MD/DO + PhD programs for this upcoming application cycle? It seems like a long shot given my scores and the competitive applicant pool. I have not reached out to anyone directly in the MD/PhD admissions community, but my current research mentors have pushed me to give it a shot. Granted, these are all PhD's, or MD's, and none of them have gone through an MD/PhD program. They also don't interact with the admissions side of things. From what I can tell, it seems like my only shot at medical school as of now are some of the newer DO programs out there.

I'm an older (31) non-traditional applicant, 1st gen, who has qualified for FAP, and hoping to be considered “disadvantaged” based on economic factors.

Scores:
Undergrad GPA: 3.0
Grad school (Biomedical Eng./Design) GPA: 3.8
Postbac GPA: 3.2*
Cumulative GPA (unweighted): ~3.2
MCAT: 501; 506

*Combination of family health, working full-time, and COVID hit me hard. My trajectory is upward, with nearly straight A's in the last 20 credits of the program.

Research Experience:
Lab Experience: Worked with 3 big labs over the past 5 years
Fields: Medical devices, wearables, fMRI, neuroscience/neurology, neurocritical care
Publications: 10 published, ~5 in the works (Mix of bigger names like Nature, Science, etc. as well smaller journals. I have 2 first author papers that I'm hoping will be published within the next 12-18 months)
Research hours: At least ~5,000
Posters: Several
Patents: 1 in progress
Awards: Some grad school awards, as well as a Nature Medicine Spinoff award
Grants: Helped write a successful R01
Other: Currently an undergraduate research supervisor and have helped a lot of undergrads get involved with published research and poster presentations.

Clinical Work Experience:
Experience: Currently an fMRI tech and clinical imaging manager at my local medical school (T20 public school) and their affiliated hospital. I've been in this role for about 18 months, which has been an awesome gig.
Clinical Hours: ~1,500
Clinical Trials: Helped develop and manage 2 small clinical trials

Clinical Volunteer Experience:
~500 hours. Some unique projects like doing x rays for free dental clinics and designing prosthetics for children for a non-profit as well as more traditional avenues like hospital volunteering, red cross, etc.

Non-Clinical Work Experience:
Spent 4 years working in medical device R&D after grad school. Worked on 2 FDA approvals, several medical devices, and was a leader within the company.

Community Volunteering:
A lot of community volunteering over the past 10 years, at least ~5,000 hours. Everything from after helping with school high school programs, coaching high school wrestling, working with veterans, habitat for humanity, etc.

Letters of Rec:
Strong letters from PI's and doctors/medical directors who were my direct supervisors and knew me on a personal level

For what it's worth, I have a strong relationship with my current neurology PI/medical director, and my dream would be to continue neuro research as a medical student here at the medical school I currently work at.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

Look at DO-PhD at a program such as Michigan State: D.O.-Ph.D. Program | MSU Osteopathic Medicine