Mask question

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TwoHighways said:
What’s the risk of transmission between a non-masked, infected person and someone wearing a mask that isn’t infected and maintains a distance of six feet?

How much asymptomatic spread is actually occurring? How many people have recovered and/or developed immunity and are no longer able to spread the virus?
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This is a brand new virus, I don’t think we 100% know the answers to all these things. However there’s a reasonable assumption from what we’ve seen so far that masks do help mitigate transmission of droplets. There’s always a debate about asymptomatic vs presymptomatic spread. Regardless it seems pretty clear that people can be feeling fine and then spend time with others and Covid spreads.

Lastly, I said it previously if research shows that masks do absolutely nothing in the future I’m 100% ok with saying I/we were wrong. But for now wearing a mask is not a huge deal and I’d prefer to be cautious if it’s possible to help others around me. If we find out we were wrong, then oh well, lesson learned and we’ll never have to wear masks in the hospital again.

Why people are putting so much energy and anger in to this is beyond me.
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Also I don’t know where you live, but people are nasty. Standing in line at the store, on the subway, in the office people are coughing, sneezing, etc. Sure if it were possible for everyone to stay home when they had to cough or we could all remain super distanced then sure masks might not be necessary, but that’s not the reality of the world.
 
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People shaming others for not wearing masks and people freaking out about having to wear them are both terrible sorts of people operating on emotional grounds over logic, and are guilty of assuming the worst in others. I don’t care for masking at all, but I’m not going to be twitter fodder if a business or institution wants me to mask up before entering. I’m just saying the science behind them isn’t a slam dunk and there’s obviously a lot we don’t know. Questioning what we assume to be true and not fooling ourselves is the golden rule of science. Viral pathogens have been around longer than humans have. I see no need for covid hysteria or denialism (without taking into account risk factors and what we actually know about it).
 
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TwoHighways said:
People shaming others for not wearing masks and people freaking out about having to wear them are both terrible sorts of people operating on emotional grounds over logic, and are guilty of assuming the worst in others. I don’t care for them at all, but I’m not going to be twitter fodder if a business or institution wants people to mask up before entering.
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Shaming people for not wearing masks is idiotic because the health experts were wrong.

time.com

Public Health Experts Keep Changing Their Guidance on Whether or Not to Wear Face Masks for Coronavirus

The government and most health experts keep telling the public not to wear face masks for coronavirus. So why are they doing it anyway?
time.com time.com
 
We were told specifically for the first couple months of the pandemic, "Don't wear masks in the hospital outside the ED because it will scare people."

Now it's, "Put a mask on in the parking lot on your way inside."

Getting ready to bar hopping downtown and looking forward to wearing a bandana from the entrance to the bar, then immediately taking it off.

??

Ran some errands on my bike this morning and just walked around the store with a motorcycle helmet on. whatever..
 
e30ftw said:
More fallacies... reductio ad absurdum. not interested in being drawn into this type of discussion.
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WilcoWorld said:
I'm confused - are you saying that reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy?
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It appears that you are not going to respond to my question, so I'm going to post the following because I'm a nerd about these things and thus probably take accusations of fallacious reasoning too seriously.

The reductio ad absurdum is not a logical fallacy, it is one of the classic methods of proof in logic and math, going back at least as far as Euclid.
Here's a brief explanation of it.

If I misunderstood your earlier post, please accept this as an apology in advance.
 
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Right on.

I still think seeing someone smile is different than looking at a bunch of random perineums, but you do you.
 
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Can't build Herd immunity if people are quarantined. It'll just be a really bad winter with COVID and the Flu. The flu already kills 10's of thousands despite Herd Immunity AND vaccines. Let that sink in.
 
asdf123g said:
Can't build Herd immunity if people are quarantined. It'll just be a really bad winter with COVID and the Flu. The flu already kills 10's of thousands despite Herd Immunity AND vaccines. Let that sink in.
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I would agree with this, despite the uncertainty in the length of COVID immunity or mutation rate. It seems the best way to avoid a disastrous winter for respiratory illness is to have as many young and healthy people infected now as possible.

Which is kind of what we’re doing, .

It’s probably still going to be a total disaster though. Something to look forward to.
 
e30ftw said:
I would agree with this, despite the uncertainty in the length of COVID immunity or mutation rate. It seems the best way to avoid a disastrous winter for respiratory illness is to have as many young and healthy people infected now as possible.

Which is kind of what we’re doing, .

It’s probably still going to be a total disaster though. Something to look forward to.
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I stopped keeping up with COVID since its been so politicized so I apologize, but is there something about this strain of corona that it is more likely to mutate? Influenza mutates a bit every year. Either way, then a vaccine means **** all anyways. (Being facetious) At this rate we'll all die of the common cold from being in isolation so long as our immunity wanes.

Right now its like we're half-committed to both quarantine and opening back up and it just hurts everyone. Pick a side. I say open the economy back up. There's too many people anyways to enforce quarantine, we're not china. Ever been to a house party in college, and the cops come due to a noise distubance, everyone quiets down for 30 seconds to a minute, then some people start whispering, then people are talking a little louder, and next thing you know the party is busted. Its the same thing here with quarantine. Let people carry on with their lives. If some people still don't feel safe, let them stay inside. If people want to go out (and 'risk their lives') that's on them. Either way, we need herd immunity (vaccine takes too long) and this shut down needs to be ended.
 
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La Cumbre Lines said:
have only gone out to one brewery in the past 4 months. I found the experience not enjoyable given the distanced tables, defined times to stay, everyone required to wear masks and just the general social unease amongst everyone. I wish everything would return to normal, but don't expect it to until 2021-2022. The on
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asdf123g said:
I stopped keeping up with COVID since its been so politicized so I apologize, but is there something about this strain of corona that it is more likely to mutate? Influenza mutates a bit every year. Either way, then a vaccine means **** all anyways. (Being facetious) At this rate we'll all die of the common cold from being in isolation so long as our immunity wanes.

Right now its like we're half-committed to both quarantine and opening back up and it just hurts everyone. Pick a side. I say open the economy back up. There's too many people anyways to enforce quarantine, we're not china. Ever been to a house party in college, and the cops come due to a noise distubance, everyone quiets down for 30 seconds to a minute, then some people start whispering, then people are talking a little louder, and next thing you know the party is busted. Its the same thing here with quarantine. Let people carry on with their lives. If some people still don't feel safe, let them stay inside. If people want to go out (and 'risk their lives') that's on them. Either way, we need herd immunity (vaccine takes too long) and this shut down needs to be ended.
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But you don't understand. We've become a society 100% risk adverse and prepared to prevent every death ant any cost.
 
La Cumbre Lines said:
Sometimes patients dramatically state they think they are dying (when clearly they aren’t at that movement). In the right patient I sometimes say, “You’re right, we all are.” Usually gets a good reaction, although has burned me before. I also like the line “all bleeding stops eventually” when people say the bleeding won’t/wouldn’t stop, usually after they present with a resolved nose bleed.

I also don’t plan to ever die. I think I’ll live forever since that sounds nice. 100ish years ago you’d already be dead after you hit your 30s. Once you think about that, how good we do have it living in the US as physicians, and see death and other bad outcomes frequently in the ED, you start to feel pretty blessed and become pretty comfortable with mortality. I hope to keep living for quite a while longer, but I’m not too worried about dying. I would prefer a painless death earlier than 80 rather than living into my 90s circling the drain with a low quality of life. Quality over quantity. That’s what society should focus on, not keeping 100% of everyone alive.
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Yep! What people don’t realize is that it’s the choices you make at 30 and beyond that will determine the quality of your life further down the road. I’m playing the long game, knowing full well that I’m gunna die someday regardless. I’ve seen enough NH patients in my life to never want to need the assistance of someone else just to get off the floor after a fall.
 
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La Cumbre Lines said:
I once had former attending of mine say something along the lines of, “I’m going to go skydiving once a year after I turn 70. If I’m too demented to remember to pull the cord, too disabled to be able to, or too depressed to want to, then I’ll die a beautiful death not a moment too soon.”
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My Boomer parents-in-law firmly believe they will live forever. They aren't that healthy, and are already almost 70. The thing pre-covid they enjoyed doing most was interacting with their grandchildren. They haven't seen them in almost 4 months, and will likely be another year before they do. They'd rather live longer, and not enjoy doing the things they like most.

I'd rather enjoy life and take a few manageable risks than be shut away, especially towards the end.
 
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TwoHighways said:
What’s the risk of transmission between a non-masked, infected person and someone wearing a mask that isn’t infected and maintains a distance of six feet?

How much asymptomatic spread is actually occurring? How many people have recovered and/or developed immunity and are no longer able to spread the virus?
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Literally zero risk of transmission

That's literally what you're doing at work

Going in and out of COVID+ rooms where no one but you has a simple face mask on and you're not getting infected.
 
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wamcp said:
Literally zero risk of transmission

That's literally what you're doing at work

Going in and out of COVID+ rooms where no one but you has a simple face mask on and you're not getting infected.
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Your group doesn't mask symptomatic patients? Are you short of PPE?
 
GeneralVeers said:
My Boomer parents-in-law firmly believe they will live forever. They aren't that healthy, and are already almost 70. The thing pre-covid they enjoyed doing most was interacting with their grandchildren. They haven't seen them in almost 4 months, and will likely be another year before they do. They'd rather live longer, and not enjoy doing the things they like most.

I'd rather enjoy life and take a few manageable risks than be shut away, especially towards the end.
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It seems like there could be a happy medium- maybe see the grandkids outdoors?
 
asdf123g said:
View attachment 312572
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What essential liberty are you giving up by wearing a mask?

I admitted a few under 40 COVID positive patients my last few shifts. I'm sure they'll do fine. Unfortunately, they're clogging up our hospital so patients have had to board in the ED for days, including an ICU patient that boarded for nearly 5 days. We've had to turn away transfers to our tertiary care center. COVID will likely not result in direct mortality for many of these patients, but we know boarding does increase mortality, and if the little hospitals eventually find a place to transfer their patients, they'll also suffer due to delays and further choke up the system with their transfers hours and hundreds of miles away. But thanks for being a patriot and fighting the tyranny of wearing an uncomfortable piece of cloth every now and then.
 
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The self-righteousness of people is impressive. While theoretically masks might make a difference we don't know for sure, and we don't know to what degree. It may be a huge improvement, it may be insignificant. To pretend we know this is insane. Do I think they make some difference? Probably. Do I think it will appreciably reduce the overall number of people who get sick? No.

Lockdowns and social-distancing are the same. They make a theoretical difference, but in the absence of a controlled experiment to give us data, we simply don't know.
 
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GeneralVeers said:
The self-righteousness of people is impressive.
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To whom do you refer with this? To be quite candid, for me, it's difficult to follow who believes what. The socialist folks, they're pretty clear. Otherwise, I don't know. Are you speaking of the self-righteous who refuse to mask, despite the trivial difficulty, or those that mask and shame those that don't?

Here in NY, el gobernador, Andrew Cuomo, dictated that everyone wear one. Upstate, where I live, it's not even an issue. As I say, masking is trivial. Stores enforce it. It's real. And, not real trouble.
 
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La Cumbre Lines said:
I’m not sure GeneralVeers intent, although I could guess based upon prior posts. I do think there is a “self righteous” attitude on both sides of this issue at times. You illustrate this idea well with the words I bolded. I don’t know that GeneralVeers was referring to both sides (I suspect maybe more one side), but I don’t think GeneralVeers necessarily disagrees with the bolded. This issue has become so hyperbolic when it shouldn’t be.
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All true, but, still, I don't know which way his flag flies, on this issue/statement.
 
La Cumbre Lines said:
I’m not sure GeneralVeers intent, although I could guess based upon prior posts. I do think there is a “self righteous” attitude on both sides of this issue at times. You illustrate this idea well with the words I bolded. I don’t know that GeneralVeers was referring to both sides (I suspect maybe more one side), but I don’t think GeneralVeers necessarily disagrees with the bolded. This issue has become so hyperbolic when it shouldn’t be.
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As y'all pointed out, its a problem on both sides. On the one, we have people who think you should have to wear a mask the moment you step outside your house. These are the people who wear masks when driving alone in their cars.

On the other you have people who threaten teenagers when told they must wear masks inside of a private business: Berea ice cream shop: Stop yelling at our teenage employees about masks

Here's the thing though. While the science isn't settled on masks (and likely never will be for some people), there is a lot of stuff out there suggesting that they do reduce spread (the Missouri Great Clips is what convinced me). For 99% of the population they are harmless beyond being annoying. So it shouldn't be hard to get everyone on board to wearing a mask when indoors in public places. The problem is we have the self righteous who think we should sleep in the things and shun everyone who disagrees and on the other end a combination of "Freedom, 'Murica" and "we don't have 19 RCTs showing they work so they must not make a big difference".

It should be easy: wear your mask inside public places, don't be an dingus to people not wearing masks in very low risk settings, be nice to people and quit ruining everything.
 
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Are we just prolonging the suffering by adopting mask mandates, assuming they do slow the transmission? Or do people think that this thing would simply go away if we all wore masks all the time for a long enough period? Can we expect a vaccine to be effective if we cannot achieve immunity through actual exposure to the virus?
 
TwoHighways said:
Are we just prolonging the suffering by adopting mask mandates, assuming they do slow the transmission? Or do people think that this thing would simply go away if we all wore masks all the time for a long enough period? Can we expect a vaccine to be effective if we cannot achieve immunity through actual exposure to the virus?
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For those of us not in either camp, its what its always been - to not overwhelm hospitals.

And yes, we can expect vaccines to work without a natural immunity. HPV is a great example of that.
 
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TwoHighways said:
Are we just prolonging the suffering by adopting mask mandates, assuming they do slow the transmission?
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Maybe. But the reason I personally support wearing masks is more psychological, than epidemiological. Let people do something simple and easy that makes them feel better, so we can all move on with life. If it reduces transmission by 50%, 10% or 0%, so be it. If many people wear them, but some refuse and it can't be fully enforced, so be it. If it reduces transmission a bit, great. If not, that's okay, too. Whatever it takes for people to come out of hiding and move on with life with as little anxiety as possible.
 
Birdstrike said:
Maybe. But the reason I personally support wearing masks is more psychological, than epidemiological. Let people do something simple and easy that makes them feel better, so we can all move on with life. If it reduces transmission by 50%, 10% or 0%, so be it. If many people wear them, but some refuse and it can't be fully enforced, so be it. If it reduces transmission a bit, great. If not, that's okay, too. Whatever it takes for people to come out of hiding and move on with life with as little anxiety as possible.
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My problem is that people are treating it like a religion. They "KNOW" that masks will stop infection, even though we don't know anything of the kind. We can guess, hypothesize, and theorize, but we don't really know for a fact the degree of effect they have.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
The former from your post of the 2 ends of the spectrum
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Wow - that really sounds like "walking on eggshells", which is atypical for you. This is not to say that you are indelicate or loudmouthed; actually, quite the opposite. However, usually, there is much more clarity and precision. But, thanks for the update!
 
Apollyon said:
All true, but, still, I don't know which way his flag flies, on this issue/statement.
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I also think he has made it abundantly clear elsewhere:

GeneralVeers said:
I will gladly go out in public without a mask. They can issue me a ticket which I will not pay, and I will go to jail if needed.
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GeneralVeers said:
It's uncomfortable, gross (the mask gets wet really quickly), and I can't breathe very well while walking at a brisk pace. So I'm not willing to endure mild discomfort just to virtue signal and make others feel better.

Plus I'm contrarian, and generally don't obey arbitrary or non-sensical rules.
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La Cumbre Lines said:
I think it’s somewhat of an assumption that the poster was intending that specific image without commentary towards masks alone, and then also a little untoward to personally degrade them in a condescending way. While the title is about masks, the conversation surrounding this post has been addressing several other points. I feel you are expressing your frustration of working in an overcrowded environment by attacking others that might have different ideas than yourself. The evidence regarding masks is imperfect and unclear still. What gives you the confidence that if 100% of people, wore masks 100% of the time, your hospital wouldn’t still be overcrowded at this moment? Also isn’t this a reflection as well of a for profit health care industry that values having bed capacity filled as close to 100% as possible, 100% of the time, prior to a pandemic striking? Hospitals have become high end hotel businesses. Like I have previously posted, we need a little more positive sounding discourse when discussing ways in which we disagree.
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The thread is about masks, but I don't think there's anything related here that merits comparison to founding fathers. I'd be happy to hear someone explain such a comparison, though despite being widely shared through social media, I've yet to see anyone explain how this is an erosion of what makes us Americans.

My personal workload is actually lighter, since I've recently had fewer open beds to see patients in and they languish in the waiting room after screening by the midlevels until they finally come back or decide to elope. I can't say for certain perfect mask compliance would mean we'd have plenty of inpatient beds, but it's a pretty low effort intervention that has some data to support it, so it seems worth it to give it a shot. I also return my shopping carts to the rack at the grocery store and clean the ultrasound after I use it because it only takes a little bit of effort to make things better for the people around me.

GeneralVeers said:
The self-righteousness of people is impressive. While theoretically masks might make a difference we don't know for sure, and we don't know to what degree. It may be a huge improvement, it may be insignificant. To pretend we know this is insane. Do I think they make some difference? Probably. Do I think it will appreciably reduce the overall number of people who get sick? No.

Lockdowns and social-distancing are the same. They make a theoretical difference, but in the absence of a controlled experiment to give us data, we simply don't know.
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Self righteousness seems a little harsh. I actually thought masks seemed stupid at first and am still concerned about all the cloth masks in use, but after seeing some evidence it's helpful, seeing how ugly things are getting, and considering that just a minuscule amount of effort and discomfort may save some lives, prevent permanent disability, and possibly speed up the reversal of my pay cut and returning to a normal social life, it's hard to come up with a reason not to give it a try.

Sure, we don't have large RCTs it makes a huge difference, but that's not a reasonable expectation in a 6-7 month old disease process. You might as well quit medicine anyway, since lots of what we do also don't enjoy much evidence to support them. That said, I don't know how you can suggest that staying away from others wouldn't decrease the spread of an infectious disease.
 
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Birdstrike said:
Maybe. But the reason I personally support wearing masks is more psychological, than epidemiological. Let people do something simple and easy that makes them feel better, so we can all move on with life. If it reduces transmission by 50%, 10% or 0%, so be it. If many people wear them, but some refuse and it can't be fully enforced, so be it. If it reduces transmission a bit, great. If not, that's okay, too. Whatever it takes for people to come out of hiding and move on with life with as little anxiety as possible.
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I'm wearing masks mainly out of protest against the experts who argued against wearing them in Feb and Mar before switching their recommendations.
 
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La Cumbre Lines said:
Reverse psychology persuasion?

I think a lot of experts early on tried to convince the general public not to wear masks primarily because of the potential massive health care shortage of PPE, not primarily because they weren’t effective. There also was limited to no evidence of benefit at that time, as for some reason the method of transmission of COVID-19 (clearly viral respiratory illness behaving like other airborne/droplet spread) was unclear. Given potential limited benefit plus further worsening a health care shortage of PPE they put out a message to the panicked public to not wear masks at that time. As the situation changed, the message appropriately changed.
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PPE shortage was extremely disappointing but i was hoping PPE would be produced and regulated entirely in the US rather than relying on imports. Also i was pretty annoyed with some bold claims i saw on CDC that initially discouraged wearing homemade masks for being ineffective before changing their recommendations.

I really believe if masks were clearly recommended without the confusion, masks wouldn't be so politicized and we possibly could've saved many lives with these safety measures. So i just wear masks in public settings until the pandemic is over and/or there's a good vaccine.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
For those of us not in either camp, its what its always been - to not overwhelm hospitals.

And yes, we can expect vaccines to work without a natural immunity. HPV is a great example of that.
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Nope, the only cure is for everyone to sleep with everyone because science
 
AMEHigh said:
Obviously I have no idea how long mask wearing will be recommended, but like I said other countries wear masks more regularly when illness is going around and it really isn’t the end of the world. We adapted to wearing clothes, shoes, seatbelts, etc. It will be ok if masks are around for awhile.
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THIS. I don't object to businesses posting "no shirt / no shoes / no service" so why would I object to "No mask / no service"? They're just not a big deal. Italy was almost a goner and now they're doing OK. It's amazing what compliance, healthy habits, and common sense can accomplish.
 
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Lawpy said:
PPE shortage was extremely disappointing but i was hoping PPE would be produced and regulated entirely in the US rather than relying on imports. Also i was pretty annoyed with some bold claims i saw on CDC that initially discouraged wearing homemade masks for being ineffective before changing their recommendations.

I really believe if masks were clearly recommended without the confusion, masks wouldn't be so politicized and we possibly could've saved many lives with these safety measures. So i just wear masks in public settings until the pandemic is over and/or there's a good vaccine.
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Can you provide a source. I don't recall the CDC advocating against homemade cloth coverings. I do recall the surgeon general asking people to stop hoarding masks, which were in short supply in hospitals.

I mean, the mask situation was pretty ridiculous. People were stealing masks from the ER, people were hoarding N95s in order to resell them, etc...
 
e30ftw said:
We were told specifically for the first couple months of the pandemic, "Don't wear masks in the hospital outside the ED because it will scare people."

Now it's, "Put a mask on in the parking lot on your way inside."

Getting ready to bar hopping downtown and looking forward to wearing a bandana from the entrance to the bar, then immediately taking it off.

??

Ran some errands on my bike this morning and just walked around the store with a motorcycle helmet on. whatever..
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So much this. I look for humor in everything.

I saw a man wearing a thong as a mask.
I saw a woman wearing a sleeping eye mask over her mouth nose as a mask.
I have seen various Halloween masks.
Welding mask.
Ski mask.
Bandanna with a cowboy hat (used to play bad cowboy as a kid dressed up like that)
Feminine pad as a mask.
Wedding veil on a man. (not that there is anything wrong with that)
Would love to see beekeeper hood or scuba.
Would like to see but would not advise wearing a bandanna into a bank carrying a bag with $ symbol on the side.
 
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