Least sexist surgical specialties?

[RealFruitSmoothie]

Surgical fields (besides ob-gyn) are male-dominated. Which ones have you found to be the least sexist despite being male-dominated in number?

By sexism I mean:
When female and male medical students are both following the attending (on rounds or in the OR), will he ever make eye contact or direct a verbal response to the female student, or will he spend 99% of the time interacting only with the male student?
Is the female student more likely to be ignored, interrupted, talked over than the male student?
Are the male attendings more likely to actively encourage the male student in terms of giving them research/shadowing opportunities?
Are the male attendings more likely to suggest that the female student look into a more 'lifestyle-friendly' or 'family-friendly' specialty?
Are female attendings more likely to be given the boring/low-level cases the male department chairs don't feel like doing?

Those are some of the things I've seen over the past few months as I've been rotating through surgical subspecialties. Granted I've only mostly had access to my institution, so I'm wondering what you all have seen out there. Are there any surgical specialties where female students encounter less resistance to inclusion?

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[managedcarefin]

These questions aren't going to be answered with answers that you are looking for. The world is not fair, unfortunate but that is the way it is. But what you can do, is to do your part to make it better for women that come after you. But yes there are many boys clubs in all fields... including being a physician.

 

[RealFruitSmoothie]

These questions aren't going to be answered with answers that you are looking for. The world is not fair, unfortunate but that is the way it is. But what you can do, is to do your part to make it better for women that come after you. But yes there are many boys clubs in all fields... including being a physician.

I think you're absolutely right. I do think that some specialties are making efforts at changing the culture/environment, but it makes sense that some might be making more progress than others. Even if it's just the way it is, I still think it's worth talking about. I'm hoping some female students/residents/attendings from other institutions can chime in with their experiences, good or bad.

 

[Dave1980]

When female and male medical students are both following the attending (on rounds or in the OR), will he ever make eye contact or direct a verbal response to the female student, or will he spend 99% of the time interacting only with the male student?
Is the female student more likely to be ignored, interrupted, talked over than the male student?
Are the male attendings more likely to actively encourage the male student in terms of giving them research/shadowing opportunities?
Are the male attendings more likely to suggest that the female student look into a more 'lifestyle-friendly' or 'family-friendly' specialty?
Are female attendings more likely to be given the boring/low-level cases the male department chairs don't feel like doing?

I've never seen anything even remotely approaching the scenarios you are describing. I think you may have inappropriate feelings of being persecuted.

When someone is a jerk to me I think: "That person is being a jerk because they are a jerk".

 

[RealFruitSmoothie]

It's possible I might be growing more sensitive to it after a constant level throughout the year, or it could just be a handful of people at my institution and that's completely unusual. And I might think it was because they are just a jerk if they weren't being perfectly cordial and interacting with the male students at the same time. It might be in my head, though. It could also be that you don't notice it as a male physician (not sure if you're in surgery?). That's part of why I'm hoping for feedback from other females in training.

 

[sella.turcica]

Isn't urology sexist by nature?

 

[Chibucks15]

It's possible I might be growing more sensitive to it after a constant level throughout the year. And I might think it was because they are just a jerk if they weren't being perfectly cordial and interacting with the male students at the same time. It might be in my head, though. It could also be that you don't notice it as a male physician (not sure if you're in surgery?). That's part of why I'm hoping for feedback from other females in training.

If its as bad as you say it is, there isn't a way to not notice it. Unless you're a raging a-hole. The majority of the time, in my experience, these types of things are blown out of proportion or not even truly there. Devils advocate here, but sometimes people may be jerks to certain people and not others because of something he/she did, didn't do, etc. But I'm an average white dude so usually I'm told my opinion is wrong and privileged in todays society. Good luck with your search

 

[RealFruitSmoothie]

I def don't think your opinion is wrong - I'm just looking to gather some female-in-surgery opinions.

Mods - would it be possible to move this post to the Women in Healthcare forum? Didn't know that existed until just now.

 

[raiderette]

I am going ob/gyn, but had great rotations and mentorship opportunities in Optho. It seems to attract crazy smart, but without the ego of surgical stereotype.

 

[nimbus]

It’s absurd to generalize sexism by specialty. There are sexists/racists/specists/ageists/nationalists in every specialty.

 

[RealFruitSmoothie]

It’s absurd to generalize sexism by specialty. There are sexists/racists/specists/ageists/nationalists in every specialty.

Yeah, that would be.

Again, what I'm trying to do is bring out experiences from current/recent female surgical trainees to gather data on levels of equality experienced in different surgical subspecialties at other institutions. Thank you to @raiderette for sharing!

 

[nimbus]

Yeah, that would be.

Again, what I'm trying to do is bring out experiences from current/recent female surgical trainees to gather data on levels of equality experienced in different surgical subspecialties at other institutions. Thank you to @raiderette for sharing!

Again it’s dangerous to generalize. During training, I thought cardiothoracic surgeons were dicks because that’s how they were where I trained. Now I work with incredibly kind, caring, respectful ones.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Moved to Women in Healthcare per the OP's request.

 

[RealFruitSmoothie]

Again it’s dangerous to generalize. During training, I thought cardiothoracic surgeons were dicks because that’s how they were where I trained. Now I work with incredibly kind, caring, respectful ones.

Exactly what I'm hoping - thanks!

 

[nimbus]

If you were my daughter I would say first find a specialty that really calls to you. Then find female mentors in that specialty and do some research to find programs that have a good track record of graduating female residents. Obviously that would be on top of all the other due diligence required when finding a training program. There is actually a sizable community of female academic surgeons on Twitter. That may be a good place to start.

 

[CidHighwind]

Probably Breast, Ob/Gyn, and Peds surgery.

 

[deleted480308]

Find what you like to do and be good at it.

 

[mvenus929]

I mean, Ortho is the only surgical specialty I rotated on where we had an all female OR (attending, chief resident, me, anesthesia, and all the nurses).

I also want to point out that I'm in a pediatric subspecialty and have a couple of sexist attendings in my division. From talking with the female attendings, they aren't as overtly sexist as they used to be, but there is still clearly a difference in the way I'm treated compared to my male co-fellow.

I don’t think you can generalize by specialty so much as institution and culture.

 

[Smurfette]

I'm a general surgeon.

There are sexist individuals everywhere, but they are becoming fewer in number and less overt than in the past. Not all surgeons are sexist, and not all sexists are surgeons. If the OP is at a place where it is rampant, that is a department culture issue, and occurs because the chair and others allow it to happen.

If female students are being ignored, it could be because it is assumed they aren't interested--essentially subconscious bias--rather than a conscious decision to ignore them. That doesn't make it right, but sometimes making it clear you are interested, repeating the question, and trying to actually pursue further conversation can help. I would suggest repeating questions as well--once the other person finishes--if interrupted or talked over, as that can help reinforce that you are trying to be part of the conversation. "Actually, that wasn't my question, although that's good to know. I was wondering about X".

I personally have found that women and non-surgeons are most likely to talk about how surgery is not family friendly and discourage students from pursuing it. I hear that far less from actual surgeons. Just my own anecdotal experience.

As far as giving women lesser cases, I would like to point out that first of all, most people do not work in an academic hospital after finishing training and thus are generally not beholden to their department chair's leadership. Most are beholden to their partners and how their group builds their collective practice. From a personal standpoint, I've never been relegated to low level cases, although often surgeons tend to start off getting undesirable or simple cases while getting established and building a reputation. At my current job, I am the only female and the newest general surgeon to join, but am by far the busiest.

 

[Billyrmd]

Ridiculous to consider in this day and age. Any residual sexism is so minor that if it prevents you from entering the specialty you really like then that is on YOU.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

My mother-in-law is an orthopedic hand surgeon. She has stated she has worked with 3 hand surgeons previously - all females.

So I would say "Dainty little hands" are good for treating "little hands" haha. Just kidding. In all honesty it's a stupid stereotype.... but, honestly, its an amazing subspecialty because not many people pursue it.

She told me at her interview for residency (Back in the late 80s) that she had the interview in a COAT CLOSET. On the wall all around her was female Playboy pornography. They conducted the interview as if none of it existed. Finally at the end pointed to the vagina a foot next to her face and asked "Do you like that?" And she said "Why it's lovely". She got the residency position.

Ortho is a frat-boy's club from everything I've gathered about it... and you'd be expected to work harder than the guys to show you're just as good. That sucks and obviously as a millennial I totally don't agree with it, but at least it makes you an amazing surgeon. You have to be to be accepted.

I would not choose any specialty just because its "less sexist" - I would choose the most sexist and show all of the fragile little boys up.

Good luck.

 

[deleted480308]

My mother-in-law is an orthopedic hand surgeon. She has stated she has worked with 3 hand surgeons previously - all females.

So I would say "Dainty little hands" are good for treating "little hands" haha. Just kidding. In all honesty it's a stupid stereotype.... but, honestly, its an amazing subspecialty because not many people pursue it.

She told me at her interview for residency (Back in the late 80s) that she had the interview in a COAT CLOSET. On the wall all around her was female Playboy pornography. They conducted the interview as if none of it existed. Finally at the end pointed to the vagina a foot next to her face and asked "Do you like that?" And she said "Why it's lovely". She got the residency position.

Ortho is a frat-boy's club from everything I've gathered about it... and you'd be expected to work harder than the guys to show you're just as good. That sucks and obviously as a millennial I totally don't agree with it, but at least it makes you an amazing surgeon. You have to be to be accepted.

I would not choose any specialty just because its "less sexist" - I would choose the most sexist and show all of the fragile little boys up.

Good luck.

it's a little absurd to compare today with a story from 30yrs ago

 

[KeikoTanaka]

it's a little absurd to compare today with a story from 30yrs ago

I'm not comparing it to today? But 30 years also isn't a very long time in the grand scheme of things. Those individuals still have a lasting impact im sure as if theyre still practicing (or the people they chose) are now in positions of power, causing downstream ripple effects on culture of a specific specialty/location.

The point of the story was to illustrate that Ortho is traditionally a male dominated field. But the point of the post was to say not to worry about it and fight the patriarchy.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

“Ortho is a frat-boy's club from everything I've gathered about it... and you'd be expected to work harder than the guys to show you're just as good. That sucks and obviously as a millennial I totally don't agree with it, but at least it makes you an amazing surgeon. You have to be to be accepted.”

The perpetuation of the above stereotype against my specialty is counterproductive, especially since the data overwhelmingly does not indicate any bias against women in the modern orthopaedic admissions process.

 

[giantswing]

“Ortho is a frat-boy's club from everything I've gathered about it... and you'd be expected to work harder than the guys to show you're just as good. That sucks and obviously as a millennial I totally don't agree with it, but at least it makes you an amazing surgeon. You have to be to be accepted.”

The perpetuation of the above stereotype against my specialty is counterproductive, especially since the data overwhelmingly does not indicate any bias against women in the modern orthopaedic admissions process.

Getting in is one thing. Getting through is another.

any woman who wants to do ortho- it’s the best specially ever. Hands down. But find a program w as many women residents and faculty in it as you possibly can. I wish I did.

 

[DeadCactus]

I find this thread interesting. In EM, there is an ongoing discussion at the national level about gender inequality driven by personal anecdotes and some limited data on discrepancies in career progression and pay. Obviously there are a lot of socioeconomic and subconscious factors that go into these discrepancies rather than just overt, conscious sexism. I also think it's also safe to say things are significantly better today than in the past. But is this not a point of discussion in the surgical world?

In regards to the original post, these issues should not dissuade you from the specialty you want to train in. They should come into play when you pick a training program and a place to work.

 

[deleted497653]

There is sexism in medicine, corporate America, everywhere: but that should not stop you from going into your chosen field. I have witnessed some of those things you mentioned and it wasn’t in surgery. On one MICU rotation, the attending would never make eye contact with the female residents. He didn’t treat them bad either but clearly didn’t want to get too close to them. I think a male attending may not want to show too much attention to the female students in the “me too” era. Also cultural reasons may be a factor, some of our doctors were not raised in a society where male and women are equal. Also other forms of discrimination like race may be a factor. So at some level, human behavior varies based on a lot of factors. Not always right, but you can only control you.

 

[kitsunepixie]

I'm a female neurosurgeon. I'm treated a bit like a unicorn, but the percentage of female neurosurgeon residents is climbing every year. I can't think of an instance of sexism since I became an attending and started my current job.

Did I experience sexism during med school and residency, having started residency over 10 years ago? Occasionally, but it was the exception. Overall, neurosurgeons were very enthusiastic about having more women in their specialty, to the point that when I was on the trail, one program was almost annoyingly aggressive about it: "this will be the year we have our first female resident for sure!" (It wasn't. This program had also been taking potential candidates to strip clubs) I also had a chairman at another program ask me, "Why become a neurosurgeon when you can marry one?" I think the question was to test my reaction rather than reflecting his personal beliefs (or maybe I'm being generous). Having worked in Japan, I had become accustomed to old men and encountered much worse (and perverted) questions.

Will patients be sexist? Yes, occasionally. I had one that I actually don't think was sexist, but my attending did and kicked the patient out of our clinic. The patient was in his 80s and had been referred for a spine issue and was in the VA system. He didn't want to see a neurosurgeon; he wanted to see the private Orthopedic surgeon who did his previous spinal surgery and was annoyed that the VA was making him see a VA neurosurgeon first. I had other VA patients who expressed that they were happy that their surgeon was a woman because "you have small hands and can get in there better." I think racism is far more commonly encountered after discussing with colleagues.

Interestingly, as a student when a female Neurology attending asked the group if any of us "actually wants to do neurosurgery," she said "oh how wonderful, you will be a neurosurgery nun" when I raised my hand.

 

[MediCane2006]

Interestingly, as a student when a female Neurology attending asked the group if any of us "actually wants to do neurosurgery," she said "oh how wonderful, you will be a neurosurgery nun" when I raised my hand.

Haters gonna hate....

 

[habibimarwan]

Where I am from before, not many women in any medicine or surgery. Many men in all fields. Do men stop women becoming doctor? No. But culture and religion says there better things to do than spend most of young life with no children. Women in my culture raise many children. Many respect to women who raise big family. No sexism. Women are happy where I am from, many women not happy in America because overworking outside family, or no family.

I meet many women doctors in America now, medicine and surgery. They don't say "sexist", but say "too much work" and "too much time away from family". Be happy and choose your preference specialty! Good luck!

 

[Amazonianunite]

It's kind of messed up some of the responses on this and how you aren't being taking seriously.
Yes not everyone is sexist but it does exist. I'm not a surgeon so I can't say for sure. But in my experience on clinicals it's location based. Meaning the location of the hospital and the culture within the hospital itself. Meaning is it socially acceptable to make insensitive comments about how women are over reacting. Sexism I found can also come from women. I've heard some women say some pretty ****ty stuff about other women. Which is the most disappointing. It's not speciality it's more of how sensitive a hospital is to it's staff and thier needs.. see how thier residents are treated in general might be a good place to start.

 

[watchfulwaiting1957]

Surgical fields (besides ob-gyn) are male-dominated. Which ones have you found to be the least sexist despite being male-dominated in number?

By sexism I mean:
When female and male medical students are both following the attending (on rounds or in the OR), will he ever make eye contact or direct a verbal response to the female student, or will he spend 99% of the time interacting only with the male student?
Is the female student more likely to be ignored, interrupted, talked over than the male student?
Are the male attendings more likely to actively encourage the male student in terms of giving them research/shadowing opportunities?
Are the male attendings more likely to suggest that the female student look into a more 'lifestyle-friendly' or 'family-friendly' specialty?
Are female attendings more likely to be given the boring/low-level cases the male department chairs don't feel like doing?

Those are some of the things I've seen over the past few months as I've been rotating through surgical subspecialties. Granted I've only mostly had access to my institution, so I'm wondering what you all have seen out there. Are there any surgical specialties where female students encounter less resistance to inclusion?

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe sexism is that common at this level of professionalism. I think you would be fine today, in the United States, in any field if you are strong in knowledge. I am requesting that the mods lock this thread before any sort of argument is started between genders.

 

[Smurfette]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe sexism is that common at this level of professionalism. I think you would be fine today, in the United States, in any field if you are strong in knowledge. I am requesting that the mods lock this thread before any sort of argument is started between genders.

Given that you bumped a thread that was inactive for 10 months and was started in 2019, locking the thread now seems a bit aggressive.

 

[deleted1065262]

I’m a female orthopaedic surgeon. There’s a lot of talk about how my specialty is sexist. That is BS propaganda unsupported by data (blinded studies of applicants by gender show absolutely zero bias).

My advice to you is the advice I give to every female who asks me these types of questions: “if you were the first woman in the specialty, would you still love it enough to do it? And if yes, why does your original question matter?”

My advice is to do what you like and stop filling your head with inflammatory divisive crap the modern world feeds you. If someone tells you you’re a victim enough, you will change your outlook to view any negative event as a result of being victimized. In the vast majority of cases, it’s untrue. People who want you to be a victim are invested in making you think that way— they are just another special interest group who feed off your perception of victimhood. Assess the person and scenario with your own brain, and see if your opinion of them is justified. They could be a sexist pig. But generally, you’ll find that they’re just a regular run of the mill jerk— or even more likely, a normal human who is having a bad day, going through a divorce or illness or a legal issue, and their actions have zero to do with you.

As a personal anecdote, I have seen the most atrocious behavior from other females, in all specialties. If I told you some of the things I’ve seen in my career (some of which I can never say until maybe I am retired for fear of retribution), your hair would turn white— the things that men do to undermine each other pale in comparison to what women are capable of. But generally, bad people are bad people and they come in all forms.

I know this is an older post but I cannot agree more!!

You cannot live your life thinking you are a victim all the time. It generally it some special interest group telling you that and they have an agenda.

Personally I would go for the specialty I find most interesting.

I am thinking surgery may be interesting (psychiatry is what I am thinking right now but my mind may change, who knows).