Job offer good or bad?

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heysexylady

heysexylady

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Rural Indiana. Middle of nowhere.
Salary 280
Covering inpt (geri and adult ) and consults in the am.
Outpt in the evening
50 grand sign on for two year contract. 25 grand sign in and the rest given as stipend. Given as loan but if don't stay the full two years need to pay back plus interest. If stay you don't meet to pay interest nor do you owe hospital.
38 days pto this includes holidays, vacation and sick days.
Calls: weekday q5 days and weekends every 6th weekend.
Cme is 4000
They say that my cme the first year can't be used towards medical license or board exam.
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heysexylady said:
Rural Indiana. Middle of nowhere.
Salary 280
Covering inpt (geri and adult ) and consults in the am.
Outpt in the evening
50 grand sign on for two year contract. 25 grand sign in and the rest given as stipend. Given as loan but if don't stay the full two years need to pay back plus interest. If stay you don't meet to pay interest nor do you owe hospital.
38 days pto this includes holidays, vacation and sick days.
Calls: weekday q5 days and weekends every 6th weekend.
Cme is 4000
They say that my cme the first year can't be used towards medical license or board exam.
Click to expand...

Unless I’m missing something, this sounds horrible. Looks like your working 2 maybe 3 jobs and getting paid for 1.
 
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The "loan" thing sounds awful. That is a terrible first impression. I can understand they want the sign on bonus back if you don't stay, but charging interest on it is ridiculous. Perhaps you could ask for 25k with payback if you don't stay 2 years, no interest, no "loan." You don't want to be under their thumb with a loan! This loan nonsense screams "screw the doctor, she is just another employee who costs too much" to me. Either they offer a sign on, or not. Rural job offers like this are as common as cranberries on Thanksgiving day.

Also, if they want you bad enough they need to pay for licensure and DEA. That is pennies compared to everything else. The CME stipend is nice, but with no protected time off for it, you'll never get to use it. If you get the flu half your paid time off will disappear! Vacation time should be separate from sick leave time. I bet they have a non-compete clause, too, don't they? Any help with relocation? Any student loan forgiveness/pay off? How many patients per day? How long per patient? How many consults? How busy is this call? Do you have staff support? Do they expect you to supervise mid levels? Rural often means no staff support or social resources for patients. Any reason you are interested in rural Indiana? I bet they want you to get an X waiver for Suboxone on your own dime, too, for their Opioid epidemic population. Spell out if you'll do this or not in writing.

This looks like too much work for too little money or time off for me at first glance. Serious negotiation would have to occur with the results in writing before I work this job. I wouldn't get locked in for more than a year with this one unless I was totally satisfied. Will they take you on as a locum/probationary or 1099 employee, so you can bail when they abuse you? If so, it might be worth a shot. This "loan" thing makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You don't want to owe this organization anything.
 
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wolfvgang22 said:
The "loan" thing sounds awful. That is a terrible first impression. I can understand they want the sign on bonus back if you don't stay, but charging interest on it is ridiculous. Perhaps you could ask for 25k with payback if you don't stay 2 years, no interest, no "loan." You don't want to be under their thumb with a loan! This loan nonsense screams "screw the doctor, she is just another employee who costs too much" to me. Either they offer a sign on, or not. Rural job offers like this are as common as cranberries on Thanksgiving day.

Also, if they want you bad enough they need to pay for licensure and DEA. That is pennies compared to everything else. The CME stipend is nice, but with no protected time off for it, you'll never get to use it. If you get the flu half your paid time off will disappear! Vacation time should be separate from sick leave time. I bet they have a non-compete clause, too, don't they? Any help with relocation? Any student loan forgiveness/pay off? How many patients per day? How long per patient? How many consults? How busy is this call? Do you have staff support? Do they expect you to supervise mid levels? Rural often means no staff support or social resources for patients. Any reason you are interested in rural Indiana? I bet they want you to get an X waiver for Suboxone on your own dime, too, for their Opioid epidemic population. Spell out if you'll do this or not in writing.

This looks like too much work for too little money or time off for me at first glance. Serious negotiation would have to occur with the results in writing before I work this job. I wouldn't get locked in for more than a year with this one unless I was totally satisfied. Will they take you on as a locum/probationary or 1099 employee, so you can bail when they abuse you? If so, it might be worth a shot. This "loan" thing makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You don't want to owe this organization anything.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at this area because I know they would pay me more. I discussed with them about removing the loan thing fun the bonus.

I also requested that they should reimburse me for my licenses and board exams. I also asked for 60 days vacation time... Pulled that number out of my ass. I also asked them for a higher salary to compensate due me doing call and covering 3 services. I asked them to clarify the patient load and time spent with each patient.

It's a small hospital. I will have a sw, psychologist, nurses and techs. No mention about suboxone. They have a rvu structure included with the guarantee salary.
 
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BTW--that "loan" forgiveness WILL be counted as taxable income in the year it is forgiven. You may see it on your pay statements as imputed income, and you will see your withholding increased accordingly. So expect another hit to your cash flow...
 
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heysexylady said:
Rural Indiana. Middle of nowhere.
Salary 280
Covering inpt (geri and adult ) and consults in the am.
Outpt in the evening
50 grand sign on for two year contract. 25 grand sign in and the rest given as stipend. Given as loan but if don't stay the full two years need to pay back plus interest. If stay you don't meet to pay interest nor do you owe hospital.
38 days pto this includes holidays, vacation and sick days.
Calls: weekday q5 days and weekends every 6th weekend.
Cme is 4000
They say that my cme the first year can't be used towards medical license or board exam.
Click to expand...

Sounds very bad! It literally sounds like 2 jobs, which if you really wanted to do, should pay a lot more. This would be a good offer if you were just doing the inpatient.
 
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I would insist on RVU compensation at least $65 (start by asking for $75) per RVU that way you’ll at least get paid for all the work you’re doing.
 
If they're telling you that if you leave within 2 years, you have to pay back the loan forgiveness plus interest, that should SCREAM red flag. There wouldn't be an interest penalty unless they were pretty certain no one would stick around for 2 years. Easy pass from me.
 
Mass Effect said:
If they're telling you that if you leave within 2 years, you have to pay back the loan forgiveness plus interest, that should SCREAM red flag. There wouldn't be an interest penalty unless they were pretty certain no one would stick around for 2 years. Easy pass from me.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't take that as a red flag--that type of 2-year retention requirement is fairly standard.
 
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I don’t know that a forgivable loan is a strong indicator of malignancy. It could be a sign of a large bureaucracy, which mine is, if there’s a parent institution. My job is not malignant at all.
 
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nexus73 said:
I would insist on RVU compensation at least $65 (start by asking for $75) per RVU that way you’ll at least get paid for all the work you’re doing.
Click to expand...
They offered $31 dollars . They claimed it was the median. I'm going to ask for $75/rvu.
 
31 dollars per RVU is very low.
A job offered me 54 dollars per RVU which is low too.
 
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Therapist4Chnge said:
Don't accept that line because it assumes adequate supply. You are being significantly low-balled for the work being requested.
Click to expand...

Just went through an interview where the doctor, IM, was head of the clinic and wanted psych to help with nursing home work. He "knew" what the going rate was for psychiatry when challenged but wouldn't share that information because it was "private". Be aware of narcissistic medical directors.

Another thing folks, outside of residency, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you.
 
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The demand right now is enough that you shouldn't accept anything less than 300 starting with 350-375k within 3-4 years. In the current climate, they don't dictate terms as much -- you are in the drivers seat.
 
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jettavr6 said:
The demand right now is enough that you shouldn't accept anything less than 300 starting with 350-375k within 3-4 years. In the current climate, they don't dictate terms as much -- you are in the drivers seat.
Click to expand...

Psych is about to get a hell of a lot more competitive loll
 
jettavr6 said:
The demand right now is enough that you shouldn't accept anything less than 300 starting with 350-375k within 3-4 years. In the current climate, they don't dictate terms as much -- you are in the drivers seat.
Click to expand...

Sure, except many many jobs aren't paying that and are finding good candidates for less than that. The climate varies regionally and 300k is not the market rate in the northeast or midatlantic.
 
SmallBird said:
Sure, except many many jobs aren't paying that and are finding good candidates for less than that. The climate varies regionally and 300k is not the market rate in the northeast or midatlantic.
Click to expand...

Physicians in general don't negotiate enough. We aren't taught those skills in medical school or residency - Just imagine if we were.
 
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Where can I find the MGMA statistics for psychiatry salaries?
 
wolfvgang22 said:
The "loan" thing sounds awful. That is a terrible first impression. I can understand they want the sign on bonus back if you don't stay, but charging interest on it is ridiculous. Perhaps you could ask for 25k with payback if you don't stay 2 years, no interest, no "loan." You don't want to be under their thumb with a loan! This loan nonsense screams "screw the doctor, she is just another employee who costs too much" to me. Either they offer a sign on, or not. Rural job offers like this are as common as cranberries on Thanksgiving day.

Also, if they want you bad enough they need to pay for licensure and DEA. That is pennies compared to everything else. The CME stipend is nice, but with no protected time off for it, you'll never get to use it. If you get the flu half your paid time off will disappear! Vacation time should be separate from sick leave time. I bet they have a non-compete clause, too, don't they? Any help with relocation? Any student loan forgiveness/pay off? How many patients per day? How long per patient? How many consults? How busy is this call? Do you have staff support? Do they expect you to supervise mid levels? Rural often means no staff support or social resources for patients. Any reason you are interested in rural Indiana? I bet they want you to get an X waiver for Suboxone on your own dime, too, for their Opioid epidemic population. Spell out if you'll do this or not in writing.

This looks like too much work for too little money or time off for me at first glance. Serious negotiation would have to occur with the results in writing before I work this job. I wouldn't get locked in for more than a year with this one unless I was totally satisfied. Will they take you on as a locum/probationary or 1099 employee, so you can bail when they abuse you? If so, it might be worth a shot. This "loan" thing makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. You don't want to owe this organization anything.
Click to expand...
Do you think this job is worth 330
 
jettavr6 said:
Physicians in general don't negotiate enough. We aren't taught those skills in medical school or residency - Just imagine if we were.
Click to expand...

There is a reason why physicians aren't taught this -- gives more power to controlling entities like hospitals.
 
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heysexylady said:
Do you think this job is worth 330
Click to expand...

Midwest. Middle of nowhere. Q5 call and weekend calls. Covering multiple services. Working until evening. There is nothing good about this job. They'll have a hard time getting physicians so don't base the job on what you generate. Base it on need, especially if you'll be the only psychiatrist in the area.

I wouldn't take it for at least 600k (ask for more to arrive at this amount). In the meantime, I would interview somewhere else too. Best way to negotiate is to have another offer. So interview broadly. Be willing to walk.

Spend money to teach yourself how to negotiate. It will pay for the rest of your life.
 
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AD04 said:
Midwest. Middle of nowhere. Q5 call and weekend calls. Covering multiple services. Working until evening. There is nothing good about this job. They'll have a hard time getting physicians so don't base the job on what you generate. Base it on need, especially if you'll be the only psychiatrist in the area.

I wouldn't take it for at least 600k (ask for more to arrive at this amount). In the meantime, I would interview somewhere else too. Best way to negotiate is to have another offer. So interview broadly. Be willing to walk.

Spend money to teach yourself how to negotiate. It will pay for the rest of your life.
Click to expand...


Update: they refused to negotiate on anything, they felt that it was a fair contract. The recruiter was like that I made too many requests upfront and I should have focused on one or two things because they weren't happy and surprised that I would make so many requests. The recruiter said that the contract was standard for all physicians I'm here hospital. She was like I am free to sign the contract as is because they still need a psychiatrist.

I'm passing.
 
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^^ this is why a decent number of this type of jobs are not filling for months to years, and rural residents don't get psychiatric care and suicide or OD. #no1cares.
 
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Look at it this way: you are carrying two services on your back at the same time. At any given time, one or the other is going to have a challenging patient or situation that will take up a lot of time and you will be super busy. If you have challenging situations on both services at the same time, you'll have a stressful day like being on call.

From my experience looking for jobs on the Great Plains, there are a lot of crappy job offers to be had, and not always maliciously, often they don't have any idea of what a competitive offer looks like, and the guys who run this (always old white guys in my experience) are not used to negotiating with younger doctors and back out quickly when you try to make changes.

Unless you've got a reason to be looking in this part of rural Indiana, keep on looking, you are seriously better off doing locums and looking for a better perch than signing on for a job that you are 95% likely to hate. You know why they have that loan arrangement on the bonus? Because they know once you start work, you are going to hate your life and want to leave, and this way they've got you locked in for 2 years.

Just my 2 cents, but based on experience.
 
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heysexylady said:
Update: they refused to negotiate on anything, they felt that it was a fair contract. The recruiter was like that I made too many requests upfront and I should have focused on one or two things because they weren't happy and surprised that I would make so many requests. The recruiter said that the contract was standard for all physicians I'm here hospital. She was like I am free to sign the contract as is because they still need a psychiatrist.

I'm passing.
Click to expand...

Good on you. That was a terrible offer.
 
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The recruiter is right. nobody likes someone who has too many requests to change things. if a job is advertised this poorly you have no hope in hell of negotiating it into a reasonable offer. run.
 
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heysexylady said:
What really pissed me off the most is that they won't even consider negotiating.... I was just so insulted.
Click to expand...

Do you need visa? Do you need to be in a undeserved area?
Otherwise, I don't understand why you considered this offer.
There are many other bad offers like that all over the country.
 
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Ahamis said:
Do you need visa? Do you need to be in a undeserved area?
Otherwise, I don't understand why you considered this offer.
There are many other bad offers like that all over the country.
Click to expand...


I have a lot of student loans and so I'm looking at least desirable areas with hopes to negotiate a lot of money to pay off debt. I assumed they will pay a lot. I'm a US citizen. I don't have a strong desire to be on the coast or major cities because I know that they will be saturated with psychiatrist and pay well be substantial lower than it would be for the Midwest.
 
splik said:
did you interview for this position? did they formally offer you this position?
Click to expand...
I interviewed with them and they offered me the position. Based on the contract they provided, I contacted the hospital recruiter and told them the parts that I would like to negotiate on.

1. Base salary
2. Rvu
3. pto
4. Restrictive covenants.

The rest I didn't care about. She told me that she spoke to other recruiters in the area and they had told her that the contract was standard. She also said the administration was not willing to negotiate on anything which surprised me.
 
heysexylady said:
I don't have a strong desire to be on the coast or major cities because I know that they will be saturated with psychiatrist and pay well be substantial lower than it would be for the Midwest.
Click to expand...

Not true. You can easily get better jobs in California than the job you just posted. Even keeping in mind higher taxes. Kaiser offers $300k+, a sign on bonus, and marginal amounts of call. The California prison system also offers high pay.

The highest pay and lowest cost of living is in the inland parts of California, like Bakersfield.
 
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