Jehovah Witness w/ Hgb/Hct of 5.1/12.3?

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McSnappy

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Retired, Jehov. Wit (no blood product at all) w/ TBSA flame of 20% s/p x 2 autograft (split them up to decr blood loss). Been on ProCrit qwk x 3doses + FeSO4 325qd, 1st autograft oK, not great (no O2 to tissue, probably), H&H has steadily dropped from ~9/23 since 1st debride and allograft - Sat 95% 5Lnc, diabetic

anyone think hyperbaric might help?
Any other therapy we should think about?

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Retired, Jehov. Wit (no blood product at all) w/ TBSA flame of 20% s/p x 2 autograft (split them up to decr blood loss). Been on ProCrit qwk x 3doses + FeSO4 325qd, 1st autograft oK, not great (no O2 to tissue, probably), H&H has steadily dropped from ~9/23 since 1st debride and allograft - Sat 95% 5Lnc, diabetic

anyone think hyperbaric might help?
Any other therapy we should think about?

Reminds me of a similar patient I had... his Hgb got down below 3 before he was critical....

So if he's been dropping since Sept, maybe there is still some reserve.
 
sorry for confusion...no reserve is showing up
 
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With that disclaimer in the title...

One thing that tends to be overlooked with people that are anemic is trying to dissolve more O2 into the plasma (even without hyperbaric). Remember your O2 content equation: CaO2=(Hgb x 1.36) x SaO2 + (PaO2 x 0.0031). I know that it doesn't seem like you would really be able to get much O2 into the plasma, but let's take a look.

So, in your case of a Hgb of 5.1 and a sat of 95% on 5lpm:

CaO2 = (5.1 x 1.36) x .95 + (80 x 0.0031) - I just took a guess at your PaO2.
CaO2 = 6.8 mL/dL

Now, let's increase the FiO2 to 100% (Assuming a PF ratio of ~ 200 off of spO2 of 95 on 5 lpm nc):

CaO2 = (5.1 x 1.36) x .99 + (200 x 0.0031)
CaO2 = 7.5 mL/dL


Now imagine how you could do with some increase in mean airway pressure and 100% FiO2 (CPAP on 100%?). Of course, you would have to think about the problems of oxygen toxicity and see if your risks outweighed your rewards.

I suppose that point is moot, however, if you are unable to determine the source of a dropping Hgb. GI bleed? Are they getting aggressive fluid resuscitation and hemodilution (probably a stupid question, and one you would have already addressed - just thinking of anything).

To answer your hyperbaric question... I don't think that it couldn't hurt (think of all the O2 you would get in your plasma then!). You could always order a transcutaneous O2 study be done (not sure if they would be able to do it on the graft or not). That would give you an idea of how the affected site is doing on oxygenation... then you could try a few dives and recheck the TcO2 (or check it in the HBO chamber during a dive). Where were the grafts?

I hope that this helps. Like I said, I'm not a physician, but only a respiratory therapist... just like learning opportunities.

Good luck!
 
With that disclaimer in the title...

One thing that tends to be overlooked with people that are anemic is trying to dissolve more O2 into the plasma (even without hyperbaric). Remember your O2 content equation: CaO2=(Hgb x 1.36) x SaO2 + (PaO2 x 0.0031). I know that it doesn't seem like you would really be able to get much O2 into the plasma, but let's take a look.

So, in your case of a Hgb of 5.1 and a sat of 95% on 5lpm:

CaO2 = (5.1 x 1.36) x .95 + (80 x 0.0031) - I just took a guess at your PaO2.
CaO2 = 6.8 mL/dL

Now, let's increase the FiO2 to 100% (Assuming a PF ratio of ~ 200 off of spO2 of 95 on 5 lpm nc):

CaO2 = (5.1 x 1.36) x .99 + (200 x 0.0031)
CaO2 = 7.5 mL/dL


Now imagine how you could do with some increase in mean airway pressure and 100% FiO2 (CPAP on 100%?). Of course, you would have to think about the problems of oxygen toxicity and see if your risks outweighed your rewards.

I suppose that point is moot, however, if you are unable to determine the source of a dropping Hgb. GI bleed? Are they getting aggressive fluid resuscitation and hemodilution (probably a stupid question, and one you would have already addressed - just thinking of anything).

To answer your hyperbaric question... I don't think that it couldn't hurt (think of all the O2 you would get in your plasma then!). You could always order a transcutaneous O2 study be done (not sure if they would be able to do it on the graft or not). That would give you an idea of how the affected site is doing on oxygenation... then you could try a few dives and recheck the TcO2 (or check it in the HBO chamber during a dive). Where were the grafts?

I hope that this helps. Like I said, I'm not a physician, but only a respiratory therapist... just like learning opportunities.

Good luck!

Strong work... You look like a Pulm CC doc in the making! Keep up the learing and from what you know so far, you'll kick some tail in Med School ~ no worries) Just get in!:laugh: Ps, I'm no physician either.:laugh:
I'll run it by the team. We're considering hyperbaric if the grafts don't start shaping up (they're ave lookin') Problem is you need around 20 treatments to make it work well and we were hoping to kick his tail out of a bed before those could be completed (hyperbaric = 1/day x 5d/wk = 1 month stay @ hotel hospital = even bigger bill for a non-insured Pt)...but, if things don't start lookin better, it may well be the next step, unless someone comes up with another plan.

Thanks for the input. Good luck
 
Just curious if the use of Polyheme ever got considered?
 
Just curious if the use of Polyheme ever got considered?

We hadn't considered it, but I'll bring that up:thumbup:. I know it is made from discarded human blood and then Hgb is extracted and purified...so, I don't know if it will fly. I'll keep you informed.
 
OK, couple of thoughts:

1st. why are you using Procrit only qweek? In acute settings, you can be on virtually daily doses. Also, 325 daily of FeSO4 is probably too low. Check your iron stores. Often people on "bloodless surgery" protocols get iv iron to replenish stores (watch out for anaphylaxis when giving though) and daily or q2day EPO.

Check your retic. counts, your Folate levels, etc. Make sure that you are actually making blood and not preventing blood production by forgetting key nutrients.

There is also a phenomenon of anti-EPO antibodies. No easy test for that. I think there is a lab somewhere that can check it but it takes a lot of blood to check it. Unfortunately if you get those, they often cross react with endogenous EPO and then you are screwed. A Bone Marrow Biopsy can be instructive, but there isn't much you can do to change things if it isn't working. You can also check EPO levels in the blood to ensure that you are supraphysiologic.

Hyperbaric might help on the margins, but you are going to be in trouble long term anyway if you can't get his Hct much higher since you are going to have more operative losses next time you go back.

Reduce iatrogenic losses: Only draw blood when ABSOLUTELY necessary and use pedi tubes. If the open areas/grafts aren't grossly infected consider switching to a something like Acticoat which only needs changing q 3days instead of daily dressings.

If you need to get over a short term hump, there is a bovine hemoglobin product called Hemopure. I've never used it. NOT FDA approved, but I have heard them release it for compassionate use. It was previously in trials, but the trial was ended pre-maturely I believe due to excess deaths although I can't recall the specifics. Anyway, because it is bovine, it is acceptable for use in Jehovah's Witnesses and to my understanding has been approved by the relevant religious authorities as being ok from that sense (the restriction is on human products). Downside: 1/2 life is <2 days so it will all wash out in <10 days. Thus it just buys you time (e.g. if you are going to operate again, and the bone marrow just needs time to catch up)
 
OK, couple of thoughts:

1st. why are you using Procrit only qweek? In acute settings, you can be on virtually daily doses. Also, 325 daily of FeSO4 is probably too low. Check your iron stores. Often people on "bloodless surgery" protocols get iv iron to replenish stores (watch out for anaphylaxis when giving though) and daily or q2day EPO.

Check your retic. counts, your Folate levels, etc. Make sure that you are actually making blood and not preventing blood production by forgetting key nutrients.

There is also a phenomenon of anti-EPO antibodies. No easy test for that. I think there is a lab somewhere that can check it but it takes a lot of blood to check it. Unfortunately if you get those, they often cross react with endogenous EPO and then you are screwed. A Bone Marrow Biopsy can be instructive, but there isn't much you can do to change things if it isn't working. You can also check EPO levels in the blood to ensure that you are supraphysiologic.

Hyperbaric might help on the margins, but you are going to be in trouble long term anyway if you can't get his Hct much higher since you are going to have more operative losses next time you go back.

Reduce iatrogenic losses: Only draw blood when ABSOLUTELY necessary and use pedi tubes. If the open areas/grafts aren't grossly infected consider switching to a something like Acticoat which only needs changing q 3days instead of daily dressings.

If you need to get over a short term hump, there is a bovine hemoglobin product called Hemopure. I've never used it. NOT FDA approved, but I have heard them release it for compassionate use. It was previously in trials, but the trial was ended pre-maturely I believe due to excess deaths although I can't recall the specifics. Anyway, because it is bovine, it is acceptable for use in Jehovah's Witnesses and to my understanding has been approved by the relevant religious authorities as being ok from that sense (the restriction is on human products). Downside: 1/2 life is <2 days so it will all wash out in <10 days. Thus it just buys you time (e.g. if you are going to operate again, and the bone marrow just needs time to catch up)

Thanks, Great suggestions!
Most of those are in place or checked on. I think Mayo does the special tests for us.
Hemopure..hmmmm. Maybe if he drops to the 4's we'll make a call, but will mention that one too.
Pt just seems really resistant (physiologically) to hormones and 'roids. Insulin, EPO, Anabolics.
Thanks again! I appreciate the input. This has been a good learning case for me.
 
Interesting thread. A couple points:

1) not all JWs are created equally. Many will take albumin, cryo, cellsaver, novo7, and even red cells. Some will not take anything. The church's official position is that the decision is up to the individual. There was a special issue of Anesthesia and Analgesia addressing this issue and might be worth a read:

it's proprietary, so I can't put up the link, but your library may have an e-subscription. It's the April, 2007 issue, and below, I will try to cut and paste the editorial from the JW committee on blood reform.

2) We get a lot of JW pt's at my hospital and I always make sure to ask them about blood products when no one else is around. For many of them, the fear of death outweighs their religious convictions, but not if it means being looked down on by their peers. That is, they might accept blood if it remains confidential.


here's the editorial

Coagulopathy After Cardiopulmonary
Bypass in Jehovah’s Witness Patients:
Management of and for the Individual
Rather than the Religious Institution

Lee Elder

Jehovah’s Witnesses read with interest the case study by Sniecinski et al.
(1) concerning advances in treating patients who refuse certain products
made from blood. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses fit this profile. Accordingly,
we are grateful to medical science for advances facilitating safe perioperative
care for patients with this preference.
Sniecinski et al. (1) report the cases of two Jehovah’s Witness patients,
both of whom accepted transfusions from the donated and stored blood
supply. This transfusion of products made from donor blood naturally
leads one to question claims, made by some Jehovah’s Witnesses, of
abstaining from donor blood. This difficulty is amplified when reading
power of attorney documents published by the Watchtower stating that
Jehovah’s Witnesses have the option of accepting literally everything from
a given unit of donated blood so long as it is sufficiently fractionated
beforehand. Understandably, health care providers are left wondering
how a person can lay claim to abstaining from blood as an underlying tenet
of faith and yet at the same time declare a preference to accept literally
anything and everything from donated blood so long as it has been
sufficiently fractionated. An added distraction for physicians trying to
understand the Jehovah’s Witness patient is the Watchtower organization’s
marketing of itself as representing Jehovah’s Witnesses when it
comes to medical use of blood.
In the report by Sniecinski et al. (1) it is important to point out the
distinction between treating Jehovah’s Witnesses as individuals rather
than as part of a population within a religious institution that has strict
proclamations on treatment options. In their presentation, Sniecinski et al.
(1) treat official Watchtower teaching as though it represents the conviction
of all individuals within the Jehovah’s Witness population. In fact, the
Watchtower organization no more represents the entire population of
Jehovah’s Witnesses in respect to blood than the Roman Catholic Church
represents the entire population of Roman Catholics in relation to birth
control techniques. A difference between these two religious institutions is
that one interjects itself as representing an entire population with respect
to a specific teaching while the other makes no claim that its position
reflects the convictions of its members. Despite Watchtower’s religious
teaching, physicians experience many Jehovah’s Witness patients willing
to conscientiously accept transfusion of any donated blood product
(including whole blood, red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma) so long
as the choice is kept confidential. This is based on a conscientious
conviction that the choice is consistent with biblical imperatives. Furthermore,
these individuals desire autonomy rather than having the Watchtower
organization deciding for them what they can and cannot accept
medically as a matter of conscience.
A little advertised fact is that the entire population of Jehovah’s Witnesses
has never universally assented to the Watchtower organization’s religious
position on blood transfusion. From the teaching’s inception until today,
individual Jehovah’s Witnesses have lobbied the
Watchtower to allow all uses of donor blood for
medical purposes. Again, the point here is that the
doctrine issued by the Watchtower organization is
representative of its own hierarchy, and not of the
entire population of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Members of Associated Jehovah’s Witnesses for
Reform on Blood applaud efforts such as those depicted
by Sniecinski et al. (1) to advance medical
practices in an effort to improve medical therapies and
outcomes for patients with peculiar religious convictions.
However, we also remind medical doctors to
treat Jehovah’s Witnesses patients as each individual
prefers rather than as a religious organization prefers
them to be treated. In this respect clinicians should
take the necessary measures to ensure that choices are
autonomous personal decisions rather than transposing
organizational religious ideology as though it represents
individual conviction. At a minimum, treating physicians
should arrange for a private meeting with patients
so they have an opportunity to speak for themselves, free
from religious pressure and in the absence of family
members who are also Jehovah’s Witnesses. Again,
doctors are looking to confirm an individual’s preference
regarding blood product transfusion and not the preference
of family members or a religious organization.
Clinicians should likewise avoid pressuring the patient
to act contrary to his or her own convictions.
REFERENCE
1. Sniecinski RM, Chen EP, Levy JH, et al. Coagulopathy after
cardiopulmonary bypass in Jehovah’s Witness patients: management
of two cases using fractionated components and factor VIIa.
Anesth Analg. 2007;104:763–5.
758

From the Associated Jehovah’s Witnesses
for Reform on Blood, Boise, Idaho.
Accepted for publication November 9,
2006.
Address correspondence and reprint requests
to Lee Elder, Associated Jehovah’s
Witnesses for Reform on Blood, Boise, ID.
Address e-mail to [email protected].
Copyright © 2007 International Anesthesia
Research Society
DOI: 10.1213/01.ane.0000255256.22554.e9
Vol. 104, No. 4, April 2007 757
Editorial
 
Some JWs will accept blood from a relative. Its a real pain in the *** to procure though, you have to go thru the Red Cross and designate it to your hospital's blood bank.
 
Some JWs will accept blood from a relative. Its a real pain in the *** to procure though, you have to go thru the Red Cross and designate it to your hospital's blood bank.

The has denied any and all products from any human blood, including their own. The Pt said, once blood leaves the body, it can no longer be used.
Then quotes Genesis 9:3; Leviticus 17:10 and Acts 15:29 as the source.

The Pts kids don't have the same convictions and have even tried to sway the pt..to no avail.

sooo...we keep movin' on. Pts Hgb was 5.1 again this morning, so at least we may have hit a plateau :luck:. The Crit is still crap though. 12.5
 
Thanks for the kind words, McSnappy. I know that I don't know very much yet, but the medical field just interests me a whole lot.

Good replies... cchoukal, I really enjoyed that editorial that you added in there, thank you!

As far as the HBO, you don't have to keep him inpt. They can do HBO on an outpatient basis.

Would like further updates as they unfold!

Thanks, and good luck.
 
A few questions come to mind.

Why do you keep checking the patients blood count? What are you really going to do with the information. If the hgb drops to 4 do you think he'll change his mind? I think every time you draw blood you should think about how this is going to change management. If not, don't draw it. If you do it should be in pediatric tubes.

The other thing is are you aware that procrit contains albumin. Some JWs will take this some will not. I always clarify it with them. I think there is an albumin free procrit but it's more difficult to get.
 
The other thing is are you aware that procrit contains albumin. Some JWs will take this some will not. I always clarify it with them. I think there is an albumin free procrit but it's more difficult to get.

Never heard that before, but it's right there in the first paragraph of the prescribing info. thanks for pointing this out.
 
I think I was wrong about the albumin free procrit; it's actually aranesp that makes an albumin free product; not sure about procrit.
 
A few questions come to mind.

Why do you keep checking the patients blood count? What are you really going to do with the information. If the hgb drops to 4 do you think he'll change his mind? I think every time you draw blood you should think about how this is going to change management. If not, don't draw it. If you do it should be in pediatric tubes.



The other thing is are you aware that procrit contains albumin. Some JWs will take this some will not. I always clarify it with them. I think there is an albumin free procrit but it's more difficult to get.

We are on the same track here...blood draws MWF w/Pedi tubes....and to add to the plot, Pt developed a string of DVTs in the basilic, axillary and SubClav where a Pic line was
Didn't know it, hadn't told pt... There's a conversation w/ attending for the AM:confused::idea:

Monday H&H = 5.9/17.4 :thumbup:, Sat 95% on 4Lnc, tube feeds and "too tired to eat"
More to come later
 
With that disclaimer in the title...

One thing that tends to be overlooked with people that are anemic is trying to dissolve more O2 into the plasma (even without hyperbaric). Remember your O2 content equation: CaO2=(Hgb x 1.36) x SaO2 + (PaO2 x 0.0031). I know that it doesn't seem like you would really be able to get much O2 into the plasma, but let's take a look.

Now imagine how you could do with some increase in mean airway pressure and 100% FiO2 (CPAP on 100%?). Of course, you would have to think about the problems of oxygen toxicity and see if your risks outweighed your rewards.

To answer your hyperbaric question... I don't think that it couldn't hurt (think of all the O2 you would get in your plasma then!). You could always order a transcutaneous O2 study be done (not sure if they would be able to do it on the graft or not). That would give you an idea of how the affected site is doing on oxygenation... then you could try a few dives and recheck the TcO2 (or check it in the HBO chamber during a dive). Where were the grafts?

I hope that this helps. Like I said, I'm not a physician, but only a respiratory therapist... just like learning opportunities.

Good luck!

Increasing the MAP does nothing for increasing tissue oxygenation - it's a function of the partial pressure of gases, not the pressure of the gas in the airways.

You're correct though that at hyperbaric pressures, a lot of O2 can be dissolved in the plasma - in fact, it's possible to sustain life with no hemoglobin at high enough hyperbaric pressures.

It's been 20 years since my hyperbaric course, but the physiology of hyperbarics, diving, and deep undersea medicine is fascinating. Imagine living on the ocean bottom for weeks at a time with FiO2's of 1/2-1% or so. At 20-40 ATM of pressure, that's all you need to keep a pO2 in the normal range.
 
Increasing the MAP does nothing for increasing tissue oxygenation - it's a function of the partial pressure of gases, not the pressure of the gas in the airways.

Yes... My RT professors would shoot me for making that statement (as well as that Dalton guy ;))... although, wouldn't increasing the MAP effectively increase your Pb in the alveolar air equation? I realize that 1 atm ~ 160 cm H2O (If I remember correctly), so by placing a person on 10 cm H2O wouldn't really do THAT much (not like putting them at 2 atm). But in THEORY, couldn't it increase your P(Alveolar) a bit? I dunno... that's just my take on it. Please point out any errors in my judgment.
 
Mean airway pressure is not a part of the alveolar gas equation. FiO2, Pi (Patm -P water), humidity, PACo2, and respiratory quotient are.
This I understand, but my question is as follows: Does a change in mean airway pressure alter the Patm term in that equation? I realize that this increase is nothing clinically significant (if 1 atm really is roughly 160 cmH2O), but I am talking theoretically.

I also understand that the main reason that we increase MAP (with PEEP or otherwise) to help improve oxygenation is to help rectify any V/Q mismatching that we have going on.

Thanks.
 
Pt is on the way up. After 3 weeks of Hgb's in the 5's, it is up to 6.8 and moving up.
DVT's still and issue, but arm is better.
Probably kick the Pt out by next week.

Good thread and thanks
 
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