Iowa State (OOS) vs LMU

[lizardman]

Hey everyone!

I never thought I’d be in this position, but I’m all but guaranteed a spot at ISU (5/268 on their OOS waitlist) and on LMU’s waitlist which I know moves relatively quickly as well so wanted to post a thread to get some input. I did see the other thread comparing the two which was helpful, but I’d like advice on a couple more specific aspects that are important to me (culture, specifically LGBT acceptance, is a major one as I’m very visibly gay and not into the idea of being treated any more differently than strictly necessary because of it for 4 years while going through a rigorous academic curriculum and attempting to seek out educational opportunities in the area).

As the two schools are essentially equal in cost, here’s a breakdown of what I’ve been thinking so far. Some of these points are hearsay and assumptions based on location, school websites, and prospective student presentations and such so please correct me if I’m off base for any of it. Sorry if it’s long, I included my reasoning on a lot of the bullets.

IOWA STATE

PROS
-More established school and curriculum
-Teaching hospital (I find it cool that it’s connected to the main academic building so that everything is easily accessible and students could go shadow in their free time too)
-Closer to things to do (right outside of Des Moines, Minneapolis a couple hours away). I thought this might fall under my culture point as well, as urban areas tend to be more diverse accepting generally— but Iowa isn’t really known for that as a state so I’d love some advice on this one
-I have terrible year-round environmental allergies to the point of it being more of a moderate severity chronic illness to mitigate than an annoyance and think Iowa would probably be easier on them than Eastern TN/SW VA, but unsure about this since LMU is in the mountains which aren’t as bad as the surrounding area sometimes

CONS
-Lose opportunity to travel around the country, network, and “test” different areas to live and work for distributive clinical year
-More lecture-heavy curriculum
-Attrition rate seems high and dismissal policy is strict compared to other schools. I don’t plan to fail out but I mean, neither does anyone? I struggled in undergrad due to undiagnosed ADHD and have fixed those issues but am still anxious over this.
-Less nature surrounding. I don’t know how much time I’ll have for it but I like being able to camp and hike and nature and beautiful surroundings are huge stress relievers for me.
-Somewhat further from support network (flying vs driving distance)

LMU

PROS
-Curriculum seems super interesting and is focused on producing hit-the-ground-running new doctors with an emphasis on practical skills, which I think would really work with my learning style (hands-on instruction is my jam if I want to really
understand something)
-Distributive model for clinical year. I know this is a con for a lot of people but I actually really love the idea of getting a camper and traveling the country to network and learn in a professional environment in clinics of my choice. My career interests are in companion exotics and/or shelter med and community practice so this option appeals to me so I could tailor my clinical year to what I want to be doing. I live very close to a veterinary school with a teaching hospital and vet students I’ve worked with commonly complain that there are just too many students there and they didn’t get to learn things hands-on and 1:1, which is important to me— some of their instruction is even virtual, such as Zoom for rounds and observations. Some also mentioned that they learned the ‘ivory tower’ method of doing things as the standard which, while it makes sense for a cutting-edge teaching hospital, complicated their first jobs after graduation and added in a whole extra learning curve surrounding spectrum of care, affordability, and what is actually most commonly done in practice in the field. I don’t know how much of that is true of all teaching hospitals at all, just throwing it out there in case it explains some of my viewpoint on this.
-Location as far as nature and surroundings go
-Somewhat closer to support network (4-5ish hour drive vs flying distance)
-More academic support in general for students, I attended several admissions presentations and they seemed to really want their students to succeed and be willing to offer assistance to anyone struggling

CONS
-Lose opportunity to have access to a teaching hospital and all of its resources for all 4 years
-Potentially more conservative/less accepting since it’s in rural TN
-Newer, less established school
-Recently expanded to 2 classes per year and is opening another campus in FL soon. I don’t know why, but this rapid expansion by a newer school gives me pause? Maybe it’s just me.
-Potentially a lot worse environmental allergies, although this might be somewhat mitigated by location in the mountains
-Less to do in area, although there are more outdoorsy opportunities


I keep leaning more one way than the other so genuinely have no idea where I’d go if I had to decide today. Any advice or input is welcome!

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[Chqu22]

Current VM1 at ISU and love it hear! I identify as part of the LGBTQ+ community and have found everyone here to be very supportive, but don't feel like I am being treated 'differently' if that makes sense. Ames as a college town I have found it to be very accepting as well! It is a bit of a smaller town, but like you said Des Moines is just a drive away for weekend activities when we don't have any exams coming up. I am also a part of our VOICE chapter here on campus that aims to make vet med more inclusive - while our executive team is small it has introduced me to some great people that are so kind!

I don't know too much about the clinical schedule yet, but a few people I have known have been able to travel to a bunch of places for their clinical rotations! Whether it's a specialty hospital in Washington or an ASPCA internship in NY, it seems like students are able to check out different places for possible employment/internship/residency.

For the academic policy, it does seem intimidating but I have not had any issues so far! We have only lost a few people in our class, only which a few actually failed out whereas others realized vet med wasn't for them or had other personal issues going on. The professors here are very supportive as well. Our first exam I did not do as well as I wanted to and met with the professor (he had some great pointers), and every exam after I did extremely well! If you have specific questions about the academic policy let me know, but the main thing is that we are a professional school for a reason so guidelines need to be in place. Every school is different - some consider a below 70 a failing, others will let you drop down to the class below, etc. But like I said I have not had any issues with this and it was something I was worried about when I was deciding as well!

I also love nature and have had no problem finding activities to do! I am from IL, so that is also a pretty boring state in my opinion, but there are a fair amount of trails nearby that are fun! Especially for my classmates that have dogs

While the curriculum is lecture heavy, through joining clubs and other opportunities you definitely get involved! First semester you have a clinical skills class where you work with cats and dogs. Some of my VM1 friends are in the shelter medicine elective now and are working on planning a vaccine clinic! I am interested in small animal medicine (possibly specializing in onco) so I have met with some onco clinicians and they have all been wonderful. I am also involved in the Foal ICU program we have here and that has been great on-hands experience as well! Keep in mind as well that virtually most vet schools are lecture heavy as well in the first 2-3 years.

Let me know if that helps and if you have any other questions! If you happen to be coming to the preview day this weekend, I can be happy to meet up with you as well!

 

[JaynaAli]

I’d pick Iowa because it’s a more established school and I think the teaching hospital/access to specialists is important.

 

[lizardman]

Current VM1 at ISU and love it hear! I identify as part of the LGBTQ+ community and have found everyone here to be very supportive, but don't feel like I am being treated 'differently' if that makes sense. Ames as a college town I have found it to be very accepting as well! It is a bit of a smaller town, but like you said Des Moines is just a drive away for weekend activities when we don't have any exams coming up. I am also a part of our VOICE chapter here on campus that aims to make vet med more inclusive - while our executive team is small it has introduced me to some great people that are so kind!

I don't know too much about the clinical schedule yet, but a few people I have known have been able to travel to a bunch of places for their clinical rotations! Whether it's a specialty hospital in Washington or an ASPCA internship in NY, it seems like students are able to check out different places for possible employment/internship/residency.

For the academic policy, it does seem intimidating but I have not had any issues so far! We have only lost a few people in our class, only which a few actually failed out whereas others realized vet med wasn't for them or had other personal issues going on. The professors here are very supportive as well. Our first exam I did not do as well as I wanted to and met with the professor (he had some great pointers), and every exam after I did extremely well! If you have specific questions about the academic policy let me know, but the main thing is that we are a professional school for a reason so guidelines need to be in place. Every school is different - some consider a below 70 a failing, others will let you drop down to the class below, etc. But like I said I have not had any issues with this and it was something I was worried about when I was deciding as well!

I also love nature and have had no problem finding activities to do! I am from IL, so that is also a pretty boring state in my opinion, but there are a fair amount of trails nearby that are fun! Especially for my classmates that have dogs

While the curriculum is lecture heavy, through joining clubs and other opportunities you definitely get involved! First semester you have a clinical skills class where you work with cats and dogs. Some of my VM1 friends are in the shelter medicine elective now and are working on planning a vaccine clinic! I am interested in small animal medicine (possibly specializing in onco) so I have met with some onco clinicians and they have all been wonderful. I am also involved in the Foal ICU program we have here and that has been great on-hands experience as well! Keep in mind as well that virtually most vet schools are lecture heavy as well in the first 2-3 years.

Let me know if that helps and if you have any other questions! If you happen to be coming to the preview day this weekend, I can be happy to meet up with you as well!

Thank you so much for the in depth response, this is really helpful and reassuring!! Unfortunately I’m not able to make it out for preview day but I did visit the area a few months ago and was able to poke around Ames and see the vet med campus

Maybe I’ll end up meeting you this Fall, VOICE sounds like something I’d be interested in getting involved in as well! And thank you again for all the insight, I really appreciate it.

 

[eleanor713]

I'd pick Iowa! If you're paying the same amount of money I would want to have a hospital on campus. Externships allow you to see different areas of the country the same way a full year without a teaching hospital would.

 

[Chqu22]

Thank you so much for the in depth response, this is really helpful and reassuring!! Unfortunately I’m not able to make it out for preview day but I did visit the area a few months ago and was able to poke around Ames and see the vet med campus

Maybe I’ll end up meeting you this Fall, VOICE sounds like something I’d be interested in getting involved in as well! And thank you again for all the insight, I really appreciate it.

Of course! Like I said, if you do have questions just let me know! Would be happy to connect on social media too I hope to see you this fall!

 

[nicole98]

Hey there! I am a current first year at LMU (part of the 28S class). I am also part of the LGBTQ community and there are actually quite a few of us here and we also have a VOICE chapter! I have personally not had any issues in the area so far. However, I grew up in the south so I am unfortunately somewhat desensitized to things like religious billboards. As for fourth year, I think the importance of the teaching hospital is dependent on what you want to go in to. I am interested in small animal GP so I personally like the idea of the distributive model because it seems more representative of the types of cases I will be seeing as well as the difference in resources and client budgets. However, if you want to specialize and work in a large hospital setting, than perhaps a teaching hospital would be more beneficial (though if you're undecided don't forget about internships/externhips). If you have any questions about LMU as a first year, feel free to message me!

 

[lizardman]

Of course! Like I said, if you do have questions just let me know! Would be happy to connect on social media too I hope to see you this fall!

Sure, I’d be down to connect! I think I’m leaning towards accepting when I get the Iowa offer so honestly you probably will 🤠

Hey there! I am a current first year at LMU (part of the 28S class). I am also part of the LGBTQ community and there are actually quite a few of us here and we also have a VOICE chapter! I have personally not had any issues in the area so far. However, I grew up in the south so I am unfortunately somewhat desensitized to things like religious billboards. As for fourth year, I think the importance of the teaching hospital is dependent on what you want to go in to. I am interested in small animal GP so I personally like the idea of the distributive model because it seems more representative of the types of cases I will be seeing as well as the difference in resources and client budgets. However, if you want to specialize and work in a large hospital setting, than perhaps a teaching hospital would be more beneficial (though if you're undecided don't forget about internships/externhips). If you have any questions about LMU as a first year, feel free to message me!

Hey, thank you so much for weighing in! I do have a couple more questions, I'll shoot you a message!

 

[battie]

I'll hit some things point by point. If there's no response in between quotes, it's because I'm responding to both quotes at once.

-Lose opportunity to travel around the country, network, and “test” different areas to live and work for distributive clinical year

-Distributive model for clinical year. I know this is a con for a lot of people but I actually really love the idea of getting a camper and traveling the country to network and learn in a professional environment in clinics of my choice.

Keep in mind, depending on what the clinical area is, you'll have to be from one clinic to the next within 24 hours. As in you get a single Sunday to travel from one site to the next. Doing this with a camper and sites within ~12-16 driving hours is doable, but can get rough. And then you're screwed if you have car/camper troubles or if weather is bad in any way; not just snow, but highways shut down for wind warnings, fire calls, etc.

There were circumstances where I was finishing an externship, changed into travel clothes in the hospital, and then drove to the airport to catch a flight 3 hours after the end of my shift to fly 1000 miles to be back to Illinois by 7am the next day.

Some also mentioned that they learned the ‘ivory tower’ method of doing things as the standard which, while it makes sense for a cutting-edge teaching hospital, complicated their first jobs after graduation and added in a whole extra learning curve surrounding spectrum of care, affordability, and what is actually most commonly done in practice in the field.

So this is pretty valid depending on the *clinician*, not if it's a teaching hospital or not. Most of the specialists at Illinois were pretty aware that they see a small subset of patients because the majority cannot afford to go to a university. I've also worked with multiple doctors in regular private practice that recommended "ivory tower" medicine to everyone without budging.

Learning the standard of care for your area after practice is quite frankly not something you can be taught. I work in a three hospital group. In my home hospital, we have two demographics: bougie and lower middle class. I offer everything to both equally. But I have also learned how to offer plans 1, 2, and 3 for those that needed it. That's come with experience.

-Attrition rate seems high

I *heavily* doubt these numbers I've seen floating around here lately, particularly with how Iowa does their academic dismissal. If the school was losing that many students, they're losing a **** ton of money. And while he's, every school wants students to succeed (more on that below), they also need tuition to run the school. Schools would much rather keep as many students as possible than to lose any. Unfortunately schools are not required to publish attrition rates based on category. But this high of attrition rates coming from a state side school is honestly borderline ridiculous to me.

-Less nature surrounding. I don’t know how much time I’ll have for it but I like being able to camp and hike and nature and beautiful surroundings are huge stress relievers for me.

I mean, nature is what you make of it, right? Iowa has state and national parks same as everywhere else. And I get it, forests and mountains are cool. I'm from Colorado, so the "mountains" around LMU don't even compare to what I grew up with. But likewise, I lived in Nebraska for 5 years and find it gorgeous. You could likely develop some pretty good hiking/camping spots you'll love over the course of 4 years at any school.

-Curriculum seems super interesting and is focused on producing hit-the-ground-running new doctors

Every curriculum wants to produce "day 1 doctors" as the new motto seems to be. And there's no data to suggest any one school produces better or worse doctors tbh. So you can assume this point is true of all vet schools, not just LMU.

-More academic support in general for students, I attended several admissions presentations and they seemed to really want their students to succeed and be willing to offer assistance to anyone struggling

So. This point just gets me. Cause this is also every school. It's just what admissions department is best at selling this to students. Who can sell the ~vibes~ best. Sure, to the university, you're a faceless number that sends in a check or hasa FAFSA deposit every 6 months. Meh. Even to most of the upper administration, you'll e a recognizable face, but some of those folks who keep track of the 4-500 students wouldn't be able to tell you your name. But the profs and clinicians as a group who see you *every day*? Yeah, most care. Most want to see y'all group up from students to baby doctors from day one. This applies to all schools.

I will say there are absolutely 100% students from *every single school* who feel they were left behind by their program. That their program didn't care about them specifically. And their experience is theirs and important to consider. So no program is perfect cause there's only so much they can do.

Also, the money. The more students the schools lose, the more money they lose.

I don’t know why, but this rapid expansion by a newer school gives me pause? Maybe it’s just me.

This should give everyone pause no matter which school is doing this. Id feel this way if it was Cornell. It's bad for the industry of veterinary education and bad for veterinarians 5-10 years down the road. I'm glad I'll have an established career and likely my loans paid off. But this is a separate soap box I don't need to go on a rant for.

 

[lizardman]

I'll hit some things point by point. If there's no response in between quotes, it's because I'm responding to both quotes at once.



Keep in mind, depending on what the clinical area is, you'll have to be from one clinic to the next within 24 hours. As in you get a single Sunday to travel from one site to the next. Doing this with a camper and sites within ~12-16 driving hours is doable, but can get rough. And then you're screwed if you have car/camper troubles or if weather is bad in any way; not just snow, but highways shut down for wind warnings, fire calls, etc.

There were circumstances where I was finishing an externship, changed into travel clothes in the hospital, and then drove to the airport to catch a flight 3 hours after the end of my shift to fly 1000 miles to be back to Illinois by 7am the next day.

So this is pretty valid depending on the *clinician*, not if it's a teaching hospital or not. Most of the specialists at Illinois were pretty aware that they see a small subset of patients because the majority cannot afford to go to a university. I've also worked with multiple doctors in regular private practice that recommended "ivory tower" medicine to everyone without budging.

Learning the standard of care for your area after practice is quite frankly not something you can be taught. I work in a three hospital group. In my home hospital, we have two demographics: bougie and lower middle class. I offer everything to both equally. But I have also learned how to offer plans 1, 2, and 3 for those that needed it. That's come with experience.

I *heavily* doubt these numbers I've seen floating around here lately, particularly with how Iowa does their academic dismissal. If the school was losing that many students, they're losing a **** ton of money. And while he's, every school wants students to succeed (more on that below), they also need tuition to run the school. Schools would much rather keep as many students as possible than to lose any. Unfortunately schools are not required to publish attrition rates based on category. But this high of attrition rates coming from a state side school is honestly borderline ridiculous to me.

I mean, nature is what you make of it, right? Iowa has state and national parks same as everywhere else. And I get it, forests and mountains are cool. I'm from Colorado, so the "mountains" around LMU don't even compare to what I grew up with. But likewise, I lived in Nebraska for 5 years and find it gorgeous. You could likely develop some pretty good hiking/camping spots you'll love over the course of 4 years at any school.

Every curriculum wants to produce "day 1 doctors" as the new motto seems to be. And there's no data to suggest any one school produces better or worse doctors tbh. So you can assume this point is true of all vet schools, not just LMU.

So. This point just gets me. Cause this is also every school. It's just what admissions department is best at selling this to students. Who can sell the ~vibes~ best. Sure, to the university, you're a faceless number that sends in a check or hasa FAFSA deposit every 6 months. Meh. Even to most of the upper administration, you'll e a recognizable face, but some of those folks who keep track of the 4-500 students wouldn't be able to tell you your name. But the profs and clinicians as a group who see you *every day*? Yeah, most care. Most want to see y'all group up from students to baby doctors from day one. This applies to all schools.

I will say there are absolutely 100% students from *every single school* who feel they were left behind by their program. That their program didn't care about them specifically. And their experience is theirs and important to consider. So no program is perfect cause there's only so much they can do.

Also, the money. The more students the schools lose, the more money they lose.

This should give everyone pause no matter which school is doing this. Id feel this way if it was Cornell. It's bad for the industry of veterinary education and bad for veterinarians 5-10 years down the road. I'm glad I'll have an established career and likely my loans paid off. But this is a separate soap box I don't need to go on a rant for.

Thank you! I appreciate the perspective and dose of realism and this gave me a lot to consider.

I’m still planning on visiting LMU and feeling out the area and program to make sure I don’t fall head over heels for it or something, but am leaving heavily towards Iowa at this point if I do end up accepted to both. Your point about certain “vibes” being which admissions departments are best at marketing themselves to prospective students makes a lot of sense and isn’t something I’d really thought about that way.

 

[Gangar#094]

This should give everyone pause no matter which school is doing this. Id feel this way if it was Cornell. It's bad for the industry of veterinary education and bad for veterinarians 5-10 years down the road. I'm glad I'll have an established career and likely my loans paid off. But this is a separate soap box I don't need to go on a rant for.

The Orange Park Campus will be a separate CVM and not an expansion of the existing LMU-CVM. So while it is an expansion, it is an expansion of LMU as part of its umbrella of professional programs in FL.

As for the second class, LMU-CVM had to submit a request to the COE, which they approved. The COE will continue monitoring the school's reports to determine whether the needs for the expansion can and are being met.

As for travel, battie is right. I think LMU allows the full weekend, but that isn't much when traveling cross-country. LMU-CVM Students do have a say in the distance they travel and many make it work, but it is fair to say it's not as glamorous once you're in the think of it. That said, IIRC, rotations vary between 2, 4, 6 and 8 week stops. There's a break scheduled and NAVEL prep/study/test taking factored into the rotation schedule as well.

battie is also right about sales. Admissions for any college is the front-facing salesforce of a college. It's fine and all to hear from staff, but hearing from various students is also good but no matter the school you'll likely hear a story three ways: phenomenal, meets expectations, to the bad experiences. All schools will produce a veterinarian, but the question ultimately is: is it the school you feel you'll succeed at best?

Fun fact, LMU-CVM faculty has a fair number of Iowa CVM alumni. Was it a fun fact? Idk, but I find it interesting.

 

[battie]

The Orange Park Campus will be a separate CVM and not an expansion of the existing LMU-CVM. So while it is an expansion, it is an expansion of LMU as part of its umbrella of professional programs in FL.

I'm 100% against any school opening any more campuses, whether it's a brand new school or a campus off shoot. The soul exceptions I have are Texas Tech and potentially Utah State due to their commitment to low costs.