Institutional Readmission

[jeffersonstomato]

Can anyone with experience in admin/ veterans' law/ admissions help me out with the following scenario?

I intend to join the military reserves after applying to medical school. For reasons I will not get into on this forum, this is non-negotiable. Submitting my application prior to swearing in means I will check "civilian" on the primary app and not require the letter of approval from the military to AAMC. AAMC has clarified with me via email that my joining would not require me updating my primary application.

The plan is as follows:
1. Apply as a civilian
2. Swear into the reserves
3. interview, and get my acceptance to US MD school
4. Defer acceptance for military service (active duty training) in accordance with "institutional readmission" section 1091c of title 20 of the United States Code. (essentially USERRA for students).

My question is if anyone here has experience with the institutional readmission law, and how it worked in each scenario? Obviously I do not think my medical school would be happy to hear about my decision, but what are the chances they would try to fight me on this/ attempt to withdraw acceptance?

A law review for institutional readmission outlining a nearly identical scenario can be found here:https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.roa.org/resource/resmgr/lawreviews/2023/23062-lr.pdf

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[armytrainingsir]

Why are you asking when your mind is made up and your plan is ‘nonnegotiable’?

Seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

 

[jeffersonstomato]

Why are you asking when your mind is made up and your plan is ‘nonnegotiable’?

Seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

Yeah I could have made it more clear; I am asking if anyone has experience using the institutional readmission law, and how that conversation went over with the med school

 

[backrow]

How long do you plan on deferring admission? The entire time you are in the Reserves or just for the initial training?

If you plan on doing the “regular” Reserves while in medical school then I wish you well and best of luck during clinical years. I know there are some special programs in the Army that might make this somewhat feasible, but I have a feeling you would have mentioned this if that were the case.

It’s definitely a good way to start a career in healthcare by deceiving people through lack of disclosure. /s

 

[DMBandFan86]

What the are you talking about?

You want to enlist in the reserves or get a commission? Why would you want to be a non-medical soldier as a physician (assuming)

Yea I was an e4 in the reserves when I went to med school. But I haven’t met someone with such ambitions. Why wouldn’t you just do MDSSP and get a commission, get years of retirement while in training, have health insurance, and get paid to do nothing for drill weekends and just start school when you’re supposed to. Every year you delay is hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost opportunity cost.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

So are you attempting to secure a place in medical school and once done, seeking a reserve enlistment or commission to secure eligibility for G.I. Bill educational benefits so that you can use those benefits to pay for school (but not be obligated to apply for a military residency as with HPSP?) Or is there some other purpose you are seeking by your plan? The article you cite rests on a statutory argument, but there don't seem to be any case references where a military member denied readmission successfully was awarded a judgment compelling readmission.

One issue may be a counterclaim by the educational institution of an applicant submitting a bad-faith application given that most schools accept applicants for a specific class (unless, I suppose, special circumstances such as an early-admission program or a combined-degree program that might anticipate a later graduation date.) You are positing a circumstance where you would represent yourself to the school as an ordinary matriculant but in fact you would be already planning, if not undertaking a conflicting military service obligation that would prevent you from fulfilling matriculation at the expected starting date. That leaves the school pulling from its wait-listed candidates to fill the slot you would be taking and then leaves them wondering whether you will be returning in four years or five years or whenever to exercise your supposed right to return.

At least you will be noticed.

 

[armytrainingsir]

So are you attempting to secure a place in medical school and once done, seeking a reserve enlistment or commission to secure eligibility for G.I. Bill educational benefits so that you can use those benefits to pay for school (but not be obligated to apply for a military residency as with HPSP?……

Ha! That was my thought as well.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The only part I haven't sussed is whether there is some further undisclosed fact or circumstance that would render you unfit for service once enlisted or commissioned but not for discharge with loss of benefits, a scammer's trifecta.

 

[xffan624]

So are you attempting to secure a place in medical school and once done, seeking a reserve enlistment or commission to secure eligibility for G.I. Bill educational benefits so that you can use those benefits to pay for school (but not be obligated to apply for a military residency as with HPSP?) Or is there some other purpose you are seeking by your plan? The article you cite rests on a statutory argument, but there don't seem to be any case references where a military member denied readmission successfully was awarded a judgment compelling readmission.

One issue may be a counterclaim by the educational institution of an applicant submitting a bad-faith application given that most schools accept applicants for a specific class (unless, I suppose, special circumstances such as an early-admission program or a combined-degree program that might anticipate a later graduation date.) You are positing a circumstance where you would represent yourself to the school as an ordinary matriculant but in fact you would be already planning, if not undertaking a conflicting military service obligation that would prevent you from fulfilling matriculation at the expected starting date. That leaves the school pulling from its wait-listed candidates to fill the slot you would be taking and then leaves them wondering whether you will be returning in four years or five years or whenever to exercise your supposed right to return.

At least you will be noticed.

You have to have 36 months of active duty time for full GI Bill benefits. OP might get 90 days from active duty training in the reserves to earn eligibility, but that's only 50%. Doesn't seem worth the hassle to me. Unless I missed something and they're actually going active duty. Why would they need to defer 4 years if they're going reserves though? This is all very confusing to me.

 

[SirGecko]

It seems like the application of this law to medical school is likely going to be pretty rare as people who are in the reserves in medical school are in as a medical student not a line officer and generally are able to attend school. It is a weird plan and I'm not sure why you are contemplating it. (maybe the reason would be helpful for getting advise?) Why not just apply to medical school when you can actually matriculate?

I am not a lawyer but reading the article you posted it seems that you could potentially have trouble with the spirit of the "advanced notice" requirement. I don't see a strict timeline in the statute but it does say that you should provide it "as far in advanced as is reasonable under the circumstances". I would read that to mean that since this is already your plan, you need to tell them your plan now, like when you apply. It does also say later that the institution can't enforce a specific timeliness requirement and that the fulfilment of that requirement is case specific but I wouldn't take that to mean this point couldn't be argued if they decided to argue it. Also if they wanted to argue it they could try to say you were no longer prepared to start medical school depending on what you do in the interim.

Generally speaking transparency is probably the best option when dealing with professional applications. Networking and human connections in medicine can be an important part of your career so starting out trying some weird machinations might not be the best policy. That said if you are successful at getting them to allow you to matriculate I doubt the faculty are going to care about the admissions drama. They might, but I think its usually a pretty separate department. The admissions people might not actually care that much either as long as you tell them soon after they send you the acceptance so they can grab a waitlist person but it seems like a weird risk to take for questionable benefit. Just from a gamesmanship standpoint I think you are more likely to encounter fighting on this if you hide the plan ahead of time than you are to encounter discrimination based on the plan if you disclose. (but maybe I'm mistaken)

 

[jeffersonstomato]

@SirGecko @orbitsurgMD
I appreciate the responses. Regarding advanced notice, I would forward my orders to the school as I got them. In my experience, nothing is written in stone until orders are in hand. I will not be deferring anything until I have an exact report date that conflicts with matriculation.

Also, it seems very common for students to defer one or two years for personal and research activities. I think the essence of what I'm seeking isn't groundbreaking, only that there is a law ensuring I am granted the deferment and reacceptance.

 

[xffan624]

@SirGecko @orbitsurgMD
I appreciate the responses. Regarding advanced notice, I would forward my orders to the school as I got them. In my experience, nothing is written in stone until orders are in hand. I will not be deferring anything until I have an exact report date that conflicts with matriculation.

Also, it seems very common for students to defer one or two years for personal and research activities. I think the essence of what I'm seeking isn't groundbreaking, only that there is a law ensuring I am granted the deferment and reacceptance.

I knew an officer when I was in the Army who applied to civilian medical schools and got an acceptance but she still had an obligation from ROTC. There was a possibility that she could get released from it, but it took too long for the paperwork and then she had to ask for a deferral. Then she finally got the approval, but changed her mind when she got an opportunity to work at the US Army Surgeon General Office and wanted to defer again. It was a bit crazy, I thought, as I was actually applying to medical school at the time and it seemed like she was just taking her acceptance for granted. Her situation seems a little equivalent to OP. The school seemed to be accepting of her deferrals both times. It was a state school IIRC. I think she was still considering HPSP. We were all trying to convince her to just use her GI Bill. She ended up leaving the unit for the next assignment so I don't know what ultimately happened with her.

 

[Gastrapathy]

The lost years of earning as a MD make this such a bad idea.

 

[GreenHousePub]

You're going to need admission for institutionalization from all the stress this is going to cause.
Talking about the grippy sock kind.

 

[usma05]

This is a bad idea. The Big Green Weenie cares not, and your med school is going to say you misrepresented yourself as your intention before checking that box 'civilian' was not to be a civilian. You're asking for drama, and I don't get why. Just do STRAP or whatever it's called where your attached to APMC while a student and have minimal obligation until after. I don't think you're going to get the confirmation bias your seeking here for this bad idea. Usually Barracks lawyers have a bit more experience and don't come off the street interpreting regs and laws....but be assured, the Army will interpret whatever statute in the way that it benefits itself.

 

[jeffersonstomato]

I knew an officer when I was in the Army who applied to civilian medical schools and got an acceptance but she still had an obligation from ROTC. There was a possibility that she could get released from it, but it took too long for the paperwork and then she had to ask for a deferral. Then she finally got the approval, but changed her mind when she got an opportunity to work at the US Army Surgeon General Office and wanted to defer again. It was a bit crazy, I thought, as I was actually applying to medical school at the time and it seemed like she was just taking her acceptance for granted. Her situation seems a little equivalent to OP. The school seemed to be accepting of her deferrals both times. It was a state school IIRC. I think she was still considering HPSP. We were all trying to convince her to just use her GI Bill. She ended up leaving the unit for the next assignment so I don't know what ultimately happened with her.

Yes, this is the most similar situation I have heard of so I appreciate your sharing it. I think what I'm finding is that this is a unique enough situation that there is not much precedent to sort through.

As far as the misrepresentation some people here bring up, it seems far more problematic to mark the "service member" box while not actually a service member; accepting any special consideration that grants because "well yeah, I will join later"

The other side of this is that I want to ensure my rights as an applicant/service member protected. Sure, employers and schools are legally obligated to not discriminate against applicants due to their current or planned military service, but in hyper competitive industries, there is certainly unspoken bias against someone who has military reserve commitments, no matter what the law or their school policy says.

 

[pgg]

I intend to join the military reserves after applying to medical school. For reasons I will not get into on this forum, this is non-negotiable.

Why do you want to join the reserves?

I won't try to talk you out of it. You just have a weird plan, and the crux of it centers around the very unusual idea of squeezing some reserve service in between undergrad and medical school. What are you going to do with the rest of your time when you're not one-weekend'ing and two-weeks-per-year'ing your reserve time?

Ain't nothing wrong with taking some time off between undergrad and medical school, so long as you understand the opportunity cost of doing so. But joining the reserves is an unusual use of that time.

 

[deleted1158195]

This is going to be a lot peoples unnecessary waste of time.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Can anyone with experience in admin/ veterans' law/ admissions help me out with the following scenario?

I intend to join the military reserves after applying to medical school. For reasons I will not get into on this forum, this is non-negotiable. Submitting my application prior to swearing in means I will check "civilian" on the primary app and not require the letter of approval from the military to AAMC. AAMC has clarified with me via email that my joining would not require me updating my primary application.

The plan is as follows:
1. Apply as a civilian
2. Swear into the reserves
3. interview, and get my acceptance to US MD school
4. Defer acceptance for military service (active duty training) in accordance with "institutional readmission" section 1091c of title 20 of the United States Code. (essentially USERRA for students).

My question is if anyone here has experience with the institutional readmission law, and how it worked in each scenario? Obviously I do not think my medical school would be happy to hear about my decision, but what are the chances they would try to fight me on this/ attempt to withdraw acceptance?

A law review for institutional readmission outlining a nearly identical scenario can be found here:https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.roa.org/resource/resmgr/lawreviews/2023/23062-lr.pdf

Are you doing this for citizenship or are you signing into the reserves to complete an educational service obligation like ROTC? It just doesn't make sense. Just go to medical school if you get in.

 

[usma05]

Go check out what really happens at the drill hall in between sign-in and sign-out. Learn the secret of the sauce. It ain't sexy or fun. And then contemplate having to explain to your med school why you have to be excused for it when their frustrated and you realize drill isn't as fun as you thought.