MD How does someone appeal a dismissal?

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genessis42

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I had two lukewarm evals on 2 rotations during 3rd year where two attendings blindsided me. I wasn't given feedback while rotating and then got very critical eval comments, even though they still said that I improved.

The school gave a "professionalism" probation for the rest of my time in school, so it's not a dismissal but it can still look bad on a Dean's letter, and im worried that I can get dismissed if something else comes up. What recommendations would you have for trying to appeal? Should I get help from the other attendings who have me good evaluations?

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Lukewarm evals don't equate to a professionalism probation, so even if you don't tell us what's really going on, you should probably address that and fix your issue.

Is there an appeal process for this laid out in the student handbook/school rules or wherever?
 
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Yeah there is definitely a lot of info missing . Regardless appeals depend on schools
 
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They said tardiness and that I struggled with questions on cases. Although I was never warned or told this on the rotations at all

The other rotations I went on had positive evaluations.
 
They said tardiness and that I struggled with questions on cases. Although I was never warned or told this on the rotations at all

The other rotations I went on had positive evaluations.

I mean if you’re late all the time it’s not great for professionalism standards. Did you pass the rotation?
 
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Yes I passed the rotation and the comments also said I improved by the end of it.

That's one reason I think the school should wait for my other grades to come back before deciding on a probation hanging over me the rest of med school
 
I’m sorry, you’re in a professional school. You should not need to be told to show up on time. When you act unprofessionally, there are predictable consequences, and this is one of them.

That said it doesn’t hurt to see if you can get the probation lifted because it does look bad. The person to talk to is the rotation director. Beg for mercy and promise it’ll never happen again, and emphasize that you were improving. Maybe they will be nice and cut you a break.
 
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I thought I have nothing to lose by at least trying. I'm not going to ask to lift it completely but to wait for the rest of my evaluations to come in which show improvement. I feel like they made a decision too quickly
 
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I thought I have nothing to lose by at least trying. I'm not going to ask to lift it completely but to wait for the rest of my evaluations to come in which show improvement. I feel like they made a decision too quickly
Nothing wrong trying. Just would avoid saying you were "never warned or told this on the rotation at all," as you’re gonna get the reaction I had. I really would just go with "I'm sorry I had such a lapse in professionalism. I have taken steps to ensure this is no longer a problem, and my evaluations since reflect this. Since this would adversely affect my chances in the match, please give me one more chance."

And it goes without saying, but you need to show up 5 minutes early for the rest of med school.
 
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And it goes without saying, but you need to show up 5 minutes early for the rest of med school.

I would encourage arriving early, it demonstrates motivation as well professionalism.

As an old DI once told me....."When you are early, you are on time. When you are on time, you are late. And when you're late, you're dead". A little strong but the point was well made and I've never forgotten it.
 
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Root cause this. Travel time? Lack of enthusiasm? Home responsibilities? Personality trait? Pathology?....Why are you late more than what is excusable (once or maybe twice during a rotation)?

If you can get to the root cause, you can more easily address it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Unless you can document a good reason why you were consistently tardy, I'm not sure you'll be successful in getting this overturned (if that was the main reason behind your less than stellar evals). I guess it's worth a try though.
 
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How late were you and how often? Were you 30 mins late every day or 5 mins late a couple of times? D
 
There's no harm in asking for them to reconsider but you probably won't be successful.

If i remember correctly there's a section of the ERAS application where you have to explain board failures, LOAs, and I believe probation. (it might only be academic not professional). So this may cost you some interviews.

As far as being on probation it shouldn't effect you now as you should plan to never be late again. I had a minor professionalism violation and although it did not lead to probation it was a wake up call that I needed to take things more seriously.
 
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It was never 30 minutes, but it was like 5 mins couple times. But I think it looked like a pattern because 2 of the evals mentioned it while the rest had good comments.

It's probably unrealistic to ask for a complete overturn but I could ask for a timeline to demonstrate that I fixed it. I've still got more evaluations coming in for this year.

Best & Most practical solution: Don't do it again.
 
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I’m sorry, you’re in a professional school. You should not need to be told to show up on time. When you act unprofessionally, there are predictable consequences, and this is one of them.
Youve never been late before. going by what you say, every surgeon I know would lose their medical license since they are on their own time schedule
 
Youve never been late before. going by what you say, every surgeon I know would lose their medical license since they are on their own time schedule
Yeah you can do what you want when you’re the boss, not when you’re a student. It’s never good to waste someone’s time, but when you’re wasting the time of someone who is evaluating you it is going to bite you.
 
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Youve never been late before. going by what you say, every surgeon I know would lose their medical license since they are on their own time schedule
You are talking apples to oranges and the comparison does not hold water.....We are talking about a medical student who arrived late on multiple occasions...Period!
 
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You are talking apples to oranges and the comparison does not hold water.....We are talking about a medical student who arrived late on multiple occasions...Period!
no way. that aint Sh**
 
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I will say, something doesn’t totally add up. A student doesn’t get out on probation for showing up 5 minutes late a couple of times. Either it was way more common, or there were other negative comments that we aren’t hearing
 
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I will say, something doesn’t totally add up. A student doesn’t get out on probation for showing up 5 minutes late a couple of times. Either it was way more common, or there were other negative comments that we aren’t hearing
From the OP's second post: "They said tardiness and that I struggled with questions on cases"
 
Read this and remember it for the rest of your life:

As a physician, if you are not early, you are late.
 
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I concur with the other commenters that as a doctor if you are not early you are late. I would try to work on that issue if that is still possible.
 
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My anatomy professor repeats every week or so "If you're on time, you're late". And if you're late, he'll pimp you and he'll make a fool of you in front of everyone.
 
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This is a long winded response to OP but also contains what I think are generic/useful information for most struggling students.
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In these situations, most times there are legitimate concerns. Many times the remediation techniques are lacking as much or more than the student is, but in the real world, we are all accountable for ourselves. Once you're labeled as a bad apple, it's hard to get that reputation off and there will be those looking for mistakes as opposed to see improvement so the best strategy being a learner is prevention (just like in medicine) and making sure there is no microscope on you in the first place. It's always good to have a healthy level of "type-A" or proactive personality as an intern reflexively trying to find and improve your mistakes because many will exist. It can be a difficult balance between that and putting yourself down too much so it's a careful balance. Many times, students/residents are not notified something is happening until it it's late in the process. Part of the problem is that students don't see the subtle signs or make excuses for themselves. Students are so used to thinking they're competent and justifiably so because they worked hard to get where they are and when they get called out, they try to find another reason (i.e. this attending's style is different). I feel we need to go back to normalizing real constructive critical feedback but do it in a professional way Most medical students I work with in my field are not exposed to what they need to be. I'm not saying they're incompetent because when it comes time for residency, many students quickly learn, however, some learners are slower than others or just didn't learn simple things and when the whole class is one place and they are functioning at new M3 level and it goes undiagnosed for several months, that's where problems arise. I also think medical education (like many other fieds) favors fast adapters/learners as opposed to genuinely interested learners, but that's a separate discussion. Overall, OP I would count myself lucky you got this wake up call in medical school itself. Chances are this would have shown up in residency if it didn't show up here and while it may hurt your residency application, you can bounce back and this may change how you practice your entire medical career. Now to the issues you've cited:

1.) Tardiness: I characterize tardiness in two ways.

A. Home-Hospital tardiness is unacceptable at this stage in life. Fix that. If you make it to the hospital, there's no reason you couldn't have been there 10-15 minutes earlier. Completely deprioritize whatever it is that is making you late. Most of the time it's sleep which I get can be tricky especially for tough wakers because you need sleep. One helpful tip I once got was that if you have a tough time waking up or sometimes wake up earlier than you should, don't drift back to sleep if you wake up and there's less than 90 minutes until you have to be up. Just get up. Similarly, if you wake up and there's 120 minutes till wake up, set an alarm to wake up in 100 minutes to give yourself 10 minutes to go to sleep and 90 for a cycle. To avoid complexity, try to keep your sleep-wake cycle as consistent as possible. See a sleep counselor if you need to. This is important! You will reap exponentially more benefits if you fix this now than later. If you are waking up on time, your morning commute or routine are likely the issue which are more fixable.

B. Hospital-Rounds tardiness is unprofessional, but the reasons can often be in good faith. Many times, learners are inefficient in collecting information they need prior to rounds. This needs to be intervened on very early (i.e. the first month). Similarly, some are late because they have a counterproductive perfectionist tendency (i.e. lack of prioritization) and want everything wrapped in a bow before rounds. Often, people have some mix of perfectionism-inefficiency. The management for this is to have a senior or someone who does things reasonably well model standard/good practices and it's up to the learner to absorb that feedback, take it to heart, and apply it. Usually it requires taking a step back and not overthinking things and having a system and being organized.

If you liked this blurb, give us some examples of where you struggled with questions on cases. First of all, was this small group break out sessions between medical students? On rounds pimping? OR pimping? Most of the time, it doesn't take a lot of effort to fix this. Most people who are labeled with a knowledge gap in their clinical years are judged to have one because they do or say things an attending will deem "very stupid". That very stupid though is relative to their peers. For example, if a freshly minted M3 tells me Creatinine went from 0.8 to 1.0 in an already sick patient, we'll talk about it. If a freshly minted intern tells me that, then alarm bells go off in my head and I start questioning what they were doing on their medicine month/subI or what else this person may not know and make sure I do pre-intern and pre-senior rounds on their patients. Regardless, the solution is to understand the common things everyone knows. You usually don't get this from a textbook. You won't find a textbook that tells you Hb drop from 9->8 in a septic ICU patient with ESRD is likely relevant. You get that by hearing things and picking up social cues on rounds. Medicine requires you to be a social learner. Work with someone dedicated to teaching you patiently without judgement (i.e) a hospitalist or resident for a week and pick their brain even about stupid stuff. When they tell you your reasoning is wrong, take it at face value and rely on their impression until you can make it on your own. In surgery, the answer's to their questions are not from reading the books at least in medical school. Surgeons are habitual/experienced learners and they usually like to ask the same sets of questions about their pet topics. Find out from someone above you who know what the surgeons are asking. They'll test anatomical landmarks in the OR and ask what what the indications for the procedure are. If you don't know, they'll wonder why you're in the OR wasting your time watching this? My first day of clinicals, my friend told me he was on surgery and he scrubbed for a case and the surgeon was waiting outside the OR and asked the M3 what the potassium was. The student didn't know. He told the student to GTFO out of the OR. Good message, wrong execution. As a resident though, there is a completely seperate set of expectations like procedural incompetence and that's a whole different topic.
 
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OP, sounds like you haven’t been dismissed so nothing to appeal yet. The probation is probably more a procedural move at this point. They’re putting you on written notice to get your act together. Obviously you need to be early to everything until you graduate. If you are, they will probably just let this go and it won’t show up anywhere in your file.

And lemme tell ya, attending surgeons can be “late” only to a point. They can and will revoke your posting privileges if you start getting too out of line. Yes there may be some leeway especially if it’s a highly efficient and established surgeon, but if admin is paying staff to stand around waiting for you, they will nip that in the bud. I watched it happen to one of my attendings in training and he was a very gifted and beloved surgeon. His cases started late and ran late one too many times and he lost posting privileges in our outpatient OR.
 
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OP, sounds like you haven’t been dismissed so nothing to appeal yet. The probation is probably more a procedural move at this point. They’re putting you on written notice to get your act together. Obviously you need to be early to everything until you graduate. If you are, they will probably just let this go and it won’t show up anywhere in your file.

And lemme tell ya, attending surgeons can be “late” only to a point. They can and will revoke your posting privileges if you start getting too out of line. Yes there may be some leeway especially if it’s a highly efficient and established surgeon, but if admin is paying staff to stand around waiting for you, they will nip that in the bud. I watched it happen to one of my attendings in training and he was a very gifted and beloved surgeon. His cases started late and ran late one too many times and he lost posting privileges in our outpatient OR.
was he able to get another job?
 
It seems ridiculous to penalize someone for being late but let me give you a real life, non-surgical example.

I carry the code pager, and at the end of my shift I have to hand the pager to the next guy (or gal). If they're late I get to sit on my butt not getting paid, and on one occasion during this time there was a code and I got stuck at the hospital an hour late to run it - all because they rolled in 10 minutes late.

That was the past though. Now we have text messages instead of pagers, so there isn't a physical handoff. So now I roll out and hope that the next person is there and in house. It's an adverse event waiting to happen as if they roll in late and I already bailed and there's a code called, there won't be anyone to respond. Just them sitting at a red light realizing how badly they've screwed up
 
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It seems ridiculous to penalize someone for being late but let me give you a real life, non-surgical example.

I carry the code pager, and at the end of my shift I have to hand the pager to the next guy (or gal). If they're late I get to sit on my butt not getting paid, and on one occasion during this time there was a code and I got stuck at the hospital an hour late to run it - all because they rolled in 10 minutes late.

That was the past though. Now we have text messages instead of pagers, so there isn't a physical handoff. So now I roll out and hope that the next person is there and in house. It's an adverse event waiting to happen as if they roll in late and I already bailed and there's a code called, there won't be anyone to respond. Just them sitting at a red light realizing how badly they've screwed up
"It seems ridiculous to penalize someone for being late "...sorry, but it is unprofessional.In addition, if being late has no consequences, then what else will happen...dress codes, attitude, etc.

Is it so damn hard to be on time?
 
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"It seems ridiculous to penalize someone for being late "...sorry, but it is unprofessional.In addition, if being late has no consequences, then what else will happen...dress codes, attitude, etc.

Is it so damn hard to be on time?
Uh… did you read the rest of his post?
 
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