How bad is the lifestyle for surgeons?

[DarkBluMage]

No, i have a great relationship with my kids and my wife. I’m just laughing at how ludicrous your position is. It’s clearly coming from someone who has no experience parenting or being in a marriage.

Lmbo sure you do

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[DarkBluMage]

Are you married or a parent? Cause I am and the options definitely aren’t be a deadbeat parent as a surgeon or be single.

I never said it was. If you worked on your reading comprehension I’m addressing the comments of surgeons on here so blatantly choosing to spend barely any time with their family and thinking it’s not an issue cause surgery “isn’t a job it’s a lifestyle”. Lmbo it’s always great to start a family and then neglect it. 🙄

 

[Browns99]

Lmbo you go ahead and do that. Just make sure your family isn’t a side show to your career. They deserve better than that. No point in having a family when you barely even see them. It’s embarrassing seeing so many people build families just to neglect them and make their wives or husbands married single parents and their kids being ignored and deprived of an active parent like they deserve. Super selfish. Makes no sense.

I assume this dude is a troll...please ignore him.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

Lmbo you go ahead and do that. Just make sure your family isn’t a side show to your career. They deserve better than that. No point in having a family when you barely even see them. It’s embarrassing seeing so many people build families just to neglect them and make their wives or husbands married single parents and their kids being ignored and deprived of an active parent like they deserve. Super selfish. Makes no sense.

My father worked an incredible amount when I was a kid, and he didn't bring home anywhere close to the amount a surgeon makes. So that means he wasn't just barely around, but when he was around there was tons of stuff to be done. When he had a day off on the weekend, he was repairing something broken in the house. When he got vacation time, he either slept out of exhaustion or we spent 12 hours driving to the lake because we didn't want to spend money on flights/rental car.

Still, he was an amazing father. He taught us the value of hard work. He raised two kids who went on to be a doctor and a lawyer each. Most fathers work 40-50 hours/week and waste another 20-30 doing things that have nothing to do with their kids. You can work 60 hours/week as an attending and absolutely be a fantastic father, especially if you have money to save you additional time.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I never said it was. If you worked on your reading comprehension I’m addressing the comments of surgeons on here so blatantly choosing to spend barely any time with their family and thinking it’s not an issue cause surgery “isn’t a job it’s a lifestyle”. Lmbo it’s always great to start a family and then neglect it. 🙄

Ah. So you’re just a troll. Got it.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

The average surgeon works 60 hours and the avg FM doc works 50 (its easier and more possible to be efficient in FM - work 40 and make $300k). If a surgeon cut down to 40 hours they'd make around that much. Avg is currently $440k for 60 hours. Not to mention 2-3 years more of MUCH more difficult training. 2-3 years salary is a net $500k difference and another $60k in student loan interest

I am not sure it works that way.. There are notes that are done for 20-25 patients or more a day- in the corporate setting- with multiple different type of complaints rather than focused complaint. They schedule two patients in one time slot, most of the time- both show up- all are impatient. A lot of the time they have 3-5 patients all roomed at the same time. The complaints can range from simple allergies to managing very complex problems. The paperwork and notes takes a lot of time too, they do notes till late night so the 40-50 hours on paper is easily much more than that.

A surgeon would not be able to do a job of a family medicine doc. A family doc would not be able to do a job of a surgeon. Each unique- you just got to pick based on your personality and what you like. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

 

[ACSurgeon]

The average surgeon works 60 hours and the avg FM doc works 50 (its easier and more possible to be efficient in FM - work 40 and make $300k). If a surgeon cut down to 40 hours they'd make around that much. Avg is currently $440k for 60 hours. Not to mention 2-3 years more of MUCH more difficult training. 2-3 years salary is a net $500k difference and another $60k in student loan interest

most of the general surgeons I know are not working anywhere near 60 hours a week. And, those that push 60 hours of work in a busy practice will make WELL ABOVE 440k/year.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I always wondered how this would be if you accounted for hours worked. Obviously, within the ROAD specialties, there are outliers (I know multiple ophtho guys making over 7 figures working 4 days a week) but not including those. For example, the ortho guy definitely earns more on average than say derm or anesthesia but is it more a product of higher reimbursement or simply working more? Could be both, but it would be interesting to see how much each plays into it. All the data I've researched on it is so scattered it seems like none of it is accurate.

Regardless for me, it's much more about lifestyle than pay. I want to do ortho because it's my favorite thing in medicine, but it isn't my favorite thing in the world. I'd likely rather have a job I like and a lifestyle I love than a job I love and lifestyle I settled for. However, it seems like your lifestyle isn't even that bad as a PGY-1 so it definitely gives me more to think about.

I appreciate all the responses you've put in this thread!

You’re quoting outliers here. I know many ortho that make 7 figures. I also know a couple who make over $2 mil. These guys are outliers. On average, Ortho makes more than any ROAD specialists. Except for ophtho retina and neuro interventional radiologists. And those guys should, as they earn their money.

 

[Gilakend]

You’re quoting outliers here. I know many ortho that make 7 figures. I also know a couple who make over $2 mil. These guys are outliers. On average, Ortho makes more than any ROAD specialists. Except for ophtho retina and neuro interventional radiologists. And those guys should, as they earn their money.

I definitely agree with you. I guess my thought process was say a dermatologist is making 400k at 40 hrs a week and the ortho guy is making 600k at 60 hrs a week, then the actual compensation per hour worked was pretty even and the difference could be attributed to more hours worked on average rather than inherently higher compensation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

AAMC reports 59.2 hours. Explain?

What was the response rate and sample size?

 

[ACSurgeon]

AAMC reports 59.2 hours. Explain?

Not sure where they get their data from. Or maybe I have a very biased sample size. A few thoughts:

- maybe they’re counting hours on home call as worked hours, which even at a busy huge hospital I’m home most nights and the smaller community hospitals have very easy night call.

- academic surgeons are getting screwed for the first 15 years of the their careers. If I took the academic job, I was offered, I’d be making a lot less that what I’m currently making.

My observation of non-academic general surgery is
A- you work at a smaller hospital with very easy call nights from home and even a busy surgeon is done by 3-4 pm most days (read: most small community hospitals struggle to staff the OR after 3 pm).

B- you work at a busy large community hospital with the call being spread over 8+ surgeons or you have a a dedicated acute care surgery team that takes the entire call burden thus allowing the “elective” surgeons to have a very sweet gig.

I don’t know much about rural surgery. However, our outlying smaller hospitals seem to have a very low threshold to send anything to us that is remotely challenging at night. So, doesn’t seem so bad.

The surgeons that I knew who were workaholics (doing their own breast biopsies, colonoscopies, etc etc) were rumored to be making a million per year plus. Obviously I can’t verify that, but that’s a dying breed anyways. Most surgeons now are focused on one area and utilize radiology/GI/others for the smaller procedures.

YMMV.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I definitely agree with you. I guess my thought process was say a dermatologist is making 400k at 40 hrs a week and the ortho guy is making 600k at 60 hrs a week, then the actual compensation per hour worked was pretty even and the difference could be attributed to more hours worked on average rather than inherently higher compensation.

I think the point here is that you can make a lot of money doing either ROAD or Ortho if you work hard enough. You should do what you enjoy.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

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I’m not going to do your work for you. When you bring something as evidence, the characteristics of that data matter.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

AAMC already did the work lol. Other specialties hours/salary seem spot on from what plenty of attendings at my school told us they make (both PP and academia). So I'm going to go with the info they have for gensurg

None of that answers my questions.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Was this a program that has a ton of non-categorical spots or something? I just have never come across a program with 3 categorical interns (out of maybe 6 total) that puts them on the same service. Would be new to me.

Maybe all I (and those that I know at other programs) know is abuse haha but I've never even heard of any service having 3 interns much less 2. Maybe 2 juniors, sure. Or say an intern and clinical PGY3. Then, yes of course there's some rotating that goes on and not everybody is staying late. But my point earlier was that my experience has been even "on time" is after 6pm and that is more the norm. Doesn't have to mean staying until 9pm, but certainly is not home BY 5pm.

I’m never on a service with another categorical surgery resident. It’s always a prelim or off service.

Home BY 5 is more rare, home BY 6 is not. Yes there is service fluctuation.

 

[ACSurgeon]

AAMC already did the work lol. Other specialties hours/salary seem spot on from what plenty of attendings at my school told us they make (both PP and academia). So I'm going to go with the info they have for gensurg

You do that. Regional variation can be huge.

 

[Lawpy]

Lmbo you go ahead and do that. Just make sure your family isn’t a side show to your career. They deserve better than that. No point in having a family when you barely even see them. It’s embarrassing seeing so many people build families just to neglect them and make their wives or husbands married single parents and their kids being ignored and deprived of an active parent like they deserve. Super selfish. Makes no sense.

Maybe i’m badly sleep deprived but i keep struggling to know what lmbo even means

 

[chapulin colorado]

I’m never on a service with another categorical surgery resident. It’s always a prelim or off service.

Home BY 5 is more rare, home BY 6 is not. Yes there is service fluctuation.

Right. And if the program does not have prelims... that changes the game quite a bit, especially when the person I quoted mentioned rotating on gen surg with 3 interns.

My experience is almost entirely with programs that have no prelims. Most services have a junior and senior resident (never 2 interns), senior resident operates more / scrubs for the more complicated cases, junior holds the pager, scrubs when they can, typically signs out. *Some* rotations, like a busy transplant service, might have 3 residents on: a clinical pgy5, a 3, and an intern (but again, no more than 1 intern).

 

[greatnt249]

Maybe i’m badly sleep deprived but i keep struggling to know what lmbo even means

My guess is it's the same as "LMAO" but with a less "salty" version of what "A" would be.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Right. And if the program does not have prelims... that changes the game quite a bit, especially when the person I quoted mentioned rotating on gen surg with 3 interns.

Def includes prelims. The interns rotated sign out and OR days so every intern went to the OR at least once or twice a week.

 

[Neopolymath]

there is nuance to it. We don’t do shift change/sign out until 6pm either. A lot of services have 2 interns because of the clinical load, so we often alternate who has to stay for sign out.

Don’t get me wrong, it isn’t “cushy” by any stretch. Last night I worked until the wee hours of the morning helping with an emergent case and came back at 6 this morning. I’m just saying that this idea that surgeons are always in the hospital working 100+ hours a week isn’t necessarily true at a lot of programs anymore.


Eh kinda, but not really. Ortho consistently has one of the highest median salaries at any career stage. Sure you “can” make more on a ROAD specialty, but in average the gen ortho is going to always come out ahead.

This isn’t even getting into Spine or Joints

And that doesn't take into account ASC ownership shares and other business ventures that aren't available to anesthesia these days. Ortho is making more than just the already high mgma salary.

 

[Neopolymath]

I never said it was. If you worked on your reading comprehension I’m addressing the comments of surgeons on here so blatantly choosing to spend barely any time with their family and thinking it’s not an issue cause surgery “isn’t a job it’s a lifestyle”. Lmbo it’s always great to start a family and then neglect it. 🙄

It appears you know nothing about being married, a parent, or the reason surgery training is the way it is. That's an impressive hattrick in just one thread lol.

 

[Neopolymath]

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Who uses AAMC salary data ???

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This went off the rails wonderfully. Let's summarize the important points:

GS residency will likely, on average, require more hours than non-procedural specialties but doesn't have to be 80+ hours every single week for 5+ years. This will vary by program to various degrees.

GS career will likely, on average, require more hours than non-procedural specialties but there is both significant variation and personal preference. You don't have to work 60 hours/week for your whole career if you don't want to.

You can be a good parent and have a job that requires a decent bit of work. Working long hours by itself doesn't make anyone a bad parent. Its what you do with the family time you have that dictates that.

Family medicine is still the best specialty out there so this is all moot anyway.

 

[Lem0nz]

This went off the rails wonderfully. Let's summarize the important points:

GS residency will likely, on average, require more hours than non-procedural specialties but doesn't have to be 80+ hours every single week for 5+ years. This will vary by program to various degrees.

GS career will likely, on average, require more hours than non-procedural specialties but there is both significant variation and personal preference. You don't have to work 60 hours/week for your whole career if you don't want to.

You can be a good parent and have a job that requires a decent bit of work. Working long hours by itself doesn't make anyone a bad parent. Its what you do with the family time you have that dictates that.

Family medicine is still the best specialty out there so this is all moot anyway.

He's not wrong.

Advice given to me by other surgeons, and given now by me to potential future surgeons - only pick surgery if you hate everything else. No one loves surgery. You may really like surgery, but you don't love it. You love food, sleep, and sex - not necessarily in that order. Pick whatever you can tolerate that you like that gives you the most time to do the things you love.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

He's not wrong.

Advice given to me by other surgeons, and given now by me to potential future surgeons - only pick surgery if you hate everything else. No one loves surgery. You may really like surgery, but you don't love it. You love food, sleep, and sex - not necessarily in that order. Pick whatever you can tolerate that you like that gives you the most time to do the things you love.

Lol I love these grand sweeping assumptions that get made about everyone in a field, not to mention people in general.

 

[CuriousMDStudent]

After reading through these 2 pages of responses, I no offense still feel confused. There are so many differing opinions on how tough the life of a surgeon is. Some saying it's doable. Others saying you need to sacrifice time with your family.

My mentors seem to have a good work life balance. So I think my plan will be to go into my surgery rotation and see how it is. See how I fit it in. And then I'll decide. Thanks for all the responses everybody!

 

[Neopolymath]

After reading through these 2 pages of responses, I no offense still feel confused. There are so many differing opinions on how tough the life of a surgeon is. Some saying it's doable. Others saying you need to sacrifice time with your family.

My mentors seem to have a good work life balance. So I think my plan will be to go into my surgery rotation and see how it is. See how I fit it in. And then I'll decide. Thanks for all the responses everybody!

So here's the thing. It IS doable and you WILL sacrifice time with your family (or whatever else you were doing). The gray area is how much and to what effect. Every specialty choice is a leap of faith and you will always question it to some tiny degree at minimum. Just keep an open mind. You have a long way to go.

 

[CuriousMDStudent]

So here's the thing. It IS doable and you WILL sacrifice time with your family (or whatever else you were doing). The gray area is how much and to what effect. Every specialty choice is a leap of faith and you will always question it to some tiny degree at minimum. Just keep an open mind. You have a long way to go.

Yeah for sure. I am crossing my fingers that it all comes to light with third year. I have prepared myself for ortho so far. But I am open to everything. I hope I figure it out in good time.

 

[Neopolymath]

Yeah for sure. I am crossing my fingers that it all comes to light with third year. I have prepared myself for ortho so far. But I am open to everything. I hope I figure it out in good time.

You seem introspective in a good way. You will do well. You took the best strategy in preparing for the most competitive path. It will give you the option to pursue whatever you want. If you don't know yourself well or don't have great exposure to the true day to day practice of many specifialties then you will likely change your mind a few times. Just don't force anything and it will work out. The people that are happy recognize their feelings about the day to day of specialties and then make sure it lines up with their personal lives as well (pay, time off, flexibility, spousal support etc). After that, most people could be happy in several different specialties that check similar boxes at work and allow for what you need in your personal life as long as it meets that minimum threshold at home.