Holistically, I think Carib is only option. What do you think? Advice requested.

[YoshiD]

Hello, I am looking for some advise. I have combed through dozens and dozens of threads on SDN & reddit and did not see any that related closely to my situation, hence why I am posting here.

I am looking to apply to the Big 3 Carib schools for the January start date but I am a little concerned with even getting accepted into those.

My background:
Early 30's, male, caucasian
BA in Philosophy from a top-50 school with a whopping 2.3 cGPA
Spent a few years out West fighting wildfires on a Type 1 Hotshot crew as lead EMT
~200hrs volunteering
~4000+ hrs clinical experience: EMT/CNA/scribe during height of COVID/caregiver
0 hours of research
2 rock solid MD LOR from my scribing time
Just finishing pre-reqs now from a CC all while working full-time
Prereq GPA: 4.0
A's in OChem 1&2, GChem 1&2, Bio 1&2, Stats, Physics, Med Terminology. Will be able to get good LOR from any of these teachers.
489 MCAT (121/121/123/124)

Background on the background:

I was a ****head in undergrad but have had an upward trend since working out west. When I started this 'journey' I did not approach it in the best way. For some odd reason, I took the MCAT before taking OChem/GChem/Physics/Biology. So the 489 is literally me signing up and self studying for a month. Plus I was 30 minutes late because someone was literally shot outside the testing center and the police cordoned off the area of entrance.

As mentioned, I am finishing up with a 4.0 in my pre-reqs all the while working full-time. It was not easy, by any means. I live in a major city and I am most certainly not swimming in the money. Each CC course puts me out a grand on top of paying a grand in rent for a studio each month. Recently had to go on food stamps but, chugging along.

Although I am always strapped for cash, my situation is a little odd. My grandpa, who is now diseased, started a 529 ages ago and now the value is up to 350K. Although I cannot use it for prereqs, I'll be able to for med school. The beneficiary being any one of his 102 grandchildren (yes, you read that right) who have been accepted into medical school, US or abroad. I'm the 98th grandkid and no one was/is/will be interested in ed school, besides me. So if all doesn't work in the Carib, I'm not out a cent. Just time.

I know, now having taken my prerequisites, that I could do far better on the MCAT then I did before. I would be very confident, with enough time, I could get above 500. I am a good test taker. The problem is time and money. The hours at my job are going to start shrinking rapidly in August. That is why I am shooting for the January acceptance. If I had to take more time, and apply later, it would be a struggle. I'm not sure if I'd be able to give studying for the MCAT all my attention, or any attention at all.

Conclusion:

If you've made it this far, thank you very much. With the Big 3 claiming to take each applicant holistically, is it realistic to think I could get in for January (usually the easiest time to get in) based off my background? I have been told, personally, by Big 3 Carib grads, whom I have worked for, that they think I could succeed there based off my work ethic. (means little in grand scheme, but gives confidence) I did the calculations and to get above a 3.0 cGPA, I'd have to take courses full-time for the next 3.5 years with perfect 4.0 grades. No USMD and only a handful of DO's would consider me till then. And continuing another 3.5 years, on the 6 I've already invested into this 'journey,' living the stagnant life I am living, financially, I don't think I'd make it. I am already stealing toilet paper from public bathrooms and napkins from restaurants. That is why I think the Carib is my only option. And if I have assessed objectively enough, might not be a bad one given my circumstance. Specifically that if I go to the Carib and drop, I will not have a penny of debt.

What do you think?

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[DrStephenStrange]

Retake that MCAT and aim for at least a 505. Then apply broadly to almost all DO schools and Masters programs with linkage (as plan B) for reinvention. If that doesn’t work out, then I’d think about going to the Carribean as a last resort. Although, I am not and will never be a fan of Carribean schools due to their very poor outcomes even after making it through and graduating.

 

[Rapsidy]

Do not go. Retake the MCAT you have clearly demonstrated that you have the ability to do much better than you did. Then apply broadly to DO or even MD state school depending on your MCAT. Your reinvention is strong and you would be throwing away money and time on a huge gamble going Caribbean.

 

[LunaOri]

Ask to meet with someone in the Admissions office of your state medical school. Discuss this with them and get advice from someone who knows the admissions process. I agree with the above posters that if you were to do well on the MCAT, you might have a shot at MD or DO, especially if you were able to do an SMP.

 

[shadowblade]

Re-write the MCAT and prove you can score higher. If you do well, try applying broadly to DO schools.

The MCAT is only $330, far cheaper than hundreds of thousands of debt you can land yourself in at a Caribbean school.

As a Caribbean grad now practicing, I cannot recommend Caribbean schools except as a last resort.

I have seen too many fail due to the abysmal support systems at these schools. Almost everyone who did well were excellent test takers.

 

[PikminOC]

Re-write the MCAT and prove you can score higher. If you do well, try applying broadly to DO schools.

The MCAT is only $330, far cheaper than hundreds of thousands of debt you can land yourself in at a Caribbean school.

As a Caribbean grad now practicing, I cannot recommend Caribbean schools except as a last resort.

I have seen too many fail due to the abysmal support systems at these schools. Almost everyone who did well were excellent test takers.

I don't think he will be in debt as the 529 will cover him.

 

[gyngyn]

I don't think he will be in debt as the 529 will cover him.

Other important things would be lost.

 

[PikminOC]

Other important things would be lost.

It's difficult even for DO students to get rotations as many have to set them up themselves too

 

[shadowblade]

It's difficult even for DO students to get rotations as many have to set them up themselves too

Yeah its more than just debt.

Incredibly hard to get a decent rotation in any specialty outside of primary care as IMG. Especially at Caribbean schools who have no access to VSLO.

I was fortunate to match and complete residency into a large university program, but that was mostly due to my USMLE scores and little to do with my school.

 

[gyngyn]

It's difficult even for DO students to get rotations as many have to set them up themselves too

The difference is that DO's will get a degree and match.
About half of the matriculants at Caribbean schools never graduate and a significant subset of those who graduate never match.

 

[Highlander455]

About half of the matriculants at Caribbean schools never graduate and a significant subset of those who graduate never match.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but a) do you have any hard data to support these statistics, as I don't believe either the NRMP or the schools themselves release this data (the NRMP does not break down IMG match rates into Carribean schools as I recall), and; b) I question whether this is equally true for the big 3 which all report match rates in the 90s for those who do graduate. Thoughts?

 

[PikminOC]

The difference is that DO's will get a degree and match.
About half of the matriculants at Caribbean schools never graduate and a significant subset of those who graduate never match.

So all the unmatched are carib grads? Citation pls.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm not disagreeing with this, but a) do you have any hard data to support these statistics, as I don't believe either the NRMP or the schools themselves release this data (the NRMP does not break down IMG match rates into Carribean schools as I recall), and; b) I question whether this is equally true for the big 3 which all report match rates in the 90s for those who do graduate. Thoughts?

Some years ago, I added up the number of matriculants and compared them to graduates with the help of students at the schools as well as what little verifiable data could be gleaned from graduation photos and Match reports. The three "better" schools seemed to have grad rates around half of matriculants. As these were established schools, we can assume steady state. It was at the conclusion of this laborious process that I concluded an abysmal ROI for the Caribbean schools.

In addition, schools that have been investigated (including "better" schools) confirm grad rates around 50-60%.

I'll have to go back to some old posts to find it. @gonnif probably has it closer to hand than I do.

 

[FlaringRaynauds]

If you will improve your MCAT score you stand a very good chance at matriculating stateside. If you are not willing to make a solid commitment to studying for the MCAT and raising your score then your commitment to being successful in the Carribean is certainly in question and for anywhere else for that matter. Get Uworld, anki and Altius. Study like hell for 10-12 weeks and improve your MCAT score.

 

[gyngyn]

Citation pls.

These schools would never voluntarily allow their data to be released! MD and DO schools are evaluated by third parties to verify outcomes.
For these places, we need to use data from lawsuits, mostly.

 

[PikminOC]

These schools would never voluntarily allow their data to be released! MD and DO schools are evaluated by third parties to verify outcomes.
For these places, we need to use data from lawsuits, mostly.

Would it be the school releasing it or ERAS? People get cut from these for profit DO schools too

 

[gyngyn]

Would it be the school releasing it or ERAS? People get cut from these for profit DO schools too

Only the schools know who graduated...or who was eligible for the match (and got no interviews).
I can tell you that there are PA students with an MD degree from Ross. There are plenty of folks teaching for MCAT review companies with MDs from the Caribbean. Those folks with such degrees are filling lab tech positions as well. If I hadn't been asked for advice from these folks, I wouldn't have known that they had graduated from a Caribbean school and tried three (or more ) times to match.

 

[Highlander455]

I'll have to go back to some old posts to find it. @gonnif probably has it closer to hand than I do.

Thanks. I'd be interested in seeing your calculations if you can find them. I suspect you're not far off based on what I've heard anecdotally from Caribbean grads and current students about attrition.

Do you think the posted match rates from the big 3 are accurate for those who do get through? I believe they are subject to to audit and required to be reported for accreditation and funding purposes?

 

[gyngyn]

Do you think the posted match rates from the big 3 are accurate for those who do get through? I believe they are subject to to audit and required to be reported for accreditation and funding purposes?

Do you know who audits them? ...or the standards to which they are held?

 

[Highlander455]

Do you know who audits them? ...or the standards to which they are held?

US Department of Education, Federal Student Aid requires foreign medical schools who receive FSA to submit an annual audit. This should be pretty reliable.

"A foreign graduate medical school must obtain at its own expense and submit data to the Department on:

pass rates on the USMLE;

citizenship rates;

completion rates; and

median and mean student debt level.

A foreign graduate medical school must obtain at its own expense and submit data to its accrediting body, and to the Department upon request, on:

MCAT scores; and

placements in U.S. residency medical programs.

Foreign graduate medical schools must submit this information by April 30 following the end of each calendar year."

 

[gyngyn]

US Department of Education, Federal Student Aid requires foreign medical schools who receive FSA to submit an annual audit. This should be pretty reliable.

"A foreign graduate medical school must obtain at its own expense and submit data to the Department on:

pass rates on the USMLE;

citizenship rates;

completion rates; and

median and mean student debt level.

A foreign graduate medical school must obtain at its own expense and submit data to its accrediting body, and to the Department upon request, on:

MCAT scores; and

placements in U.S. residency medical programs.

Foreign graduate medical schools must submit this information by April 30 following the end of each calendar year."

I have never seen one of these reports. Have you?
And yet, reports on my school are available annually...to the public.

 

[Highlander455]

I have never seen one of these reports. Have you?
And yet, reports on my school are available annually...to the public.

I have not, and I just spent over an hour searching for them. I just wrote FSA to inquire how they may be accessed. Will let you know what I learn.

 

[xffan624]

This was posted on reddit. Obviously I can't verify its accuracy, but it's a breakdown of one cohort of students from AUC (one of the better Caribbean schools). It also doesn't reflect which residencies are deadend 1-year preliminary positions in the students that matched.

 

[Highlander455]

This was posted on reddit. Obviously I can't verify its accuracy, but it's a breakdown of one cohort of students from AUC (one of the better Caribbean schools). It also doesn't reflect which residencies are deadend 1-year preliminary positions in the students that matched.

Wow! Someone went to a lot of effort to calculate this! Numbers seem pretty close to what I've heard anecdotally about their attrition, and about spot on for their self reported match rate. This is actually pretty impressive when you consider that this cohort likely started in 2017 and therefore many had their studies interrupted by Hurricane Irma and the school's relocation to England for a period. Thanks for posting.

 

[gyngyn]

Wow! Someone went to a lot of effort to calculate this! Numbers seem pretty close to what I've heard anecdotally about their attrition, and about spot on for their self reported match rate. This is actually pretty impressive when you consider that this cohort likely started in 2017 and therefore many had their studies interrupted by Hurricane Irma and the school's relocation to England for a period. Thanks for posting.

Let us know if the Fed's data agree!

 

[gonnif]

Some years ago, I added up the number of matriculants and compared them to graduates with the help of students at the schools as well as what little verifiable data could be gleaned from graduation photos and Match reports. The three "better" schools seemed to have grad rates around half of matriculants. As these were established schools, we can assume steady state. It was at the conclusion of this laborious process that I concluded an abysmal ROI for the Caribbean schools.

In addition, schools that have been investigated (including "better" schools) confirm grad rates around 50-60%.

I'll have to go back to some old posts to find it. @gonnif probably has it closer to hand than I do.

The issue isnt that thousands of of students graduate and become practicing physicians each year, it is that thousands more DO NOT.

While I was on top of this issue for many years, most of my work is somewhat dated. Part of the reason is every time I gleaned numbers from any of the big 3/4 websites, and publish a detailed analysis, they would scrub the site of the numbers. The DOE reports sound great but are useless as they do not define attrition only completion. In US MD/DO schools, everyone, repeat everyone, who matriculates and enrolls and then leave for ANY reason counts as attrition. The attrition rate in US MD schools has been steady for decades at 3% with the majority leaving for non-academic reasons. I have no evidence to show that if matriculants leave a Caribbean School voluntarily or are encourage to withdraw, those numbers are counted.

I will give a very brief outline of an example with SGU of what I think is a more realistic model. They no longer give the demographic breakdown but currently they have about 7400 students in all programs that will eventually lead to MD. Some of these are pre-MD, so lets use 7,000 as the base number actually in medical school. Even though beginning classes would be larger than later classes, lets distribute this evenly so 1,750 a year. Additionally, previous demographic breakdowns showed 90% of the students were US citizens/PR. So approximately 1575 of students who start in year 1 are bound for US medical residencies. This year they reported just under 1,000 residents placed. So what happened to the other 600? mind you even if students took 5, 6, or 7 years to get MD, they will still show up for residency sooner or later. Even using SGU 86% graduation rate, that is still 350+ students unaccounted for. In the past SGU has reported between 25%-30% of residency were PLACEMENT (not match).

1575 US bound students start
1355 US bound students graduate (86%)
1000 get US residency
750 Match into residency
250 Place into residency.

So the "Success rate", that is starting first year, earning MD degree and getting ANY residency slot is 63%. Actually starting year 1, earning a degree and MATCHING is 47%. Remember, SGU is considered the best of the schools.

In US schools, graduation is 96%-97%. Getting into any residency via NRMP, Military, SOAP, contract, etc is in excess of 99%. Matching via NRMP is 94% with US seniors getting one of their first three choices 75% of the time.

And remember, even with these DOE audits, the schools take little financial risk in taking on students. The student gets a loan, the school gets the money and student, be a drop out, voluntarily leaves, or doesnt get a residency, has the debt

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

 

[Highlander455]

Let us know if the Fed's data agree!

First response from DOE, "With your specific inquiry, you will need to contact the school."

I pointed out in my reply that there is no guarantee that the school's info will be reliable, and that this is public information and should be available to the public. I inquired whether this information would be available through a Freedom of Information Act request. Awaiting a response. Will keep you posted.

 

[Emmet2301]

Wow! Someone went to a lot of effort to calculate this! Numbers seem pretty close to what I've heard anecdotally about their attrition, and about spot on for their self reported match rate. This is actually pretty impressive when you consider that this cohort likely started in 2017 and therefore many had their studies interrupted by Hurricane Irma and the school's relocation to England for a period. Thanks for posting.

I don't think the percentages are accurate tho.

 

[shadowblade]

If you want an anecdoctal report.

From my September Caribbean cohort our total match was 70.7% when including all initial matriculants (I tracked the data down to each individual person). Keep in mind that this includes people matching as long as 3 years after what would be a appropriate graduation date. E.g. 2017 grad matching in 2020

The largest amount of attrition occurs in the first semester. Another barrier is the comprehensive basic science exam (Exit exam) to get off the island and be able to take Step 1 to move on to clinicals.

For people who made it through to graduation without any USMLE failures, the match rate was basically 100%. A few did a prelim surgery and eventually ended up in something categorical e.g. family medicine, retried for gen surg, internal medicine.

These percentages continue to decline. More recent classes I’ve heard have been closer to 40-50%.

Additionally, Caribbean programs take students in January, May, and September traditionally. With September matriculants tending to have the highest match rates.

 

[Highlander455]

First response from DOE, "With your specific inquiry, you will need to contact the school."

I pointed out in my reply that there is no guarantee that the school's info will be reliable, and that this is public information and should be available to the public. I inquired whether this information would be available through a Freedom of Information Act request. Awaiting a response. Will keep you posted.

Update: So Federal Student Aid says they are a general information center and are limited to providing information they have available to them. They dont have information regarding compliance audits, hence their recommendation to contact the specific schools for this info. I have filed a FOIA request with the Department of Education. We'll see what, if anything, that brings. Will update when I get further info.

 

[shadowblade]

https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international#international-schools

The above link includes outdated disclosures from international schools to Federal Student Aid.

Here's what I've summarized for the "Big 4" Caribbean schools

Saba University reports 16% of US students on time graduation (with a inflated length of school time of 56 months) in 2022.
- 98.39% pass rate on step 1 and 99.06% on step 2 CK.

Ross University reports 56% of US students graduated the program on time in 2019 (with a respectable 160 week total program time, much better then Saba)
- 96.73% pass rate on step 1, and 96.86% on step 2 CK

St. George's reports 66.56% of US students graduated on time in 2022 (with a 4 year length, again a reasonable timeframe).
- With a 77.19% pass rate on Step 1 and 88.8% pass on step 2 CK

AUC reports 38.96% of US students graduated on time in 2022 (for a 48 month long program length).
- With a 76.47% pass rate on step 1, and 94.87% pass rate on step 2 CK

In conclusion, all of these schools have abysmal rates of graduating on time.
With Saba being by far with worst with not only the lowest rate, but also an inflated definition of what a normal graduation time is e.g. 56 months.

Saba and Ross are also clearly using stricter metrics to block students from taking step 1 or step 2 until they are certain they will pass.

They are all bad options, but SGU at least seems to give you reasonable odds of graduating on time.

 

[KatD]

All the schools listed are reporting 2022 stats but Ross is reporting 2019 stats. I looked on the Ross website and they report a five year cumulative Step 1 pass rate. Do you know the 2022 numbers for Ross?

 

[KatD]

https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international#international-schools

The above link includes outdated disclosures from international schools to Federal Student Aid.

Here's what I've summarized for the "Big 4" Caribbean schools

Saba University reports 16% of US students on time graduation (with a inflated length of school time of 56 months) in 2022.
- 98.39% pass rate on step 1 and 99.06% on step 2 CK.

Ross University reports 56% of US students graduated the program on time in 2019 (with a respectable 160 week total program time, much better then Saba)
- 96.73% pass rate on step 1, and 96.86% on step 2 CK

St. George's reports 66.56% of US students graduated on time in 2022 (with a 4 year length, again a reasonable timeframe).
- With a 77.19% pass rate on Step 1 and 88.8% pass on step 2 CK

AUC reports 38.96% of US students graduated on time in 2022 (for a 48 month long program length).
- With a 76.47% pass rate on step 1, and 94.87% pass rate on step 2 CK

In conclusion, all of these schools have abysmal rates of graduating on time.
With Saba being by far with worst with not only the lowest rate, but also an inflated definition of what a normal graduation time is e.g. 56 months.

Saba and Ross are also clearly using stricter metrics to block students from taking step 1 or step 2 until they are certain they will pass.

They are all bad options, but SGU at least seems to give you reasonable odds of graduating on time.

Surprisingly, Ross 2022 data is now reported on the Federal Student Aid web-site:
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international#international-schools

Ross University 2022: I was stunned when I saw that only 15.95% of Ross’s US students graduated the program on time in 2022.

A drop from 56% in 2019 to 15.95% in 2022 is significant.

The 2022 data for Ross Step pass rates:
81.22% pass rate on Step 1
93.91% pass rate on Step 2

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Surprisingly, Ross 2022 data is now reported on the Federal Student Aid web-site:
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international#international-schools

Ross University 2022: I was stunned when I saw that only 15.95% of Ross’s US students graduated the program on time in 2022.

A drop from 56% in 2019 to 15.95% in 2022 is significant.

The 2022 data for Ross Step pass rates:
81.22% pass rate on Step 1
93.91% pass rate on Step 2

Increased number of DO schools potentially means lower caliber students heading to the Caribbean schools. Which could explain this.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Hurricaine was 2019, devastated the island and school. That's likely a large part of this - I expect that disrupted an entire class or two's timeline.

 

[Highlander455]

Hurricaine was 2019, devastated the island and school. That's likely a large part of this - I expect that disrupted an entire class or two's timeline.

Actually, Irma was 2017, which would certainly delay normally scheduled grad in 2021. Plus, as I recall, they were having classes on a barge, and then school moved to Barbados.

 

[KatD]

Actually, Irma was 2017, which would certainly delay normally scheduled grad in 2021. Plus, as I recall, they were having classes on a barge, and then school moved to Barbados.

I remember when the hurricane hit Dominica.

Hurricane Maria hit Ross University on Dominica on September 18, 2017. Ross decided to continue the semester on a cruise ship off the island of St. Kitts where their vet school is located.

According to Ross’s Wiki page: In November 2017, Ross University School of Medicine relocated temporarily to Knoxville, Tennessee, for continuation of medical school classes at Lincoln Memorial University (LMU).

Ross University School of Medicine permanently relocated to Barbados on January 5, 2019.

The January 2018 class would have started in Tennessee. I don’t see how hurricane Maria, in 2017, would have caused such a significant drop to 15.92% in the on-time graduation rate for 2022.

I think DrStevenStrange's explanation of lower caliber students, because of the increase in DO schools, is a better explanation for the drop in Ross's US student on-time graduation rate.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Thanks for the correction on the timing. The reported statistic appears to be the # completing on time / # completing in 2022. Anyone who was a first year student in the 2017-18 cohort would have expected to grduate 4 years later - 20-21. If they decided to take a gap year instead of continuing on the "cruise ship" (lots of stories about the conditions there), they would graduate in 2022. I believe at the time Ross didn't want people to take a year off (they wanted the tuition $$$$ for sure) so not sure how many this would have impacted.

But regardless, this can't explain all of it.

 

[S R K]

Surprisingly, Ross 2022 data is now reported on the Federal Student Aid web-site:
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international#international-schools

Ross University 2022: I was stunned when I saw that only 15.95% of Ross’s US students graduated the program on time in 2022.

A drop from 56% in 2019 to 15.95% in 2022 is significant.

The 2022 data for Ross Step pass rates:
81.22% pass rate on Step 1
93.91% pass rate on Step 2

COVID really screwed things up for a lot of my class at Ross (including me). Lots of us were kicked out of clerkships and were basically at home doing nothing or doing worthless online electives, which delayed graduation year for like half of my class. I was supposed to graduate in 2022 but I just graduated and matched earlier this year.

 

[KatD]

COVID really screwed things up for a lot of my class at Ross (including me). Lots of us were kicked out of clerkships and were basically at home doing nothing or doing worthless online electives, which delayed graduation year for like half of my class. I was supposed to graduate in 2022 but I just graduated and matched earlier this year.

Good point. To determine the effect of Covid on on-time graduation across the schools I went back to the 2019 US student on-time graduation rates on the FSA website and compared them to 2022. I expected similar on-time graduation rate declines across all the schools due to the Covid shutdowns, but there is greater variation than I expected.

SABA:
2019 - 75%
2022 - 16% (59-point drop)

ROSS:
2019 – 56%
2022 – 16% (40-point drop)

AUC:
2019 – 63%
2022 – 39% (24-point drop)

SGU:
2019 – 77%
2022 – 67% (10-point drop)

I think there are more variables causing the drop in US student on-time graduation than just Covid.

 

[stethan]

Good point. To determine the effect of Covid on on-time graduation across the schools I went back to the 2019 US student on-time graduation rates on the FSA website and compared them to 2022. I expected similar on-time graduation rate declines across all the schools due to the Covid shutdowns, but there is greater variation than I expected.

SABA:
2019 - 75%
2022 - 16% (59-point drop)

ROSS:
2019 – 56%
2022 – 16% (40-point drop)

AUC:
2019 – 63%
2022 – 39% (24-point drop)

SGU:
2019 – 77%
2022 – 67% (10-point drop)

I think there are more variables causing the drop in US student on-time graduation than just Covid.

Could it be anything related to student loans, considering all listed are Title IV eligible?

 

[Mr. Nevergiveup]

The issue isnt that thousands of of students graduate and become practicing physicians each year, it is that thousands more DO NOT.

While I was on top of this issue for many years, most of my work is somewhat dated. Part of the reason is every time I gleaned numbers from any of the big 3/4 websites, and publish a detailed analysis, they would scrub the site of the numbers. The DOE reports sound great but are useless as they do not define attrition only completion. In US MD/DO schools, everyone, repeat everyone, who matriculates and enrolls and then leave for ANY reason counts as attrition. The attrition rate in US MD schools has been steady for decades at 3% with the majority leaving for non-academic reasons. I have no evidence to show that if matriculants leave a Caribbean School voluntarily or are encourage to withdraw, those numbers are counted.

I will give a very brief outline of an example with SGU of what I think is a more realistic model. They no longer give the demographic breakdown but currently they have about 7400 students in all programs that will eventually lead to MD. Some of these are pre-MD, so lets use 7,000 as the base number actually in medical school. Even though beginning classes would be larger than later classes, lets distribute this evenly so 1,750 a year. Additionally, previous demographic breakdowns showed 90% of the students were US citizens/PR. So approximately 1575 of students who start in year 1 are bound for US medical residencies. This year they reported just under 1,000 residents placed. So what happened to the other 600? mind you even if students took 5, 6, or 7 years to get MD, they will still show up for residency sooner or later. Even using SGU 86% graduation rate, that is still 350+ students unaccounted for. In the past SGU has reported between 25%-30% of residency were PLACEMENT (not match).

1575 US bound students start
1355 US bound students graduate (86%)
1000 get US residency
750 Match into residency
250 Place into residency.

So the "Success rate", that is starting first year, earning MD degree and getting ANY residency slot is 63%. Actually starting year 1, earning a degree and MATCHING is 47%. Remember, SGU is considered the best of the schools.

In US schools, graduation is 96%-97%. Getting into any residency via NRMP, Military, SOAP, contract, etc is in excess of 99%. Matching via NRMP is 94% with US seniors getting one of their first three choices 75% of the time.

And remember, even with these DOE audits, the schools take little financial risk in taking on students. The student gets a loan, the school gets the money and student, be a drop out, voluntarily leaves, or doesnt get a residency, has the debt

as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

Can i Pm you? I'm hesitant on going