Harvard Vs. Michigan Vs. WashU Vs. Cleveland Clinic LCM WL

[smurf durf]

HMS (~120k debt)
Pros

• Its HMS, universal reach with the name
• Boston seems good for biotech, industry innovation (im interested in exploring this side of things as a side thing for research, NOT as primary career)
• Excellent specialty advising and insane match list (would help as I am interested in something competitive)
• PF clinical and preclin, and no Honors (no AOA? can someone confirm)
• Excellent research resources

Cons

• Boston is cold (but I am from a colder region so its not a shift for me)
• debt number is a little higher
• family is not very close by

Michigan (~40k or less debt if match WashU offer)
Pros

• Great culture and med students seem quite happy
• Strong name (not sure if HMS opens more doors?)
• family and friends in the area
• Great research (but not sure if HMS has more resources)
• Really like Ann Arbor

Cons

• Match rate this past year was not great
• Less resources for biotech/innovation
• Not PF clerkships, but at least are just compared to set standard now rather than to classmates

WashU (~70k or less debt)
Pros

• Strong name and match list (not sure if HMS opens more doors?)
• Great research (but not sure if HMS has more resources across specialty range)

Cons

• St Louis isnt the best city, not sure I like it much
• Culture could be a little competitive
• Has some level of grading for Clerkships (at least honors exists, I believe)
• Family is farther away

WL: CCLCM (likely 0 debt or very close to that)


Pros

• Strong name and match list (not sure if HMS opens more doors?)
• Great research, lots of funding and support specifically for this
• PF clinical and preclinical

Cons

• 5 years
• Lots of self driven studying for success (heard students are kind of independent for learning)
• Family is not very close by
• Dont know much about cleveland and opportunities for biotech/innovation

Summary: I have also an offer to Northwestern, but this seems more expensive so these other options would probably be better. The main point I guess is if Harvard is worth that extra cost I am paying to go there (as all of these are great schools). I am interested in going into something competitive, and I am not sure if HMS would really give an extra leg up compared to the other schools. In addition, I am not that interested in the moment of doing MBA, MPP, etc so mainly just clinical medicine as a career (although, not sure if HMS opens more doors to consult on the side as an attending, which I would be open to doing).

In addition, if there are external scholarships and opportunities to reduce debt burden at HMS while being there, I would be open and willing to work on that (so the debt number could potentially go down, but no guarantee).

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[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

Congrats on the cycle! Not much to add but you could serve as a resident tutor/proctor at Harvard College, which gives you free housing (undergrad dorms/houses) and a dining hall meal plan. Not sure if links are allowed but here’s more info Proctors and Tutors

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Depends on how much you prioritize competitive specialty and less stress. A lot of people are gonna say go with the cheapest option, and all of these med schools will give you a great education. However, in the grand scheme of things, 120k in debt is very payable and a lot lower than the national average. I know that this is very subjective and differs person to person. But if you're a doctor of any kind, you can pay that in 1-2 years. If you're going into a competitive high paying specialty, less than 1 year.
I'd go with Harvard on this one. Their match list is leaps and bounds above the others, and their students are less stressed throughout their years, too. I know it's not the only one with P/F clinical, but it's one of the few that can do that and still have that match list.

 

[smurf durf]

I also think that HMS is an ideal option given the small price difference, but I don't wholly agree with the stress portion, at least from my experience in talking with students at these places (admitted at HMS and WashU, know lots of people at CCLCM). It seems that there's way more of a push to publish at HMS, which leads to a research rat race (exact words from a Pathways student I talked with); the mandatory 8ams in pre-clinical are also extremely divisive, with people either loving or hating them. Match lists are a separate issue (and obviously no program is beating HMS placement into HMS residences due to home program bias alone), but you're not losing out on major opportunities within medicine. The big thing you're gaining is arguably laymen prestige, but hard to place a number value on that (and even in a vacuum, HMS for 120k is a good price).

Great point- I for one do not care at all about layman prestige. Its more about the resources and advising to match me into whatever specialty I want. I totally understand no school can guarantee me that, but if the resources present at HMS would give me a leg up, I think the price difference might be fine to assume. Obviously all of these institutions will set you up well, but I have heard the residency advising and resources for that at HMS are really exceptional -- not sure if that makes things worth it, or if you have heard that as well. The research rat race thing, I am not too sure about, as definitely i have talked to people that mentioned that. But, for others, its sort of non-issue.

 

[pablo213]

I would go with HMS w/ the proctor job mentioned for free housing/meals.

 

[Opuntia]

At HMS's revisit event, two students mentioned that they could "get away with a lot" because of the Harvard name. This made an overall negative impression on me, but tbh, I also took it to mean that they would do anything they could to help you match where you want to go.

 

[Bowel-Plumber]

I’m basing this on the thought that your costs you mentioned are total over 4 years and not per year (meaning Harvard is $120k total, etc):

I feel like the “It’s Harvard” argument to justify any debt difference doesn’t make sense when you’re comparing it to such high caliber schools. It’s also WashU, another crazy school. It’s Michigan, another crazy school, etc. If you were to compare high debt at Harvard to less debt at a school like University of Kansas (no offense Kansas) then yes obviously you can say “but it’s Harvard” and that’s a valid point.

Now that I got that off my chest, the debt difference doesn’t seem to be crazy. Especially if you can figure out this tutoring thing for food/housing. In that case, then I think you should choose Harvard but again my argument would be more so because the debt difference isn’t so large and you can make a strong argument for actually wanting to live in Boston vs St Louis or Cleveland rather than the fact that Harvard could really open so many more doors that these other schools can’t.

I honestly had a difficult time determining where it is you actually want to live. Each of these cities seemed to have a con for you so I think you should really factor that into your choice as all of these places will set you up for greatness

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I also think that HMS is an ideal option given the small price difference, but I don't wholly agree with the stress portion, at least from my experience in talking with students at these places (admitted at HMS and WashU, know lots of people at CCLCM). It seems that there's way more of a push to publish at HMS, which leads to a research rat race (exact words from a Pathways student I talked with); the mandatory 8ams in pre-clinical are also extremely divisive, with people either loving or hating them. Match lists are a separate issue (and obviously no program is beating HMS placement into HMS residences due to home program bias alone), but you're not losing out on major opportunities within medicine. The big thing you're gaining is arguably laymen prestige, but hard to place a number value on that (and even in a vacuum, HMS for 120k is a good price).

I don't mean to imply HMS students work less than other students on the school list, I just mean they work just as much (i doubt they have to work more) but with less stress--unless things changed, my friends at the uber elite schools that are P/F walked around with an air that elite programs (notably their home program) will favor them. Part of this is as compared to WashU and CCLC is that their research environment in Boston is second to none.

If I were to compare the other 3, Michigan, Washu, and Cleveland Clinic are also research powerhouses, as well as amazing clinical programs. Of the 3, Michigan might probably provide the best clinical education because they have an accelerated 1 year and the rest is just clinical rotations, and as a whole their residency programs are top notch. But I'd take this one out first, unless you have a very strong desire to be in Michigan. Another forum poster said they are switching to competency-based clinical grading, but that they have not switched to P/F means that their school is worried about their matching.

If distance from family is a concern, I'd go with Cleveland with the money, a good compromise between financial, proximity to family, and relative stress-free experience. But honestly, if I were sure about something competitive (note that this could change), I'd still go with HMS.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Congrats on the cycle! Not much to add but you could serve as a resident tutor/proctor at Harvard College, which gives you free housing (undergrad dorms/houses) and a dining hall meal plan. Not sure if links are allowed but here’s more info Proctors and Tutors

How common is this? I would imagine a ton of 1L's and M1's would try to do this (unless they were non-traditional applicants). I agree that unless you have had prior experience, you shouldn't be learning the ropes in this role.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I think that's an important distinction to make. I'm not sure what we're defining as uber elite (T10 with P/F clinicals?) But I've talked with ppl at a good chunk of those schools and you may have a little bit of insurance matching back to your home program, but if you're not hustling with pubs/Step early on, you won't have an easy time in the vast majority of specialties (possible exception of IM). Plus I don't think that's a situation unique to HMS when so many of the other T10 programs are also T10 in the same specialties. In talking with students, my impression is that the HMS research resources are great if you're seriously interested in an academic medicine career, but overkill in depth/breadth for most med students.

Re: clinicals, I also think that having P/F clinicals is an important consideration. However, I don't think that a school still having graded clinicals necessarily means they're worried about their students matching. Some schools have a culture (esp Michigan and formerly WashU) that a class should be stratified based on achievement. I don't think schools like Penn, Columbia, or Hopkins up until very recently are worried about their students matching. In that same vein, HMS isn't even full P/F, they still grade their sub-Is (some schools are P/F in sub-Is like WashU).

If I remember correctly, Penn was p/f clinical back in the day until they switched back, allegedly because the students also were asking for it. And the students were asking for it because they were worried about matching into competitive specialties. It's been a while since I've been in the thick of clinical grading, but from what I hear now that step 1 has gone p/f there is more pressure on clinical grades (for the schools that need it). I would be surprised if an institution actually were able to do it in a fair and standardized way if they heavily weight evals--you've all heard of the stories of people who game the system to get good clinical grades, and there is a huge amount of bias inherently in the evals. The positives of going to p/f are that it relieves a lot of stress for students IF they are able to go P/F, and that is a huge recruitment tool. Notice how in all the pros and cons for these threads, students put the p/f clinical in the pros? Also I'm not privy to what's going on, but looking at the match stats for UMich, their match rate last year was around the national average, under 94%. Anyone have insight on this?

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard the majority of HMS students get H in their subIs.

 

[smurf durf]

If I remember correctly, Penn was p/f clinical back in the day until they switched back, allegedly because the students also were asking for it. And the students were asking for it because they were worried about matching into competitive specialties. It's been a while since I've been in the thick of clinical grading, but from what I hear now that step 1 has gone p/f there is more pressure on clinical grades (for the schools that need it). I would be surprised if an institution actually were able to do it in a fair and standardized way if they heavily weight evals--you've all heard of the stories of people who game the system to get good clinical grades, and there is a huge amount of bias inherently in the evals. The positives of going to p/f are that it relieves a lot of stress for students IF they are able to go P/F, and that is a huge recruitment tool. Notice how in all the pros and cons for these threads, students put the p/f clinical in the pros? Also I'm not privy to what's going on, but looking at the match stats for UMich, their match rate last year was around the national average, under 94%. Anyone have insight on this?

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard the majority of HMS students get H in their subIs.

Yeah, I believe that the majority of HMS students receive Honors or High Pass in the SubIs. There is definitely a boost to having the clinical grades be PF, as HMS has the "name" to where they dont necessarily need to grade those to stratify students, from what I've heard. I'm not sure how true this is, but its the idea that you might be attractive to residency programs due to the name carrying intrinsic merit rather than showing all honors on rotations, or something. I'm not really sure about any of these things, its just things I've heard. Michigan's match rate was the main concern point for me, as I would be willing to pay a little bit more if it would prevent the odds of slipping through the cracks. I recently had a friend who was a superstar at a T5 just fall through the cracks in a competitive specialty, and I've heard that this just doesnt happen at HMS (I also would love for someone to add to this, not sure how true that is).

 

[smurf durf]

That's interesting re: Penn history of changing back and forth between graded/ungraded clinicals. I think we agree on the value of P/F clinicals and how they should be a key factor in decision making. My point was just that the ability to switch to P/F clinicals through school prestige isn't unique to HMS at the T10 level (WashU, etc).

Slipping through the cracks as in falling on their match list or not matching? That definitely still happens to HMS students, in talking with people. Michigan is like UDub or UCSF in that they have a dual mission of training high-powered future surgeons, as well as primary care docs that'll serve the local area (as opposed to HMS or Washu). That's likely reflected in their class profile/match outcomes, but I wouldn't worry about it.

not matching at all, and needing to SOAP which I was surprised by considering the strength of the candidate. Even michigan was only around 93.8 for matching on their rank list, remainder needing to SOAP. From what I've heard, this phenomenon is extremely rare or does not happen at all for those that have strong profiles coming from HMS. This is from what I hear partly due to advisors in intended specialty telling you if you are strong enough to apply or need X research year, Y opportunity, etc. (ofc, i understand that nobody is matching something hyper competitive with an initially failed step 1 and horrible step 2 score, even coming from HMS).

 

[Biochemist3412]

Hi, I was also deciding between a few schools last year, including HMS and WashU, feel free to pm me

 

[Egg-Benedict]

Based on your pro/con lists, I would say your decision should come down to how much you value being near family and friends + the Ann Arbor environment vs. P/F clinical. As an HMS grad with many friends who went to UMich and WashU, I promise you that other than laymen thinking it's cool, HMS isn't going to open doors that those schools won't.

Regarding P/F, I will say that the P/F did seem good to me because I didn't worry so much about how well I was going to do. But, in talking to my friends at UMich/Penn/etc., pretty much all of them have reported that they like the opportunity to distinguish themselves and didn't seem to think the grading introduced all that much stress. So, it seems like everyone likes what they have.

Another thing to consider is that, with P/F, residencies are going to place more weight on your research, LOR, etc. That could be good or bad, depending on your strengths and how good you are at making connections.

So, when I was applying, I thought P/F was a huge plus, but knowing what I know now, I would say I'm pretty neutral on it.

When I was applying, I was in an almost equivalent situation to you with HMS, UMich, and WashU, except my debt from HMS was higher than yours. If I could go back, I would certainly choose UMich. Even though your debt difference isn't as big as mine was, I would probably still choose UMich in your situation.

I know we've PMed about one aspect of HMS already, but feel free to PM me again if you have questions about any of this.