General Surgery 5 vs 7

[doctorstrangerthingz]

Hi All,


I have a lot of confusion regarding general surgery residencies. Can someone please help me understand:


1) Does going to a 5 vs. 7 year program matter if you want to do a fellowship?

2) Can you NOT do 2 years of research at a 7 year program? If it’s optional, would it hurt your chances if you do not express interest in research during interview at those programs?

3) Can you elected to do 1 instead of 2 years of research at 7 year program or elected to do an extra year of research at a 5 year program?

4) Do you have to do research in something you’ve already been working on or is it okay to pursue something else? A lot of times in med school you just go with what research you can get (not ideal but if you’re too picky you risk not being involved at all).

Thank you in advance. I know these are a lot.

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[deleted50541]

1) Research is going to depend on what fellowship you may be interested in. It never hurts to have for a fellowship application, but for specialties like peds surg and surg onc it's essentially a requirement. I went to a 5-year program, but took a year off for research. It was encouraged and about 2-3 people rotated in and out for research per year.

2) While I specifically avoided programs that had a research requirement, my understanding is that research time is built into your schedule if you're at a 7-year program. I don't think it's an option to not do it. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

3) You need to ask the programs you're looking at what options they offer for research. The program website may have answers or you can just call/email them.

4) You can absolutely do something else. If you have a specific career goal in mind, find out what research those in your field of interest are involved with. As a prospective CT surgery fellow, I did pulmonary basic science research. I also did outcomes research with trauma.

 

[doctorstrangerthingz]

1) Research is going to depend on what fellowship you may be interested in. It never hurts to have for a fellowship application, but for specialties like peds surg and surg onc it's essentially a requirement. I went to a 5-year program, but took a year off for research. It was encouraged and about 2-3 people rotated in and out for research per year.

2) While I specifically avoided programs that had a research requirement, my understanding is that research time is built into your schedule if you're at a 7-year program. I don't think it's an option to not do it. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

3) You need to ask the programs you're looking at what options they offer for research. The program website may have answers or you can just call/email them.

4) You can absolutely do something else. If you have a specific career goal in mind, find out what research those in your field of interest are involved with. As a prospective CT surgery fellow, I did pulmonary basic science research. I also did outcomes research with trauma.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond! You’ve been helpful!

 

[Apollyon]

Back when I was a resident (not in surgery), I was at Duke. While I was there, it was the first time that someone didn't have to do the 2 research years, but he brought a PhD with him. Now, there, of course, had been MD/PhDs in Duke Surgery before, so, I don't know what that guy did that others didn't.

One of my attendings had done Duke med school in 3 years. Since 1956, the third year has been research. He didn't have to do the research year, because he, also, brought a PhD with him.

So, they get their pound of flesh somewhere along the line.

 

[Lem0nz]

I think you have your answers. To add to it:

It is entirely program dependent but most programs advertised as 7 year programs will require the full seven and there’s no getting out of it.

There are programs where only a few people out of the class (like 2 of 5 if they take 5 a year) have research tracks and these are more ‘optional’. They can also be competitive to get inside of those residencies competing with your peers as there is limited funding and space.

There are programs that will let you do just one year.

Most programs that don’t specifically advertise research years and say they’re 5 year programs do not have an option to do any research. This is a staffing and funding issue and they can’t (or won’t) expand the number of residents in the program to accommodate someone essentially taking a year off to go to research because they aren’t built for that.

Peds surg and surg onc (and HPB) have de facto dedicated 2 year OR MORE research requirements. The other fellowships can generally all be obtained without dedicated research time, though the research time will help land a more competitive fellowship in the arena usually. Specifically, plastics, CT, and more recently colorectal have been more competitive and extra years have been helpful. Most abdominal wall, bariatrics, MIS, and trauma/CC/burn fellowships can be obtained with no dedicated research years (though they don’t hurt).

Lastly, no, there is no way to know which is which without asking. But it is not offensive or a negative mark to ask. Simply say you’re interested in knowing what the availability and possible requirements are for dedicated research years and they will all readily tell you.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Most has been covered, but to add:

If it's a 7 year program, go in expecting to do 2 years. There can be exceptions, but they are very specific and unlikely you will get a guarantee on being able to omit/reduce the time. Usually what happens is that because of complement changes (transfers out, someone does 3 years of research, etc.) programs may need someone to go "straight through" or come out early. However that is almost never predictable, so it would be a mistake to count on that. And those concessions usually do go to people like MD/PhDs who have less "need" for the research time.

As for what you can do, that has evolved substantially at many places. These programs have stopped calling it "research time" and instead refer to it as "academic development time". That being said, they will expect a structured plan about what you're going to be doing. Picking a lab (whether basic science or health services research) is still the path of least resistance. But people have done things like global health, education, MBA, etc.

 

[Smurfette]

I was at a 5 yr program but you could do research (1 or 2 years) if you wanted. Or do a critical care year partway through (can do after PGY3 and get SCC board eligible; you get officially certified once you pass the surgery boards at the end). We usually had 2-3 people in the lab every year IIRC.

The main thing at a "research optional" program is that the number of residents doing a clinical year has to stay the same. So if 2 residents are coming out of the lab and going back in as PGY3s, 2 residents in the graduating PGY2 class (i.e. rising PGY3s) have to go INTO the lab so there aren't too many people in that class. And if no one volunteers, people get forced into the lab.