Fencer's corner

[Fencer]

So, this is now my thread... for questions, concerns and issues about the MD/PhD application cycle. It will be the only thread where I will be posting information, so subscribe for updates.

Hello everybody.... I just came back from really needed vacation overseas and I still have some jet lag. Now, I am attending now our national meeting of MD/PhD programs.

People have been asking about how the 2023 MD/PhD application cycle looks like, well... pretty much just as in 2022. We are barely up by 2% or so, but down ~12% as compared to 2021. The stats of the applications look just as prior years. This is a dead week for most programs as program leadership meets in our annual meeting. I will post more info (likely until Monday) as I digest conversations with colleagues and see what others are innovating... One of keynote speakers is the deputy NIH director, Mike Lauer.... we will have a back-and-forth discussion regarding the Age to 1st R01 and other topics.

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[Fencer]

For the 2023 MD/PhD admissions cycle, we currently have:

1638 applicants
3.74 mean cGPA
514 mean MCAT

The number of applicants is about 2% higher than 2022 cycle, but about 13% lower than 2021 cycle.

As per traffic rules, schools/programs can start providing MD/PhD and MD acceptances as early as October 15.

After speaking with many of my colleagues at our national meeting, I believe that programs have extended between 50% and 90% of interviewing slots. There might be an early completer program that has already chosen their interviewees. My program hasn't.... We still have close to 50% of interviewing slots NOT chosen. Our strategy, which I shared with other leaders, has been to review candidates and place them in 4 baskets: Likely, High Hold, Hold and Reject. As we receive applications, they get reviewed and within a couple of weeks, they are now sorted. Every month, we reviewed the Likely and High Hold groups to select candidates for next round of interviews. We plan to interview at least monthly until early February. We have 3 major groups of acceptances, and once the class contracts in size in April, we offer additional acceptances.

 

[mdphd?]

After speaking with many of my colleagues at our national meeting, I believe that programs have extended between 50% and 90% of interviewing slots. There might be an early completer program that has already chosen their interviewees. My program hasn't.... We still have close to 50% of interviewing slots NOT chosen.

Thank you for the update.

While I am glad to hear your program has 50% of slots remaining to be filled, I am admittedly shocked to learn of the 90% figure. I figured most places would be hovering around 50% at this time.

A question - if you “averaged” (acknowledging this is a poor estimator) yours and your colleagues program’s extended interview invitations, would it be down the middle 70% or skewed towards the 50% mark?

 

[Fencer]

My imprecise PD estimator would be around 2/3 of the interview slots. At the meeting, we made a plug for sending interview and revisit days to the program administrator who provides us with this service: National MD/PhD Interview Calendar
The calendar might be helpful as generally speaking, programs still invite applicants 4-6 weeks prior to interview date. Some programs complete interviews early and some start interviewing really late. While a single interview (and acceptance) is all you need, given that the majority of programs have 5-12 slots, an applicant in early October should aim for 3 or more invites to interview. It was interesting to learn that about 40% of MD/PhD matriculants only received a single acceptance. Adding selected programs with late interviews might be useful for some of you.
PM me if needed.

 

[NALOL>>EU]

My imprecise PD estimator would be around 2/3 of the interview slots. At the meeting, we made a plug for sending interview and revisit days to the program administrator who provides us with this service: National MD/PhD Interview Calendar
The calendar might be helpful as generally speaking, programs still invite applicants 4-6 weeks prior to interview date. Some programs complete interviews early and some start interviewing really late. While a single interview (and acceptance) is all you need, given that the majority of programs have 5-12 slots, an applicant in early October should aim for 3 or more invites to interview. It was interesting to learn that about 40% of MD/PhD matriculants only received a single acceptance. Adding selected programs with late interviews might be useful for some of you.
PM me if needed.

Oops-- for someone who submitted relatively late but haven't received any interview invites (mid-august to september for completion dates), does that mean it is already the time to start worrying? Or it would make sense to follow the same timeline as MD, by the so-called turkey day rule and worry after Nov 24th?

Sorry for being neurotic here, just want to have a little bit idea of the timeline.

 

[Fencer]

As I often I have indicated different schools have different patterns of admission practices. Furthermore, they can change.... we used to start in Aug. our interviews, and this year, we changed to start interviewing in Sep. Place in a spreadsheet all of your schools, check the google calendar and see when each of the last TWO interview dates are. Four to six weeks prior is their latest decision time to select interviewees.

Call the program coordinators and ask about the status of your application and whether you are able to send an email of interest. Be deliberate on your email and include 3-5 potential mentors (-mentors who currently train students or have trained MD/PhD graduates, check out their publications (pubmed.gov) AND their funding (nih reporter).

 

[StandardOil]

Thanks for the updates Fencer! Just a quick question, when you say 2/3rds, is that your estimation for how many interview slots have been extended or how many are yet to be extended?

 

[thr1932359]

Thanks for the updates Fencer! Just a quick question, when you say 2/3rds, is that your estimation for how many interview slots have been extended or how many are yet to be extended?

I take it to mean that roughly 2/3rd of the slots have already been extended if you averaged every program together, and that there are some MD-PhD programs that have extended less than 1/2 of their total invitations and some that are more or less done inviting students to interview. Based on this context clue from the comment he replied to:

A question - if you “averaged” (acknowledging this is a poor estimator) yours and your colleagues program’s extended interview invitations, would it be down the middle 70% or skewed towards the 50% mark?

 

[mdphd?]

^^ I have edited my Q to reflect that A 😂

 

[MCAT_IS_ROUGH]

As I often I have indicated different schools have different patterns of admission practices. Furthermore, they can change.... we used to start in Aug. our interviews, and this year, we changed to start interviewing in Sep. Place in a spreadsheet all of your schools, check the google calendar and see when each of the last TWO interview dates are. Four to six weeks prior is their latest decision time to select interviewees.

Call the program coordinators and ask about the status of your application and whether you are able to send an email of interest. Be deliberate on your email and include 3-5 potential mentors (-mentors who currently train students or have trained MD/PhD graduates, check out their publications (pubmed.gov) AND their funding (nih reporter).

Thanks for having this space to answer all the questions!

Call the program coordinators and ask about the status of your application and whether you are able to send an email of interest. Be deliberate on your email and include 3-5 potential mentors (-mentors who currently train students or have trained MD/PhD graduates, check out their publications (pubmed.gov) AND their funding (nih reporter).

In terms of calling programs directly, is that actually a good idea? I've heard mixed answers about calling the admissions office on SDN, and many adcom seems to oppose people calling. It sounds like it can show the program your interest, but also bears the risk of annoying them (if everyone is calling them just to check in). I guess it would be program specific? What's your take on this?

 

[Fencer]

I am surprised that no one has reported ACs. We have 15 ACs in the national pool of MD/PhD applicants.

 

[wysdoc]

I am surprised that no one has reported ACs. We have 15 ACs in the national pool of MD/PhD applicants.

@Fencer, nobody set up an acceptances thread yet - just the interview & rejection threads!

 

[wysdoc]

@Fencer, nobody set up an acceptances thread yet - just the interview & rejection threads!

Here it is- share your news! ** 2022-2023 MD/PhD Acceptances **

 

[Fencer]

The national pool of MD/PhD applicants for 2023 matriculation seems similar in size and academic benchmarks as compared to the 2022 cycle. We are one of the few MD/PhD programs that analyzes our recruitment and interview processes a bit deeper. As a result of that analysis, we decided not to be offering August interviews for this cycle. We plan to do some early events in December for those accepted. In addition, a key aspect is that we still have 47% of interview slots for Dec. / Jan. X 2 / Feb. We will likely fill our Dec. group early next week as another round of invites goes out. If you are nervous, there is still time to add another school (without $econdary)...

Right now, only 15 applicants have received at least one MD/PhD acceptance. Their average stats are in the 518 MCAT range and 3.90 cGPA, which are just as last cycle for early MD/PhD ACs. Just for perspective, my accepted MD/PhD applicants had an average of 5.8 acceptances, while the national average was around 2.8 MD/PhD ACs for the 831 MD/PhD accepted applicants (40% received only 1 MD/PhD AC, 22% received 2 MD/PhD ACs, 12% received 3 MD/PhD ACs).

 

[Fencer]

Sending invites tomorrow... but even after those invites, we still have 32 interview slots (Jan/Feb). If you do not have sufficient interviews, want MSTP consideration, or just want feedback prior to your resubmission next year (I do one-on-one feedback to those who request it AFTER committee decision), consider adding one MSTP school with no secondary. PM me if you need to discuss.

 

[Fencer]

For the 2023 MD/PhD admissions cycle, we currently have:

1714 applicants (unchanged vs 2022 cycle)
3.74 mean cGPA (unchanged vs 2022 cycle)
514 mean MCAT (unchanged vs 2022 cycle)

There are 68 applicants with at least one MD/PhD acceptance. There are around current 750+ applicants who will eventually receive at least one MD/PhD acceptance out of the 1714 total MD/PhD applicants in this cycle. Most programs have NOT extended acceptances as of yet. Thus, relax... there is a lot of time.

 

[med14159]

Hi @Fencer! Is there any benefit to uploading a brief update/continued interest letter prior to an interview invite? For some schools where I have heard nothing, I know that they have few remaining interview dates, and I plan to submit an update letter unless there is any potential that it may reduce my chances of receiving an interview.

 

[capablecheese]

Related to @med14159 question, when is the latest we should submit an update letter for it to impact interview invites? I'm looking to submit a first-author publication end of November. However, I have currently started shadowing someone new and presented at a conference as well as received an award for a poster. Not sure if I should wait until the submission is final at the end of November or if that might be too late and I should submit the updates I already have ASAP. Also not sure if that would be too many updates to send if I go ahead and send one now and one in a month. Thank you!

 

[Fencer]

As I indicated to some of you before, examine the National Google Calendar for the MD/PhD programs that you applied for. From the date of the last (or better, second to last) interview group count 6-8 weeks prior to that for the greatest impact. If you are in the bubble group, you might get pulled out of the hat.

After interviews, ask when the committee meets for decisions and whether updates are allowed. If they are allowed, send an update at least 1 - 2 weeks prior to the committee meeting.

 

[fingerscrossed47282]

Hi Fencer,

Apologize if you already answered this but: for letters of interest/intent, is it best to send these letters directly to program directors? If the school has a portal for updates should I only update the letter here? I want to make sure my letter has the best chance of being seen, but don't want to come off as badgering/annoying to the admissions committee. Thank you!

 

[Fencer]

Every program has their system. Call up/email to program coordinator and ask their preference. Ours is an email to the Program's email and to be up to one page summary in PDF.

 

[Docsquare]

Hello, Thanks for the helpful information posted in this forum. I had a question on the type of updates that qualify to be updates. I have one in preprint and one in submitted abstract/pending manuscript submission - both since a couple of interviews. Are these significant enough updates both for schools I have interviewed at and also for the ones that I haven't received an interview yet?

 

[thr1932359]

Hello, Thanks for the helpful information posted in this forum. I had a question on the type of updates that qualify to be updates. I have one in preprint and one in submitted abstract/pending manuscript submission - both since a couple of interviews. Are these significant enough updates both for schools I have interviewed at and also for the ones that I haven't received an interview yet?

I personally think both of these are worth updating on; nothing too long, you can say something along the lines of "a paper of mine is now in preprint <link/doi here> and I've submitted another paper to X journal" and leave it at that.

 

[Fencer]

Agree with response by @thr1932359

 

[Docsquare]

Thank you both for your responses!

 

[sopranodwarf]

Hey all, is it advisable to send letters of interest post-interview but pre-decision? I've heard that certain MD-only programs like seeing these, but I'm wondering what the scoop is on the MD-PhD side. Thanks

 

[Fencer]

Every program behaves slightly different. We request an update two weeks prior to our final admissions committee. A single email won't hurt, but repeatedly (i.e.: weekly) might...

 

[mintchocoholic]

@Fencer

I was hoping to get your advice on my situation. I got put on hold after an interview at my top choice and only have two other interviews that I have yet to hear back from. My stats and research hours are at or above average and I am getting worried about this cycle. Is there anything you would suggest to have the best shot at getting one acceptance? Is sending a letter of intent to my top choice where I am on hold going to make a difference?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Fencer]

Most MD/PhD programs release the bulk of their acceptances until February and/or first two weeks of March. That is the peak in the number of MD/PhD acceptances in the year. Some but not all MD/PhD programs begin offering ACs as early as Oct. 15, slowly increasing in December but the highest peak is in February for the ~2200 MD/PhD ACs given to ~800 applicants.
As per traffic rules/guidelines, by March 15, we must have as many acceptances as intended slots that we are planning to enroll. Between mid-March and May 1st, the number of acceptances nationally keeps declining, but programs must fill their slots. It becomes a trickle after the first two weeks of May, but a few people still are able to get their first MD/PhD AC.

In general, receiving a thoughtful email with a letter of intent is often appreciated by the MSTP leadership. Some programs use these emails for catching the very last matriculant to their class, but have a lesser effect on the initial offers. However, once again, each program is a different universe with people who have different personalities and preferences. Go and visit places and ask for an unscheduled visit to really see the place....

 

[mintchocoholic]

Great, thank you so much!

 

[Green-Eyed Girl]

@Fencer Any status updates on the cycle?

 

[Fencer]

As of last night, one reports tells me that the entire cycle consists of 1775 applicants. The other report tells me that out of 1759 applicants with a cGPA (i.e.: took their UG coursework in the USA or Canada), 400 have received at least one MD/PhD acceptance, or 399 out of 1754 applicants who took the MCAT over the past five years have received a MD/PhD acceptance. It is possible that >400 applicants out of the 1775 pool have been accepted. Unfortunately, the old system (AP Tools) is no longer being used, thus, numbers in the new portal might still have some noise....

The cGPA of the 400 MD/PhD ACs is 3.86 with a ScGPA of 3.83, while the MCAT of the 399 MD/PhD ACs is 517.0. Now that means, as it is in prior cycles, that only half (the more accomplished in academic benchmarks) of the 2023 matriculating class has received at least one MD/PhD offer. The other half is on the sidelines anguishly waiting for their first one. Be calm, in my experience, being a late MD/PhD AC is not a predictor of worst success... quite the contrary, some of my best success stories are those people often having greater resilience, grit and creativity.

 

[Green-Eyed Girl]

As of last night, one reports tells me that the entire cycle consists of 1775 applicants. The other report tells me that out of 1759 applicants with a cGPA (i.e.: took their UG coursework in the USA or Canada), 400 have received at least one MD/PhD acceptance, or 399 out of 1754 applicants who took the MCAT over the past five years have received a MD/PhD acceptance. It is possible that >400 applicants out of the 1775 pool have been accepted. Unfortunately, the old system (AP Tools) is no longer being used, thus, numbers in the new portal might still have some noise....

The cGPA of the 400 MD/PhD ACs is 3.86 with a ScGPA of 3.83, while the MCAT of the 399 MD/PhD ACs is 517.0. Now that means, as it is in prior cycles, that only half (the more accomplished in academic benchmarks) of the 2023 matriculating class has received at least one MD/PhD offer. The other half is on the sidelines anguishly waiting for their first one. Be calm, in my experience, being a late MD/PhD AC is not a predictor of worst success... quite the contrary, some of my best success stories are those people often having greater resilience, grit and creativity.

Thank you @Fencer. Helpful!

 

[mstplease97]

Hi! I have a few questions I was hoping you might have some insight on:
1. Is there a difference between a hold and a waitlist? Or does it depend on the school?
2. For waitlists, do schools typically tell you what number you are on that list?
3. How much waitlist movement do MSTPs see?

 

[ModernPhilosopher]

Also wondering about waitlist movement... If I am on three waitlists with one upcoming interview, is it reasonable to believe I have a shot at being accepted this cycle?

 

[Fencer]

AMCAS updated its systems in Nov. '22. Since then, we have not have a complete landscape, but 3 different looks at the elephant. The entire 2023 applicant pool appears to consists of 1771 applicants with an average cGPA of 3.73 and highest MCAT score average of 513 (however, most recent MCAT score of 514 - I don't know how to explain that).

 

[Fencer]

I didn't finish my prior post, but about 551 out of the 1759 w cGPA (those w GPA only from outside USA and Canada are the difference) have received at least one MD/PhD acceptance, which means that ~250 applicants who will eventually get one are still waiting for their 2023 outcome...
February is the peak month for MD/PhD acceptances. My own program will be extending several ACs next week.

Waitlists work typically during mid to late April and early May, but each program is their own universe.

 

[Maebea]

Hi! I have a few questions I was hoping you might have some insight on:
1. Is there a difference between a hold and a waitlist? Or does it depend on the school?
2. For waitlists, do schools typically tell you what number you are on that list?
3. How much waitlist movement do MSTPs see?

All this depends on the school. At my school, we use the terms interchangeably. We do tell applicants how many waitlist positions are offered, but we do not rank the waitlist. We see some waitlist movement; typically we offer a position to 1 or 2 people on the waitlist. About half the people on the waitlist will withdraw at some point as they commit to other programs.

 

[ModernPhilosopher]

All this depends on the school. At my school, we use the terms interchangeably. We do tell applicants how many waitlist positions are offered, but we do not rank the waitlist. We see some waitlist movement; typically we offer a position to 1 or 2 people on the waitlist. About half the people on the waitlist will withdraw at some point as they commit to other programs.

about how big are the waitlists?

 

[Maebea]

That will definitely vary from program to program. We base ours on yield history and make the smallest number of offers it has taken in the past 5 years to fill the class. We offer 8-10 waitlist spots. Four or five will subsequently withdraw and we usually make offers to 1 or 2 of the remaining applicants.

 

[Fencer]

Please take into account that Maebea is at a very large MSTP that is top 20 school. Schools in the 20-50 range of the likely defunct USNWR rankings for medical schools have larger waitlists. I am not more precise to avoid identifying this person. We know each other well for over a decade. Now, my program does have a larger waitlist, but we need to divide into "priority" (historically, I get to your gross ranking) and regular waitlist. That is due to my attrition to other "perceived as more prestigious" MSTPs.
However, the truth is that >25% of my graduates are now faculty at top 10 medical schools, and my overall outcomes are as good as the "old boys' MSTPs", which is why I got a better Impact Score in my MSTP renewal than some complacent MSTPs living out of prestige.

 

[Fencer]

I am so proud... One of my 4 MD/PhD Graduates for 2023 received a letter indicating that he was one of the top 6 for WUSTL PSTP (they have 6 slots). It is a terrific match for him and his family.

 

[Fencer]

I want to make a clarification for those who asked me about match processes. The residency match allows programs to indicate to only top applicants that fit the total number of slots offered, as long as they do not change their rankings based upon their responses or their lack of response of the applicants. The results of the residency match become public until noon of March 17 (and the fellowship match is until May). Similarly, applicants are able to indicate top preference of program. It looks poor if multiple programs receive letters of intent from the applicant. This is similar to your MD/PhD application process. Therefore, the significance of this letter was showing him that they thought that he belongs within their top residents at an institution that is top 10 for his specialty.

This is an example of someone who came from a no-name satellite undergrad campus of state university, putting hard work, regular med school grades and step scores, but outstanding publication and fellowship track records, and who was able to build on excellent presentation and communication skills. The latter skills (pubs, grants, presentations, etc.) are what MSTP training is about, and as you compare MSTP programs, the training on those skillsets and the program's success rates is what matters.

To become eventual faculty, it matters more where you train for Fellowship > Residency > MD/PhD > undergrad. Pursuing excellence in any MSTP is what gets you to be successful and become a contributor to our scientific enterprise. To end my post with the promotional thing, our MD/PhD graduates interviewed in most top 20 programs for their specialty AND geographical preference... so, choose wisely your program... now during 2nd visits, ask the hard questions from trainees, mentors, and program leadership.

 

[mdphdhopefully]

@Fencer I'm noticing that there's a real disparity between programs for how many grad school courses MD/PhD students have to take during their PhD years (due to differences in how many of the med school courses they double count as grad courses). Do you have any thoughts on this? Is being required to take more grad school courses a good use of time during PhD years compared to focusing on research projects? What sorts of students (with respect to background experiences and/or future interests) do you think would benefit from more grad school courses, and which sorts of students would benefit from fewer grad school courses? Thanks!

 

[Fencer]

Every program/school delivers about the same amount of coursework (divided between SOM and PhD). The key is asking trainees and leadership for their time to graduation for the last couple of cohorts and the last 10 years. The latter is what we are asked for in our MSTP T32 renewal, and reviewers are highly critical of that. I believe that the national average is in the range of 8.6 years, with most MSTPs trying to shorten it to the range of 8.0 +/- 0.2. Now, ask the graduating trainees or trainees about to defend dissertation what is their opinion on their coursework load AND whether they have opportunity to work on the other skillsets (i.e.: grants, manuscripts, presentation, managing people, budgeting, etc.) that are needed to become investigators...

 

[mdphdhopefully]

Every program/school delivers about the same amount of coursework (divided between SOM and PhD). The key is asking trainees and leadership for their time to graduation for the last couple of cohorts and the last 10 years. The latter is what we are asked for in our MSTP T32 renewal, and reviewers are highly critical of that. I believe that the national average is in the range of 8.6 years, with most MSTPs trying to shorten it to the range of 8.0 +/- 0.2. Now, ask the graduating trainees or trainees about to defend dissertation what is their opinion on their coursework load AND whether they have opportunity to work on the other skillsets (i.e.: grants, manuscripts, presentation, managing people, budgeting, etc.) that are needed to become investigators...

Great thoughts, thanks for the insight. The challenge is that older students are tough to find at most of the admissions events in my experience--the majority of current students I've met with have been in their respective programs <4 years (don't get me wrong its totally understandable older students dgaf about admissions). Your answer gives me great ideas for the in person second looks, though!

 

[lemon.slice]

Hi Fencer. I was hoping you could share your input - would a letter of intent make a difference in a school's decision to waitlist vs reject you, if that is where you stand in their eyes? Or would it be a better strategy to send an LOI once you are waitlisted? I am considering sending a letter of intent but am worried that if I do that pre-decision and then get a WL from that school, I will be stuck on multiple WLs without any more actions I can take on my end. Thank you!

 

[Fencer]

I do not think that a LOI makes a difference between waitlist and rejection. However, it might make a difference to select among two or three similarly ranked individuals as to which one to select.

 

[Glutenlover1948]

Hello Fencer, I hope you are doing well. Now that we're approaching the March 15 mark (tomorrow) in the cycle with schools finalizing their initial offers, can you give us an idea of what we can expect for the next month til waitlist movement begins on April 15?

 

[Coww]

What incentivizes schools to follow AAMC traffic rules? A program I’m waiting on has not offered more than a few acceptances yet and, based on what they said during interviews, does not plan to offer any this week.