Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Extension

[asfhxmf]

Has anyone had any luck getting an extension on GI Bill benefits for medical school?

It's formally called the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship Program (38 USC §3320) for veterans studying medicine. This scholarship adds up to 9 months of Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits. Although the scholarship is primarily for those in undergraduate studies, students enrolled “in a covered clinical training program for health care professionals" are also eligible.

In the 116th Congress, Rep. Lauren Underwood (D-IL 14th) and Rep. Andy Barr (R-KY 6th) co-sponsored the Veterans in STEM Act (HR 6140), which got rolled into §1001 of the Veterans Health Care and Benefits Improvement Act of 2020 (HR 7105, Public Law 116-315).

The apparent intent of that bill was to clarify eligibility for medical residents. Previous verbiage included “medical residency,” but simultaneously excluded post-secondary education. Thus, before Public Law 116-315, the VA would adjudicate medical residents as post-secondary students, and therefore, ineligible for the STEM scholarship.

I asked the VA if medical school was covered. To my surprise, I was told that “The STEM scholarship covers clinical training programs and undergraduate medical residencies, but NOT graduate-level medical school.” For those veterans interested in becoming a physician, this means they will have to pay medical school tuition and not be eligible for the scholarship until they enter a tuition-free, stipend-paying medical residency.

Of note, physician assistant and nurse practitioner programs have also been deemed ineligible for the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship Program by the VA.

According to the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), the median 4-year cost of medical school attendance for the class of 2021 is $259,347 (public) and $346,955 (private). Medical residents are paid about $50-$70k annually in stipends that are funded by the Department of Health and Human Services (42 USC §256e/h). Since there is no tuition for medical residency, the STEM scholarship would theoretically only pay a monthly housing allowance for those 9 months of additional benefits.

It does not seem reasonable for this scholarship to fund medical residency, but not medical school. Might there be an issue with how the VA interprets 38 USC §3320?

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[BC_89]

We have a detailed sticky thread that includes the updates of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship:

***2022 Update*** FAQs - Post 9/11 & Montgomery GI Bill Benefits - VR&E Chapter 31 Benefits - Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship (Files Attached)

In short, this scholarship does cover medical school. To split verbiage, it is not considered "graduate school" but rather, it falls under the umbrella of "professional school and professional training."

The January 2020 Designated Degree Program List (attached to the sticky thread) specifically mentions this at the link below (Updated 3/17/2021):

- STEM Designated Degree Program List

Look Under CIP-2 Digit Code 51, and you'll see all of the following:
1) 51.1201 - Medicine
2) 51.1202 - Osteopathic Medicine/Osteopathy
3) 51.1299 - Medicine, Other
4) 51.14 - Medical Clinical Sciences/Graduate Medical Studies

It also covers other health professional programs like pharmacy, podiatry, optometry, dentistry, physician assistant, and veterinary programs.

Unless another revision expelled this order, this is the current standing that veterans have been able to use.

 

[asfhxmf]

We have a detailed sticky thread that includes the updates of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship:

***2022 Update*** FAQs - Post 9/11 & Montgomery GI Bill Benefits - VR&E Chapter 31 Benefits - Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship (Files Attached)

In short, this scholarship does cover medical school. To split verbiage, it is not considered "graduate school" but rather, it falls under the umbrella of "professional school and professional training."

The January 2020 Designated Degree Program List (attached to the sticky thread) specifically mentions this at the link below (Updated 3/17/2021):

- STEM Designated Degree Program List

Look Under CIP-2 Digit Code 51, and you'll see all of the following:
1) 51.1201 - Medicine
2) 51.1202 - Osteopathic Medicine/Osteopathy
3) 51.1299 - Medicine, Other
4) 51.14 - Medical Clinical Sciences/Graduate Medical Studies

It also covers other health professional programs like pharmacy, podiatry, optometry, dentistry, physician assistant, and veterinary programs.

Unless another revision expelled this order, this is the current standing that veterans have been able to use.

Thanks for the quick reply! That's the same revision I cited when I reached out to the VA last year (May 2021). Their response is below:

"[Here] are the STEM Team's answers for all the questions which have come up on this issue, linked together for your convenience:

Covered clinical training for the purposes of the STEM Scholarship is defined as post graduate clinical training. These include residency and healthcare-related fellowship programs. Covered clinical training does not include clinical training that is part of an approved undergraduate or graduate degree program. Residency and Fellowship programs typically occur in a hospital or other healthcare setting. These clinical training programs are generally reported in clock hours rather than as credit bearing programs.

Graduate level programs are payable when they are part of an approved dual degree program. The dual degree program must include at least one undergraduate degree and at least one of the undergraduate degree programs must be STEM qualifying. Covered clinical training does not include clinical training that is part of an approved undergraduate or graduate degree program."

I had a similar discussion over the phone a few weeks ago (June 2022), where they insisted that only residency/fellowship counted as "clinical training," but not medical school.

Maybe I keep reaching the wrong people at the VA.

Has anyone actually been able to get an extension on GI Bill benefits for medical school through this program?

 

[xffan624]

Thanks for the quick reply! That's the same revision I cited when I reached out to the VA last year (May 2021). Their response is below:



I had a similar discussion over the phone a few weeks ago (June 2022), where they insisted that only residency/fellowship counted as "clinical training," but not medical school.

Maybe I keep reaching the wrong people at the VA.

Has anyone actually been able to get an extension on GI Bill benefits for medical school through this program?

This is the same logic they used to deny me for my residency before the new law passed. It's absurd. Good luck fighting it. I appealed using their own 3 page list single spaced of residency specialties that were covered under the program and they still denied me. The new law came out in January before my residency ended so I just let it go and didn't try to reapply.

 

[asfhxmf]

This is the same logic they used to deny me for my residency before the new law passed. It's absurd. Good luck fighting it. I appealed using their own 3 page list single spaced of residency specialties that were covered under the program and they still denied me. The new law came out in January before my residency ended so I just let it go and didn't try to reapply.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It sounds like before PL 116-315, the VA was hung up on the fact that the only eligible, non-undergraduate programs needed to lead to a teaching certificate. The law only explicitly covered undergraduate STEM degrees (including "Medical residency (undergraduate only)", which still shows up on the VA's website !!!). Therefore, medical residents would be deemed ineligible because they weren't in an undergraduate program. No one's been able to tell me what an "undergraduate medical residency" is.

It looks like PL 116-315 was supposed to add another post-undergraduate exception for healthcare professionals, but tied that exception to circularly-defined "covered clinical training programs." I literally had someone at the VA tell me that "covered clinical training programs" are clinical training programs that are covered by the law, which medical school apparently isn't.

The only things I can infer are:

• The VA has no idea how becoming a doctor, PA, or NP works
• The VA may be maliciously interpreting the law to prevent veterans from utilizing this extension. I have no idea how the VA-Congress relationship currently stands. The VA may be disincentivized by Congress (in the form of budget cuts) to pay for more GI Bill benefits.
• Alternatively, the VA may just be incompetent
• Congress may not know of the problem they created

I've been getting nowhere with my representative, and I've previously reached out to Rep. Underwood's office with no response.

Unless anyone's been actually able to crack the code on how to get an extension for medical school, I think a more organized approach to Congress may be in order.

 

[xffan624]

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It sounds like before PL 116-315, the VA was hung up on the fact that the only eligible, non-undergraduate programs needed to lead to a teaching certificate. The law only explicitly covered undergraduate STEM degrees (including "Medical residency (undergraduate only)", which still shows up on the VA's website !!!). Therefore, medical residents would be deemed ineligible because they weren't in an undergraduate program. No one's been able to tell me what an "undergraduate medical residency" is.

It looks like PL 116-315 was supposed to add another post-undergraduate exception for healthcare professionals, but tied that exception to circularly-defined "covered clinical training programs." I literally had someone at the VA tell me that "covered clinical training programs" are clinical training programs that are covered by the law, which medical school apparently isn't.

The only things I can infer are:

• The VA has no idea how becoming a doctor, PA, or NP works
• The VA may be maliciously interpreting the law to prevent veterans from utilizing this extension. I have no idea how the VA-Congress relationship currently stands. The VA may be disincentivized by Congress (in the form of budget cuts) to pay for more GI Bill benefits.
• Alternatively, the VA may just be incompetent
• Congress may not know of the problem they created

I've been getting nowhere with my representative, and I've previously reached out to Rep. Underwood's office with no response.

Unless anyone's been actually able to crack the code on how to get an extension for medical school, I think a more organized approach to Congress may be in order.

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. I have to believe that the recent changes to the law were as a result of myself and others appealing the nonsensical VA policy towards residency. Keep trying. Go to your congressperson if you continue to hit a wall. Eventually it may be fixed but maybe not in time for you.

 

[asfhxmf]

Interestingly enough, I received the following response from Rep. Underwood's office (she co-sponsored PL 116-315).

BLUF: They did not intend to expand the extension to medical school itself. They only meant to fix the "medical residency"-"undergraduate only" interlock.

I am [with] Rep. Underwood’s District Office. You sent an inquiry regarding 38 USC 3320, specifically about the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship Program. The VA is correct in that you cannot use it towards medical school itself, but if the VA deems residency as clinical training it would qualify for that portion of medical school IF you have attained a post-secondary degree (which could be an associates or bachelors degree) in the major fields listed. I highlighted the portion explaining that in yellow and the required undergraduate degrees in red.

(a) In General.-Subject to the limitation under subsection (f), the Secretary shall provide additional benefits to eligible individuals selected by the Secretary under this section. Such benefits shall be known as the "Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship".
(b) Eligibility.-For purposes of this section, an eligible individual is an individual-
(1) who is or was entitled to educational assistance under section 3311 of this title;
(2) who has used all of the educational assistance to which the individual is entitled under this chapter or will, based on the individual's rate of usage, use all of such assistance within 180 days of applying for benefits under this section;
(3) who applies for assistance under this section; and
(4) who-
(A) is an individual who-
(i) is enrolled in a program of education leading to a post-secondary degree that, in accordance with the guidelines of the applicable regional or national accrediting agency, requires at least the standard 120 semester (or 180 quarter) credit hours for completion in a standard, undergraduate college degree, or a dual degree program that includes such an undergraduate college degree, in-
(I) biological or biomedical science;
(II) physical science;
(III) science technologies or technicians;
(IV) computer and information science and support services;
(V) mathematics or statistics;
(VI) engineering;
(VII) engineering technologies or an engineering-related field;
(VIII) a health profession or related program;
(IX) an agriculture science program or a natural resources science program; or
(X) other subjects and fields identified by the Secretary as meeting national needs;
(ii) has completed at least 60 standard semester (or 90 quarter) credit hours in a field referred to in clause (i); or
(B) is an individual who has earned a post-secondary degree in a field referred to in subparagraph (A)(i) and is enrolled in a covered clinical training program for health care professionals or a program of education leading to a teaching certification; or
(C) is an individual who has earned a graduate degree in a field referred to in subparagraph (A)(i) and is enrolled in a covered clinical training program for health care professionals.

If you are eligible and having issues getting this covered through the VA or if the VA is not defining the residency portion of medical school as a clinical training program, I would strongly suggest contacting one of your senators or your representative to advocate on your behalf with the VA regarding this issue.

Sorry, @BC_89, it looks like both the VA and Congress are on the same page with respect to leaving out medical school.

 

[asfhxmf]

This is a mess... I pulled the string on their comment of "the residency portion of medical school."

Turns out, Congress (and maybe the VA) think of medical school clerkships/rotations as "residency" for the purpose of the GI Bill extension. Here's their response:

I misspoke when I said residency, but to my understanding, there are 2ish or so years of clinical training as part of most medical school programs. This is the time in the medical school program that would be covered according to the language of the scholarship.

And, of course, the Post 9/11 GI Bill itself covers medical school depending on the individual’s management of their benefits. Based solely on the language of the law, it would seem that this scholarship was never meant to cover entire medical school bills considering the GI Bill’s existence, but it is meant to cover undergraduate expenses, supplement and assist with further training, and potentially backfill clinical programs that were not being covered by the GI Bill. The added language would suggest that it can assist mid-program during the clinical portion of medical school programs, and appeals could be made to the VA to support that if the criteria is met based on the language of the law. How the VA actually interprets that in practice is unclear, but their website does clearly state the requirements and guidelines which is why I suggested if you have any issues to contact your members of Congress or local VSOs to inquire on your behalf.

So, it may just be up to the discretion of the medical school to certify when a medical student is in the "clinical training" portion of the program.

@BC_89, this may explain why the medical school CIP codes show up on the list.

 

[BC_89]

Sorry for the late response (actually having my own battles about my Chapter 31 benefits extended its coverage for residency):

When the change in this scholarship was put out, it was worded (and still does) to include the coverage of medical school and other healthcare professions. This was put out by VA representatives (those in executive positions that are in charge of approving and disapproving programs) and re-iterated in March of 2021. The problem is many non-healthcare political stakeholders do not fully understand what medical school entails. You can ask all of them the difference between an assistant physician and a physician assistant and they wont be able to interpret or comprehend it.

When I get time, I'll elaborate the details of my own findings, but for now here is what I'll say:

1) Congress puts a "cap" ($$$) on coverage for extensions to those who maxed out the GI Bill, hence - this scholarship can be treated as a "first come first serve" basis

2) VA is left for interpretation of "general language." This leaves the common misconception that it covers traditional certificates and traditional undergraduate schooling (associates, bachelors, teaching certs, etc) and nothing beyond this.

The fact that they "misspoke" and "mis-interpreted" this scholarship in your email communication is a prime example of what happens when you put general language up for interpretation. This is exactly why many do not get approved for Chapter 31 (VR&E) easily for professional programs (it's rare and was never initially meant for those pursuing anything beyond a bachelors). Yet, the verbiage can be argued to cover these extensions.

The documents I sent are 100% clear on what "can" be covered. The real question is, "will" they? This fallacy of an argument is what I made for my VR&E approval for pharmacy school when told I am automatically disqualified. I looked up the CFR code and bylaws, read it back, and just like that...Approved.

Here is (my subjective projection) a good example of ignorance of assumptions being used in clear language.

"Based solely on the language of the law, it would seem that this scholarship was never meant to cover entire medical school bills considering the GI Bill’s existence..."

Of course it wasn't - but it does, and can, cover a portion of medical school. This was written in the format (of their minds) of a veteran who ran out of GI Bill by the time school rotations started and thus, this extension would cover that training status before graduating and fully emerging in residency. Their mistake is not our burden.

By the way - my information came straight out of a VA executive representative (and JAG associates) who interpreted the not-so-nitty-gritty details of this coverage. Unfortunately, I'm sure no one will get covered due to the cap associated with this scholarship to pay a portion of med school vs anything else.

Sorry you have to go through this, but I am glad you're sharing their information because clearly, they cannot seem to get their own stories straight.

 

[asfhxmf]

Guess I kinda put you on the spot. Sorry about that.

That all makes sense. As I was digging into this, I wasn't sure if this was a problem that needed to be solved with an amendment to 38 USC §3320. Sounds like this is more of a "keep-fighting-the-VA" problem.

Luckily, I have time to get my ducks in a row. I'm in a postbac premed program right now, and will run out of benefits in the spring semester of 2025 at the earliest.

No rush, but any insider tips dealing with the VA would be greatly appreciated!

 

[BC_89]

You didn’t put anyone on the spot, rather you have a good valid question concerning the scholarship -

My emotional numbness stems from how the VA seems to be treating your case. Probably because I’m now going through something similar. This will be something good to follow up on.

When I get my comp-day I’ll also do some homework and see who I can get ahold of to re-verify these details (hopefully by Friday)

 

[BC_89]

Update - Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Extension

More or less (with the help of congress, legal advisors, VA reps via phone to phone) here is my finding:
1) Interpretation of what is publicly written CAN cover for medical school should one run-out of GI Bill & not necessarily wait for clinical rotations
2) This was MEANT to cover professional/clinical roles that are not outlined as didactic classroom work (rotations at optometry/pharm/med school)

On a legality standpoint, what can be made? Well, the clause (simply put by legal advisors) for getting benefits from such a program is this: "First come, first serve." It is also up to the interpretation of your local/regional VA representative if you qualify (i.e. there own interpretation). That said, if anyone else needs this benefit that doesn't require careful interpretation, chances are....they'll get the benefits and you wont.

Again though, these changes are new and I don't believe anyone can honestly say if a student is currently using this during the didactic portion of med school as of September 2022. Only time will tell

 

[0m1e2d]

Has anyone been able to receive the extension? I start medical school this fall and will have 13 months left of my GI bill. Not sure if there is anything I can do now to help my chances.

 

[xffan624]

Has anyone been able to receive the extension? I start medical school this fall and will have 13 months left of my GI bill. Not sure if there is anything I can do now to help my chances.

I have no updates re: STEM extension, but do you have any disability percentage? You could try to apply for voc rehab which could extend your benefits for a little longer.

 

[0m1e2d]

I have no updates re: STEM extension, but do you have any disability percentage? You could try to apply for voc rehab which could extend your benefits for a little longer.

I am a dependent. My dad has 100%

 

[xffan624]

I am a dependent. My dad has 100%

Only veterans qualify for voc rehab. Just apply for the extension and hope for the best. There might be private scholarships for dependents of disabled veterans as well you could apply for.

 

[Macy Wilson]

We have a detailed sticky thread that includes the updates of the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship:

***2022 Update*** FAQs - Post 9/11 & Montgomery GI Bill Benefits - VR&E Chapter 31 Benefits - Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship (Files Attached)

In short, this scholarship does cover medical school. To split verbiage, it is not considered "graduate school" but rather, it falls under the umbrella of "professional school and professional training."

The January 2020 Designated Degree Program List (attached to the sticky thread) specifically mentions this at the link below (Updated 3/17/2021):

- STEM Designated Degree Program List

Look Under CIP-2 Digit Code 51, and you'll see all of the following:
1) 51.1201 - Medicine
2) 51.1202 - Osteopathic Medicine/Osteopathy
3) 51.1299 - Medicine, Other
4) 51.14 - Medical Clinical Sciences/Graduate Medical Studies

It also covers other health professional programs like pharmacy, podiatry, optometry, dentistry, physician assistant, and veterinary programs.

Unless another revision expelled this order, this is the current standing that veterans have been able to use.

I was recently denied the scholarship for veterinary school. Any advice or documentation to submit for an appeal to ensure success? I’ve gone back and forth in email and they’re only saying my “graduate degree program does not meet the criteria.”

 

[BC_89]

I was recently denied the scholarship for veterinary school. Any advice or documentation to submit for an appeal to ensure success? I’ve gone back and forth in email and they’re only saying my “graduate degree program does not meet the criteria.”

I am sorry that you reached a denial for the Edith Nourse Rogers STEM Scholarship. My initial thought process is that you've met the following:

• You’ve earned a qualifying degree in a STEM field, and
• You’ve been accepted or are enrolled in a covered clinical training program for health care professionals, and
• You have 6 months or less of your Post-9/11 GI Bill (or Fry Scholarship) benefits left.

Looking at the qualifying list on the STEM Program List Revision 508 (Effective January 1 2020), I also see the following listed:

• CIP 2-digit code: 01 (2020 CIP Code 1.8) - Veterinary Medicine
• CIP 2-digit code: 01 (2020 CIP Code 1.8001) - Veterinary Medicine

Is your program a DVM or a PhD? You cannot use the STEM Scholarship for "graduate degree programs" and if you're pursuing the PhD route, they will keep denying it (nothing you can do at this point). I would look in your program and see if they ever use graduate degree or graduate program on their syllabus / school objective / transcripts. From brief conversations with individuals (particularly the story discussion on this thread), it is up to interpretation as to whether or not you have been accepted to professional schooling or not.

On top of this, many are interpreting clinical rotations as the true professional training and not the didactic course itself (again, up to interpretation - there is nothing in the books that says otherwise). For now, I would bring up the STEM Program List Revision document and point out the veterinary medicine coverage and have them interpret what that means (if they say residency, I'd argue that it is included down the list in a separate digit code bracket). Keep a paper trail of what they tell you with the aforementioned list as part of your attachment.

In the end, should you actually qualify, you have the burden of the "first come first serve" budget that comes with the scholarship program (albeit it says anyone can qualify, not everyone gets the assistance). Hopefully that points you in the right direction. This is a fairly new change in the scholarship so I doubt anyone at this time has successfully used this program for healthcare professional schooling or residency at this point...

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

Just to provide an update, after a couple years of denials with repeated re-submissions of the application and needing to add my program to the list of approved programs, I finally received approval for the STEM scholarship for my surgery residency. I think it was retroactive from the beginning of the academic year so received the full amount. So just keep trying and hopefully it'll eventually go through.

 

[ImTheDudeMan]

Just to provide an update, after a couple years of denials with repeated re-submissions of the application and needing to add my program to the list of approved programs, I finally received approval for the STEM scholarship for my surgery residency. I think it was retroactive from the beginning of the academic year so received the full amount. So just keep trying and hopefully it'll eventually go through.

How did this work? Do they just pay you the housing stipend since there is no tuition in residency to cover? Just started EM residency which I think is on the list, but I've still been fighting it for backpay from 4th-year MS.

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

How did this work? Do they just pay you the housing stipend since there is no tuition in residency to cover? Just started EM residency which I think is on the list, but I've still been fighting it for backpay from 4th-year MS.

Yes. From my understanding it's 30K total of tuition, housing, or tuition+housing. So for residency you'd get it for the housing.

 

[xffan624]

Yes. From my understanding it's 30K total of tuition, housing, or tuition+housing. So for residency you'd get it for the housing.

It's just an extension of the GI Bill so during residency when I used my GI Bill I just received the BAH for where the residency was located. I think you might get a 1K book supplement as well IIRC.

 

[Vadean]

I was searching for updates on the Edith Nourse Scholarship and came across a bill that was just introduced with some edits to the criteria for education which adds in graduate school. However, this is listed under the education pathway and I'm not sure if this would change anything on our end.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/5785/text?s=1&r=57

 

[xffan624]

I was searching for updates on the Edith Nourse Scholarship and came across a bill that was just introduced with some edits to the criteria for education which adds in graduate school. However, this is listed under the education pathway and I'm not sure if this would change anything on our end.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/5785/text?s=1&r=57

Who the eff knows? Hopefully this clarification will help the stop the VA interpreting the bill in nonsensical ways. I was denied that the extension didn't cover medical residency despite the bill containing 10+ page list of the various residency programs (pediatrics, surgery, etc.) that were included in the bill. It only includes "undergraduate residency" which is a mythical creature that does not exist. I think an update a year or two later fixed this but it was too late for me as I finished residency.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Who the eff knows? Hopefully this clarification will help the stop the VA interpreting the bill in nonsensical ways. I was denied that the extension didn't cover medical residency despite the bill containing 10+ page list of the various residency programs (pediatrics, surgery, etc.) that were included in the bill. It only includes "undergraduate residency" which is a mythical creature that does not exist. I think an update a year or two later fixed this but it was too late for me as I finished residency.

You could consider reaching out via Ask VA to utilize it retroactively given the update/interpretation and since you applied/requested before. Worst case is they say no and you waste 10-15 minutes of your time.

 

[BC_89]

People in Congress will still have wild interpretations (VHA as a whole over-spent their budget by $1.8 billion during this fiscal year, so we have the brightest people in our best interest when it comes to veteran-scholarships).

Im just jaded - hopefully this update brings in more veterans to have this benefit during residency.