ED question: ocular FB

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Apollyon

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Quick question: a few weeks back, had a guy come in to the ED about 2am Sunday morning, who turned out to have a metallic corneal foreign body. It was such that I was not confident to remove it. Fortunately, there is an ophtho group in the area (one ophtho, 4 OD's) that always has someone on call. I called the OD at 3am, and she just said she'd see the pt in the afternoon.

That brings up my question: what is the time limit to get a metallic corneal FB out? Could a patient wait from 2am Sunday to Monday, at least 30 hours later, or does it need to come out in less than 24? If it is emergent, I have options, but the distances increase, from 100 miles to 200 for service right now.

I put erythro ointment on it, and patched it.

Thanks for any answers!

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Others can chime in and may have a different opinion, but I like to get these out ASAP. The longer you leave a metallic foreign body in the cornea with unknown depth, the greater the chance of infection and greater risk of long term scarring. I've taken these out an hour or so after the event and the cornea looks pretty good. I've also seen similar metallic FBs 3 days out (patient reluctant to come in and hoped it would go away) and often times there is a prominent WBC reaction around the area, prominent rust ring, etc... They take longer to recover, and even after intense steroids seem to scar a bit more. The goal is to prevent infection and reduce visually significant scarring, and it's easier to tackle both of those early on the in the process. I usually go to the ED immediately if someone calls me with a metallic FB. If it was at 3 AM or so, I would consider having them come to my office at 7 AM or something.
 
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I happened to speak with another optometrist in the same group, and she said that, for her, 36 hours was acceptable, although not preferred.

Thank you, though, for a reasonable and detailed response.
I'm sure many on this forum would agree that 36 hours is acceptable. I personally disagree and would not make somebody with a foreign body in their cornea wait 36 hours. If this was their parent/sibling/friend they would not make them wait.

Plus, the quality of exams by ED providers vary. ED providers do an absolutely tremendous job for the most part, but there are some that aren't comfortable with an eye exam. I was on call the other week and had a NP call me from the ED (Sunday morning) and said she had a patient with a wooden foreign body in the eye and she was going to give him percocet, Erythromycin, and have him follow up with me in the morning. I asked where it was, and she said she couldn't tell if it was in the cornea or in the eye resting on the iris. Needless to say, I went in immediately and took care of it. I didn't feel right having that person wait until Monday.
 
I’ve seen patients sit on these for almost a week and after removing them they are fine. Obviously asap is the right answer, but in real life sometimes this isn’t possible. 24-48 hours is very reasonable.
 
I offer to see patients the next day in the office. If called on Saturday, i offer to come in Sunday, but probably ok for Monday.
I would come in the middle of the night if there is a good story for acute angle closure glaucoma.
 
Just curious: 1) Was this optom actually on call for the ER or is this a situation where he or she was on call for their own practice and the ED asks the optom if they can send the patient over? 2) Was this guy hammering nails at 2AM Sunday morning or just decided that would be the best time to show up at the ED? (this seems to happen way too often) 3) You have to rely on an optometrist for ED advice?... that's horrible.

I would buy a book called the "Wills Eye Manual' and you'll get much more reliable advice from there.

(But to actually answer your question -- as long is the foreign body didn't fully penetrate the cornea, seeing the patient that afternoon sounded fine).
 
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my guess is the ophthalmologist is on call and he/she delegates to the optimetrist.
 
Just curious: 1) Was this optom actually on call for the ER or is this a situation where he or she was on call for their own practice and the ED asks the optom if they can send the patient over? 2) Was this guy hammering nails at 2AM Sunday morning or just decided that would be the best time to show up at the ED? (this seems to happen way too often) 3) You have to rely on an optometrist for ED advice?... that's horrible.

I would buy a book called the "Wills Eye Manual' and you'll get much more reliable advice from there.

(But to actually answer your question -- as long is the foreign body didn't fully penetrate the cornea, seeing the patient that afternoon sounded fine).
So you slam on the Optometrist and then agree at the end that they did the same thing you would do. Nice.

Yeah I'm sure a Wills Eye Manual will help a lot with all the Red Eyes that come to the emergency room. The next time an ED puts a patient with Uveitis on some crappy antibiotic drop I'll just let them stay on it since they know better than me.
 
So you slam on the Optometrist and then agree at the end that they did the same thing you would do. Nice.

Yeah I'm sure a Wills Eye Manual will help a lot with all the Red Eyes that come to the emergency room. The next time an ED puts a patient with Uveitis on some crappy antibiotic drop I'll just let them stay on it since they know better than me.

I don't think he's criticizing the management of the optometrist, but rather that the ED is using an optometrist as their primary source of advice regarding eye issues. That latter part I do agree with Dusn. Not enough optometrists get enough experience managing trauma patients in the acute setting, especially if they did not do a residency. For that ED in question, I would be a bit concerned from a medicolegal perspective unless the optometrist is the sole source of eye care in the area.
 
I don't think he's criticizing the management of the optometrist, but rather that the ED is using an optometrist as their primary source of advice regarding eye issues. That latter part I do agree with Dusn. Not enough optometrists get enough experience managing trauma patients in the acute setting, especially if they did not do a residency. For that ED in question, I would be a bit concerned from a medicolegal perspective unless the optometrist is the sole source of eye care in the area.
Most of the groups now that have OMDs and ODs rotate being on call from what I've seen and experienced. And I think we both know that an OD who works with OMDs would be better at deciding what to do than the ED. Or do you agree with Dusn that we should just hand the ED a book on eye care and let them handle it?
 
Most of the groups now that have OMDs and ODs rotate being on call from what I've seen and experienced. And I think we both know that an OD who works with OMDs would be better at deciding what to do than the ED. Or do you agree with Dusn that we should just hand the ED a book on eye care and let them handle it?

Personally, I would not be opposed that ER docs in the private community use the Wills Eye Manual to get a ballpark of the urgency of a patient's situation and at least a general disposition of what to do. If it's something that can wait a day or two, as long as nothing ridiculous is prescribed or done, it's appropriate practice for the patient to see someone within 24-48 hours. What matters more in terms of call is that if there is a serious injury, the person on call can either come see it on the spot to determine the severity or make the decision for the patient to be transferred to a tertiary care center/ER. If the person on call is not comfortable managing complicated trauma issues on call(in which trauma can be very complex with significant injuries to multiple organs), he/she should get a colleague involved or advise transfer to higher level of care. If the OD (or whomever is on call) is not comfortable or skilled enough to handle these trauma situations and does not have any OMDs to ask for help, that person should really have not much business taking call because little is offered.

The reason I have this opinion is that I have seen many patients post trauma managed incorrectly, and unfortunately quicker diagnosis and triaging would have improved outcomes significantly. Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but recently our center had a patient who had a metal on metal injury to the eye. The OD who managed the patient put the patient on Vigamox and just watched the patient. Eventually the patient developed a perforated infected corneal ulcer, and the OD wanted the patient to see a corneal specialist for PKP. Somehow, the patient ended up in our ER, and our first year resident picked up quickly that there was an IOFB in the anterior chamber going into the vitreous that got infected (which I had the pleasure of fishing out later and cleaning out). If that patient had been seen sooner a week ago when it happened, I'm positive the prognosis would have been much better.

No, I am not making an argument that ODs should not be seeing trauma patients or that they are not trained well enough to manage them, so put your bloody pitchforks down. All I am saying is that if an ER doc is comfortable enough managing traumatic eye issues, they can at least disposition them and get them to see someone appropriately and quickly. If they need a consultant to help with managing a patient and it's an OD, that OD should have experience diagnosing and managing ocular trauma, especially if its complex. That, or the OD has OMDs working with him/her so if there is a question, the OMDs can be curbsided to get their opinion or even a quick exam. If the ED is relying solely on an optometrist, that's where I have hesitations.
 
Personally, I would not be opposed that ER docs in the private community use the Wills Eye Manual to get a ballpark of the urgency of a patient's situation and at least a general disposition of what to do. If it's something that can wait a day or two, as long as nothing ridiculous is prescribed or done, it's appropriate practice for the patient to see someone within 24-48 hours. What matters more in terms of call is that if there is a serious injury, the person on call can either come see it on the spot to determine the severity or make the decision for the patient to be transferred to a tertiary care center/ER. If the person on call is not comfortable managing complicated trauma issues on call(in which trauma can be very complex with significant injuries to multiple organs), he/she should get a colleague involved or advise transfer to higher level of care. If the OD (or whomever is on call) is not comfortable or skilled enough to handle these trauma situations and does not have any OMDs to ask for help, that person should really have not much business taking call because little is offered.

The reason I have this opinion is that I have seen many patients post trauma managed incorrectly, and unfortunately quicker diagnosis and triaging would have improved outcomes significantly. Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but recently our center had a patient who had a metal on metal injury to the eye. The OD who managed the patient put the patient on Vigamox and just watched the patient. Eventually the patient developed a perforated infected corneal ulcer, and the OD wanted the patient to see a corneal specialist for PKP. Somehow, the patient ended up in our ER, and our first year resident picked up quickly that there was an IOFB in the anterior chamber going into the vitreous that got infected (which I had the pleasure of fishing out later and cleaning out). If that patient had been seen sooner a week ago when it happened, I'm positive the prognosis would have been much better.

No, I am not making an argument that ODs should not be seeing trauma patients or that they are not trained well enough to manage them, so put your bloody pitchforks down. All I am saying is that if an ER doc is comfortable enough managing traumatic eye issues, they can at least disposition them and get them to see someone appropriately and quickly. If they need a consultant to help with managing a patient and it's an OD, that OD should have experience diagnosing and managing ocular trauma, especially if its complex. That, or the OD has OMDs working with him/her so if there is a question, the OMDs can be curbsided to get their opinion or even a quick exam. If the ED is relying solely on an optometrist, that's where I have hesitations.
I think you'd have to be pretty rural to where there was no possibly way to get the patient to an OMD. And like you I'm shaped by our own personal experiences. I ironically had a 11yo patient yesterday that had been going to an urgent care for 2 weeks because of a hurting eye, he was given Polymyxin drops for 2 weeks which weren't helping. Well the school nurse finally sent him down to our office and he had a huge herpetic dendrite centrally. My only point is getting them in front of someone comfortable with a slit lamp is usually better than the ED with 50 patients lined up out the door. And I agree if the OD isn't comfortable or experienced taking call then they shouldn't be doing it.
 
Personally, I would not be opposed that ER docs in the private community use the Wills Eye Manual to get a ballpark of the urgency of a patient's situation and at least a general disposition of what to do. If it's something that can wait a day or two, as long as nothing ridiculous is prescribed or done, it's appropriate practice for the patient to see someone within 24-48 hours. What matters more in terms of call is that if there is a serious injury, the person on call can either come see it on the spot to determine the severity or make the decision for the patient to be transferred to a tertiary care center/ER. If the person on call is not comfortable managing complicated trauma issues on call(in which trauma can be very complex with significant injuries to multiple organs), he/she should get a colleague involved or advise transfer to higher level of care. If the OD (or whomever is on call) is not comfortable or skilled enough to handle these trauma situations and does not have any OMDs to ask for help, that person should really have not much business taking call because little is offered.

The reason I have this opinion is that I have seen many patients post trauma managed incorrectly, and unfortunately quicker diagnosis and triaging would have improved outcomes significantly. Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but recently our center had a patient who had a metal on metal injury to the eye. The OD who managed the patient put the patient on Vigamox and just watched the patient. Eventually the patient developed a perforated infected corneal ulcer, and the OD wanted the patient to see a corneal specialist for PKP. Somehow, the patient ended up in our ER, and our first year resident picked up quickly that there was an IOFB in the anterior chamber going into the vitreous that got infected (which I had the pleasure of fishing out later and cleaning out). If that patient had been seen sooner a week ago when it happened, I'm positive the prognosis would have been much better.

No, I am not making an argument that ODs should not be seeing trauma patients or that they are not trained well enough to manage them, so put your bloody pitchforks down. All I am saying is that if an ER doc is comfortable enough managing traumatic eye issues, they can at least disposition them and get them to see someone appropriately and quickly. If they need a consultant to help with managing a patient and it's an OD, that OD should have experience diagnosing and managing ocular trauma, especially if its complex. That, or the OD has OMDs working with him/her so if there is a question, the OMDs can be curbsided to get their opinion or even a quick exam. If the ED is relying solely on an optometrist, that's where I have hesitations.
I just plucked out a splinter from someone’s vitreous who had been followed by a very reputable uveitis specialist for inflammation. The patient was a poor historian and the view was poor so very understandable. I removed metallic foreign bodies from the AC of a pt followed by a very good retina doc because it was lodged behind the iris (picked up on UBM) and not visible not too long ago as well. What I’m saying is this can happen to MD’s and OD’s alike.

Most likely when an OD takes call for a private practice it is usually for a small community hospital. Most major trauma cases will be sent to larger centers where there is an ophthalmologist on call. As such most calls are for red eye and the like which most ODs can handle. If there’s even a remote chance of an IOFB or open globe that needs to be transferred to a hospital with MD coverage or the case needs to be discussed with the MD on call. Period. ER docs and/or ODs should not be left alone to handle those cases.
 
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If it's central or paracentral, I would want to remove it as soon as possible for the reasons illustrated by previous posters. If it's peripheral and I can't see the patient right away, ok to defer some time within reason. A central or paracentral FB is at a higher risk of being a fully penetrating injury as well since the cornea is thinner towards the center, therefore my index of suspicion is raised that it could be full thickness
 
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