Do's and Don'ts as a student on clerkship

[CSPM 59ers]

Hi everyone,
With the year ending and new clerkship cycle starting I thought I would put some stuff on here as just general feedback from clerks we have had. We get many competitive applicants but its honestly surprising how many students were unprepared this cycle/didn't give a crap. Getting feedback from residents at other programs as well, we weren't as impressed as we were in previous years.

Do's
Read up on your cases. Ask appropriate questions
Set up the OR- if you don't do this you won't match at this program.
Be engaged. Leave your phone in your backpack or something.
If you don't know answers to questions you better get back to the attending or resident who asked you.
If you are helpful I will try and help you get involved or get you home. If you don't care I don't care how long you stay.
It's important to know your place as a student... being a student is hard but being respectful and self aware is crucial.
Keep reading and working on your knowledge base.

Don't
Many students tried correcting residents or giving them feedback... not your place and if you're wrong... its a very bad look.
Don't ask questions just to ask questions... we know what you're doing
Don't Show up late, and definitely don't show up at all. Bad news travels fast and you could easily develop a reputation for being a bad student and screw yourself at other programs. Podiatry is a small world, and people talk
Don't be on your laptop or phone. Unless you ask if you can study during some downtime.

Clerkships are a monthlong job interview. Remember that and you'll be great

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[Adam Smasher]

59ers now? must have been a rough year for the APMLE

 

[Feli]

Yes, clerkships are a job interview of sorts. One wants to pick clerkships wisely and maximize them. This is covered extensively with a search.

....Why don't you say who you are, what program you teach/learn at, etc? "We" "we" "we" means very little without context.

I like the sentiment, but I'm not sure starting a brand new account to anonymously post what is common sense is going to be ground-breaking?

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Hi everyone,
With the year ending and new clerkship cycle starting I thought I would put some stuff on here as just general feedback from clerks we have had. We get many competitive applicants but its honestly surprising how many students were unprepared this cycle/didn't give a crap. Getting feedback from residents at other programs as well, we weren't as impressed as we were in previous years.

Do's
Read up on your cases. Ask appropriate questions
Set up the OR- if you don't do this you won't match at this program.
Be engaged. Leave your phone in your backpack or something.
If you don't know answers to questions you better get back to the attending or resident who asked you.
If you are helpful I will try and help you get involved or get you home. If you don't care I don't care how long you stay.
It's important to know your place as a student... being a student is hard but being respectful and self aware is crucial.
Keep reading and working on your knowledge base.

Don't
Many students tried correcting residents or giving them feedback... not your place and if you're wrong... its a very bad look.
Don't ask questions just to ask questions... we know what you're doing
Don't Show up late, and definitely don't show up at all. Bad news travels fast and you could easily develop a reputation for being a bad student and screw yourself at other programs. Podiatry is a small world, and people talk
Don't be on your laptop or phone. Unless you ask if you can study during some downtime.

Clerkships are a monthlong job interview. Remember that and you'll be great

These are all excellent advice. I'm curious, do you have any insights on why the quality of candidates was different this year compared to previous cycles?

 

[Treaty of Dorsi]

These are all excellent advice. I'm curious, do you have any insights on why the quality of candidates was different this year compared to previous cycles?

I am not sure if one person or a couple of people can determine the quality of candidates within a class.

There are so many factors that play into it. One that comes to mind; some programs remain popular throughout the years and will always have a roster of very well prepared students, while other programs come in and out of the show. The same way residents/programs talk, students do too. So if you are the latter program, a couple of ****ty reviews from upperclassmen can drastically change the type of students you get for that year.

PS: Competitive vs well-prepared might mean two different things imo. I believe a very well prepared student does not always equate a 4.0 student. A 3.5 student with good social skills and ability to handle stressful situations will be considered better prepared than someone with a 4.0 that is awkward and freaks out when put into a stressful situation ie: interview infront of 5-10 people.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Dont:

Lie to everyone at a residency and say your 5-week rotation is a 4-week, and take the entire week off.

Seriously. This has happened in the past and multiple times. The only reason these students aren't failing their 3rd/4th year is that the school refuses to fail them on the rotation (how's that for integrity). Everyone at the residency knows the schedule. You will be barred from the program.

By-the-way: directors at various programs, especially in the same geographic location, talk to each other. You will be well known.

 

[Robin-jay]

Dont:

Lie to everyone at a residency and say your 5-week rotation is a 4-week, and take the entire week off.

Seriously. This has happened in the past and multiple times. The only reason these students aren't failing their 3rd/4th year is that the school refuses to fail them on the rotation (how's that for integrity). Everyone at the residency knows the schedule. You will be barred from the program.

By-the-way: directors at various programs, especially in the same geographic location, talk to each other. You will be well known.

Do you just let students say it's a 4 week rotation and take the last week off? I feel like programs would just say something like "Isn't this a 5 week rotation" to the student?

 

[GreenHousePub]

Do you just let students say it's a 4 week rotation and take the last week off? I feel like programs would just say something like "Isn't this a 5 week rotation" to the student?

The ones we have gotten in the past have all worked together and come up with the scheme. Seriously, different years, all coming up with the same bs.

Once they do it we just notify the schools.

Some have had to come back and do a full week.

You could try to do it at your residency or even at your job but the consequences would probably be worse.

 

[Robin-jay]

The ones we have gotten in the past have all worked together and come up with the scheme. Seriously, different years, all coming up with the same bs.

Once they do it we just notify the schools.

Some have had to come back and do a full week.

You could try to do it at your residency or even at your job but the consequences would probably be worse.

That's strange that multiple externs during the same month would try to come up with a plan to avoid another week.

But also what's the point of having them come back for another week if the program has already decided not to accept them? Better question yet, has your program every accepted one of these students for residency? Or even given them an interview?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

These are all excellent advice. I'm curious, do you have any insights on why the quality of candidates was different this year compared to previous cycles?

The quality of students have sucked in general. My theory is…

1) schools are more desperate, accepting anyone
2) Covid didn’t help.

The 3rd, 4th year students I’ve been around are mostly all awful. Occasionally you’ll have a good one but I’m fearful for what podiatry is to come if these are the future podiatrists we are graduating..

 

[Robin-jay]

The quality of students have sucked in general. My theory is…

1) schools are more desperate, accepting anyone
2) Covid didn’t help.

The 3rd, 4th year students I’ve been around are mostly all awful. Occasionally you’ll have a good one but I’m fearful for what podiatry is to come if these are the future podiatrists we are graduating..

When haven't the schools just accepted anyone?

 

[Feli]

When haven't the schools just accepted anyone?

It is much worse now... and it'll continue to be.
You will still have some awesome podiatry students, but there will be a lot more duds who reach graduation and residency.
That is pretty scary, for those people and all DPMs, when you couple the increasing ~$400k debt load and the increasingly saturated "foot and ankle surgeon" job market. We will start to see more and more of the chiropractic-type saturation hallmarks: weird OTC schemes and products and "treatments," aggressive ads, pay decreasing, fraud and overbilling, refer-for-profit loops with PT or PCPs or wherever.

And no, the pod schools were never very selective with 7 or 8 or 9 schools (or even with 5), but they were in no danger of closing back then. They would reject the truly bad applicants... or they'd at least flunk them out after a semester or year in. Present day, there are 11 pod schools (and they were under-filled and under-applied with 9). Four schools were added in the last 20 years. You have the same pool of roughly 700-1000 podiatry application students (many of whom get into DO or DDS or SMP or just decide not to go to podiatry after all). The acceptance rate for podiatry overall has gone from ~80% a decade ago to now nearly 100%. That is a difference which cannot be underestimated. Before the two new schools 2023, podiatry had maybe 500-600 seats, now it's 700 plus plus plus they're trying to fill. So, absolutely everyone who applies to DPM gets accepted - possible exception for multiple felony convictions or 1.x gpa?

"...In 2022 there were 716 applicants for 697 seats. This excludes the new Texas school which has its own in-state applicant pool..."

Most podaitry schools know by now that they ARE taking on water.
There are now more promo attempts by podiatry schools or those affiliated with them on social medial and SDN and elsewhere than ever before. They offer more scholarships and gimmicks. Anyone who believes the the UTRGV students are "its own in-state [Texas] applicant pool" is dumb as a rock; those students simply come from the app pool of other schools (likely southern pod schools) or go to those schools if UTRGV rejects them. There are so many pod schools/seats that even terrible MCAT/gpa students will catch on somewhere... just see pre pod forums for many examples of it (super low mcat, super low gpas, no DPM shadowing at all, etc accepted... usually still accepted with scholarship). It's disappointing.

Attrition of accepted pod students will be much less as podiatry schools look to stay profitable. Before, most of the seats would fill and the schools would want to protect their rep and board pass rates, so truly bad mcat/gpa students would not get in... or if they did, they'd usually fail out. Now, they just want to survive. Nearly all pod schools are increasingly under-filled, so they are very resistant to "losing" any student$$$.

It'll continue to be this way going forward.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

The quality of students have sucked in general. My theory is…

1) schools are more desperate, accepting anyone
2) Covid didn’t help.

The 3rd, 4th year students I’ve been around are mostly all awful. Occasionally you’ll have a good one but I’m fearful for what podiatry is to come if these are the future podiatrists we are graduating..

the rumor at my school was they autorejected quite a few people in the upcoming class of 2025, and 2026 but when no one applied ended up retroactively accepting EVERYONE lol.

 

[footshazam]

It is much worse now... and it'll continue to be.
You will still have some awesome podiatry students, but there will be a lot more duds who reach graduation and residency.
That is pretty scary, for those people and all DPMs, when you couple the increasing ~$400k debt load and the increasingly saturated "foot and ankle surgeon" job market. We will start to see more and more of the chiropractic-type saturation hallmarks: weird OTC schemes and products and "treatments," aggressive ads, pay decreasing, fraud and overbilling, refer-for-profit loops with PT or PCPs or wherever.

And no, the pod schools were never very selective with 7 or 8 or 9 schools (or even with 5), but they were in no danger of closing back then. They would reject the truly bad applicants... or they'd at least flunk them out after a semester or year in. Present day, there are 11 pod schools (and they were under-filled and under-applied with 9). Four schools were added in the last 20 years. You have the same pool of roughly 700-1000 podiatry application students (many of whom get into DO or DDS or SMP or just decide not to go to podiatry after all). The acceptance rate for podiatry overall has gone from ~80% a decade ago to now nearly 100%. That is a difference which cannot be underestimated. Before the two new schools 2023, podiatry had maybe 500-600 seats, now it's 700 plus plus plus they're trying to fill. So, absolutely everyone who applies to DPM gets accepted - possible exception for multiple felony convictions or 1.x gpa?

"...In 2022 there were 716 applicants for 697 seats. This excludes the new Texas school which has its own in-state applicant pool..."

Most podaitry schools know by now that they ARE taking on water.
There are now more promo attempts by podiatry schools or those affiliated with them on social medial and SDN and elsewhere than ever before. They offer more scholarships and gimmicks. Anyone who believes the the UTRGV students are "its own in-state [Texas] applicant pool" is dumb as a rock; those students simply come from the app pool of other schools (likely southern pod schools) or go to those schools if UTRGV rejects them. There are so many pod schools/seats that even terrible MCAT/gpa students will catch on somewhere... just see pre pod forums for many examples of it (super low mcat, super low gpas, no DPM shadowing at all, etc accepted... usually still accepted with scholarship). It's disappointing.

Attrition of accepted pod students will be much less as podiatry schools look to stay profitable. Before, most of the seats would fill and the schools would want to protect their rep and board pass rates, so truly bad mcat/gpa students would not get in... or if they did, they'd usually fail out. Now, they just want to survive. Nearly all pod schools are increasingly under-filled, so they are very resistant to "losing" any student$$$.

It'll continue to be this way going forward.

Respectfully all I hear is you guys talking about the caliber or students when what you guys should be talking about is how terrible the curriculum is at some of these schools and how garbage the clinicians are who don’t want to do their jobs and actually train the next generation.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Respectfully all I hear is you guys talking about the caliber or students when what you guys should be talking about is how terrible the curriculum is at some of these schools and how garbage the clinicians are who don’t want to do their jobs and actually train the next generation.

I think it can be both. I went through the same crappy curriculum and put in a lot of outside time to read different books, network with residents and upperclassmen etc to be ready for fourth year and residency.

The classes at least from my school are too worried about being insta famous and making dumb podiatry influencer pages than actually learning about patient care.

Also this is random and a tangent but speaking of podiatry influencers there’s definitely a loose correlation of podiatry influencers and failing part 1 of the apmle lol

 

[icebreaker32]

The caliber of student concern might be exaggerated. Many admitted students with low numbers would otherwise make a fine podiatrist, but one needs to pass certain standardized tests to be licensed and eventually pass boards.

The combination of reasonable grades AND a reasonable performance on a standardized entrance exam are the best predictors. So letting in students with too low of numbers just to give them a chance is not the right thing to do, even if the schools are desperate for applicants.

The full time clinical faculty at most podiatry schools are paid very little for those positions. Ideally the schools should pay more. The Texas school pays well it seems, but many do not. Much of the clinical education comes down to externships and ultimately residency. We all know the difference between the good and the bad for both of those is larger than it should be.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Respectfully all I hear is you guys talking about the caliber or students when what you guys should be talking about is how terrible the curriculum is at some of these schools and how garbage the clinicians are who don’t want to do their jobs and actually train the next generation.

It’s definitely both.

 

[Feli]

Respectfully all I hear is you guys talking about the caliber or students when what you guys should be talking about is how terrible the curriculum is at some of these schools and how garbage the clinicians are who don’t want to do their jobs and actually train the next generation.

It is absolutely both : the students and the curriculum/schools.

Every pod school has the same core texts and boards prep (Netter anatomy, micro, pharma, etc).
Every pod school has the same library stuff journals (JFAS, FAI, JBJS, etc), the same texts (McG, Myerson, Chang, Easley, Coughlin, etc).
Each pod school has the same clerkship and review manuals... Presby, Crozer, Prizm, whatever.
Every pod school will teach the easy PPMR clinical stuff (exam, insoles, injects, ingrown, DME, etc), and that's in books too.

I just tell students to go to whichever school costs least (tuition plus COL minus easily sustainable scholarships)... or pick one near fam/friends if that's highly important to student or their partner. Pod schools all do the same thing: give you a DPM degree and clerkships to get the real training that will matter (residency). Top students come from every pod school in every year... but they all require the work from the student.

Anyone who has done well in pod school and passed all boards knows a huge amount of it is done in the library solo.
Yes, it helps to have faculty who make the material interesting, but a krebs cycle is a krebs cycle and a sartorius is a sartorius and colchicine is colchicine. In clinicals, it helps to see more patients and more good stuff, but at pod student level, we are talking injects and XR and wart treatments... clerkships and residency is the real clinical learning (and self-directed reading and vids are the prep for that med/surg training).

They are for-profit schools at the end of the day. Forget that their tax filing might say "non-profit" and look at the cars the chancellors and real deans (not podiatry deans) are driving and the offices they sit around in. Look at the pitiful students they accept to cash checks. They're businesses. Each pod school will have a few good clinicians and mentor-material DPMs and upperclassmen to learn from, but its faculty is largely going to be mediocre podiatrists who will work for the ho-hum pay pod schools offer.

Success and clerkship smarts is largely on the pod student at the end of the day.
That is why there is tremendous variance among students on clerkships - even ones from the same school.
That variance will become even greater as the "enrollment crisis" (aka too many pod schools) decreases fail-out rates.

...With podiatry tuition at all-time highs, student loan interest rates way up, and podiatry seats/grads at all-time highs, any pod student not taking their education upon themselves will probably be found tired and wanting by match day.