Don't go to Dental School

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longhornpride said:
Also a heads up, many of these corporate chains will make you sign a contract with the devil. Every cleaning is a 4 quad SRP. Every Crown all of the sudden needs a RCT. Guess what happens when a supervisor comes in and alters your treatment plan.... you can't do jack ****. As a doctor, you fall below the office manager and usually lead assistant... usually people with very little education. They can replace you easily. Much harder to find good assistants/managers. The best part is when you get a big case and a senior doctor takes away the patient.
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This sounds similar to some of the complaints mentioned in the military threads.
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^Nice initiative @ClosetNerd828 !

Just a side comment. Reserve dentists do and have deployed in great numbers previously. The only restriction on their deployment (I believe) is that it is limited to 90 days, whereas active duty can go for up to nine months right now.

But don't join the Army Reserve thinking you won't deploy. You could, and they won't make an exemption for you if you have to run a private practice.

Also, the loan repayment and bonuses are taxable. So instead of 50K over three years, you'll have closer to 40K.
 
The OP has a valid point. Dentistry definitely is a rewarding field if you go to a school with reasonable tuition and can find a decent paying job afterwards. I just finished ortho residency last year and have $345,000 in student loans (dental school plus residency) at 6.9% interest (some are at 7.9 due to grad plus loans). It would cost $4000 a month to repay it in 10 years (the standard repayment plan through fedloan). I can't afford that right now so I'm paying $2400 for a 25 year repayment period. Hopefully I can up my payments later so I'm not spending the rest of my career just paying off loans. Long story short, choose a school with low tuition, try not to take out more money than you need, and be willing to live in an area that is not saturated so you can get a good paycheck. Look into the military as well if you're willing since they do cover tuition and living expenses (up to a point) but you'll have to serve in the military for 4 years afterwards. My friend did this and he's almost done with his army duty and will be debt free but he is currently deployed in Korea.
 
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thiennga said:
The OP has a valid point. Dentistry definitely is a rewarding field if you go to a school with reasonable tuition and can find a decent paying job afterwards. I just finished ortho residency last year and have $345,000 in student loans (dental school plus residency) at 6.9% interest (some are at 7.9 due to grad plus loans). It would cost $4000 a month to repay it in 10 years (the standard repayment plan through fedloan). I can't afford that right now so I'm paying $2400 for a 25 year repayment period. Hopefully I can up my payments later so I'm not spending the rest of my career just paying off loans. Long story short, choose a school with low tuition, try not to take out more money than you need, and be willing to live in an area that is not saturated so you can get a good paycheck. Look into the military as well if you're willing since they do cover tuition and living expenses (up to a point) but you'll have to serve in the military for 4 years afterwards. My friend did this and he's almost done with his army duty and will be debt free but he is currently deployed in Korea.
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My friends went to Iraq. How's the job market?
 
No you will most likely deploy. However GWOT is basically over but who knows what is to come. Ive deployed with Active duty and in the Reserves. Both were 12 months. Now if there is some difference for dentists ( I dont think there is)... But youre a dentist, on a huge FOB, getting tax free pay, you can defer your student loans while deployed (unless for some reason this is different for Medical Professional loans -again I dont think it is but I have done 0 research on that topic).... Its not the worst thing in the world.. though you will be making sacrifices...
 
The bonuses are taxed. The loan repayment is seen as 'taxable income' and is paid directly to the lender. The money itself is not taxed.. as in if you get up 20k loan repayment you will get the whole 20k not ~14k
 
Firm said:
My friends went to Iraq. How's the job market?
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Horrible in Northern Virginia. I couldn't move to another area due to family and husband's stable well paying job. I started looking a year before graduating and the only jobs available were the 2 days a month at a group practice or the full time ones were in the Blue Ridge mountains or outskirts of Maryland. Out of my class of 6, 2 went to work in corporate, 1 in private practice , 1 opened her own practice from scratch (but in an area where she's the only orthodontist) and the others bought existing offices (including me). My one friend in corporate just started working in June (a whole year after graduating) but he settled for a less desirable area. I bought a semi dying office this year (it was that or continue to be unemployed) and have been struggling to make ends meet. Hopefully things will pick up once I make a name for myself and get good word of mouth. So there are definitely jobs out there but you have to be willing to relocate.

My coresidents and I joke that we miss residency since the real world can be quite sobering. Am I saying to not do dentistry, no, but do keep in mind what the OP has said and try to make your financial/loan decisions wisely. I wish I was accepted to my state school but I ended up at a private one (less than $20k per year versus over $50K)

Also my $350k doesn't include undergrad and obviously my practice loan.

I met an oral surgeon that just graduated this year from UCLA with $440k total in debt but he didn't seem fazed so I guess it's all at how you look at it.

Best of luck to all of you.
 
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thiennga said:
Horrible in Northern Virginia. I couldn't move to another area due to family and husband's stable well paying job. I started looking a year before graduating and the only jobs available were the 2 days a month at a group practice or the full time ones were in the Blue Ridge mountains or outskirts of Maryland. Out of my class of 6, 2 went to work in corporate, 1 in private practice , 1 opened her own practice from scratch (but in an area where she's the only orthodontist) and the others bought existing offices (including me). My one friend in corporate just started working in June (a whole year after graduating) but he settled for a less desirable area. I bought a semi dying office this year (it was that or continue to be unemployed) and have been struggling to make ends meet. Hopefully things will pick up once I make a name for myself and get good word of mouth. So there are definitely jobs out there but you have to be willing to relocate.

My coresidents and I joke that we miss residency since the real world can be quite sobering. Am I saying to not do dentistry, no, but do keep in mind what the OP has said and try to make your financial/loan decisions wisely. I wish I was accepted to my state school but I ended up at a private one (less than $20k per year versus over $50K)

Also my $350k doesn't include undergrad and obviously my practice loan.

I met an oral surgeon that just graduated this year from UCLA with $440k total in debt but he didn't seem fazed so I guess it's all at how you look at it.

Best of luck to all of you.
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Oral surgeons are guaranteed $250-300k as an ASSOCIATE, he'll be okay.
 
Screwtape said:
Oral surgeons are guaranteed $250-300k as an ASSOCIATE, he'll be okay.
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Again no! There are no guarantees. My friend is busting his butt working anywhere he can to make a living as an OMFS.

The bad thing about dentistry is that you are selling something that no one wants.
 
Firm, be sure to add Atlanta, GA to the Orthodontic Axis of Evil. Lazzara is coming to a town near you. 18 residents a year, we'll soon have 54 new bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young orthodontists practicing in Atlanta. http://www.gaorthodontics.org/ To all those pre-dents who want to know how hard they have to study to become orthodontists - don't sweat it any more, baby! You don't even have to pole vault, there is no bar any more.

I finished with $500k in high interest loans and the loan payments aren't for the faint of heart when you get out of school. The advice I give dental applicants now is: apply to the 15 cheapest schools and go to the absolute cheapest one and live like a pauper, but I don't even know if that's realistic any more.

It would be tough digging out of this hole with many corporate dental jobs.

Ultimately - it just isn't easy street any more. You can still do fantastically in the profession, but it's a hell of a lot harder than it used to be. It can be done, there are going to be winners, but there are going to be many more shirt-losers than years ago.

Expectations will be a huge part of this; many pre-dental students have dreams of big money and autonomy. If expectations are tempered and you truly go into it for the love of the profession, that is fantastic and will help you greatly.
 
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Coming from pre-med background I'm absolutely appalled at how some of the posters here have reacted to the OP, as if he was some enemy of yours. I think his message is to not go into 500k debt (which is a reality at quite a few schools already, when you factor in interest). This, however, hasn't hit students yet as schools like NYU keep on raising their tuition every year all while getting more than enough applicants to fill the seats.
 
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Firm said:
Again no! There are no guarantees. My friend is busting his butt working anywhere he can to make a living as an OMFS.

The bad thing about dentistry is that you are selling something that no one wants.
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Surprised to see you say that last part as an ortho. I always figured that was a pro of orthodontics, that Pt are generally there electively.

Thanks for your contributions, I think a dose of balanced reality is always healthy around these parts.
 
allantois said:
Coming from pre-med background I'm absolutely appalled at how some of the posters here have reacted to the OP, as if he was some enemy of yours. I think his message is to not go into 500k debt (which is a reality at quite a few schools already, when you factor in interest). This, however, hasn't hit students yet as schools like NYU keep on raising their tuition every year all while getting more than enough applicants to fill the seats.
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It's really only one poster who thinks that he knows $hit but he's clueless.
 
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free99 said:
Surprised to see you say that last part as an ortho. I always figured that was a pro of orthodontics, that Pt are generally there electively.

Thanks for your contributions, I think a dose of balanced reality is always healthy around these parts.
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Ortho competes against Cars, clothes, iPhones, furniture, etc. people want straight teeth but they want the things that they can have now more.
 
Firm said:
Again no! There are no guarantees. My friend is busting his butt working anywhere he can to make a living as an OMFS.

The bad thing about dentistry is that you are selling something that no one wants.
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If you truly think this is the norm for oral surgeons it's hard to take anything you say seriously. Our school's program is constantly getting letters from OMFS practices looking to sell or hire an associate. They are all in the $250-300k range for associates and much more potential as an owner (based on revenue). These are mostly in large metro areas or mid-size areas across the nation.
 
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I know enough to research and fully understand huge life altering decisions and not to depend on unsolicited advice from anonymous posters on the internet. Though we do thank you for your deep concern. Honestly, if someone takes out 500k in loans without realizing the seriousness of it or decides to dedicate their entire life to a certain profession without fully understanding what they are doing, I don't think some random person on the internet arrogantly 'warning' them is going to do any good.
 
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ClosetNerd828 said:
I know enough to research and fully understand huge life altering decisions and not to depend on unsolicited advice from anonymous posters on the internet. Though we do thank you for your deep concern. Honestly, if someone takes out 500k in loans without realizing the seriousness of it or decides to dedicate their entire life to a certain profession without fully understanding what they are doing, I don't think some random person on the internet arrogantly 'warning' them is going to do any good.
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Aren't we all just a bunch of random internet dudes? Why listen to anyone here? I'm inclined to listen more closely to a person out in practice than to starry-eyed pre-dents and dental students . . . I definitely had a much more optimistic outlook when I was a pre-dent, and that was over 10 years ago when conversations like this were not happening, and corporate dentistry was just beginning to quietly take its foothold.
 
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ClosetNerd828 said:
I know enough to research and fully understand huge life altering decisions and not to depend on unsolicited advice from anonymous posters on the internet. Though we do thank you for your deep concern. Honestly, if someone takes out 500k in loans without realizing the seriousness of it or decides to dedicate their entire life to a certain profession without fully understanding what they are doing, I don't think some random person on the internet arrogantly 'warning' them is going to do any good.
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GTFOOH. You don't know ****.
 
On the other hand, I think I'll do quite fine as I can't imagine people not choosing me as their dentist over someone who is grumpy and aggressive :D
 
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Firm said:
GTFOOH. You don't know ****.
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Yea maybe not... Though what it sounds like to me is YOU didn't know **** when you were pre-dental student. YOU thought it would be a cake walk and you would be living the easy life making a ton of money. YOU didn't understand debt. YOU went from high school to undergrad to dental school and now 10 years later you're realizing how wrong YOU were. We get it you're an orthodontist so you're the prophet sent to us lowly pre-dents from the Dental Gods, you're word is gold. Thank you for warning us savior. I think you would fit in well in the current generation that complains about how hard life is, how other people don't know "$hit", use the term"micro-aggression" and need a safe space. If I'm still here 10 years after I graduate from Dental school "warning" dental students, I think I will concede that I made a huge mistake. You didn't come here to help anyone, you just wanted to blow off some steam.
 
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OG1 said:
Aren't we all just a bunch of random internet dudes? Why listen to anyone here? I'm inclined to listen more closely to a person out in practice than to starry-eyed pre-dents and dental students . . . I definitely had a much more optimistic outlook when I was a pre-dent, and that was over 10 years ago when conversations like this were not happening, and corporate dentistry was just beginning to quietly take its foothold.
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I'm more inclined to listen to someone that I am sitting down with looking in the eye. Which if some people haven't done then a 'random internet dude' isn't going to help any of them
 
ClosetNerd828 said:
Something wrong with being a girl?.
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Easy there, Mr. or Ms. (whichever you are) trigger-happy. Don't turn your guns on me now! Give them a night or two to rest, considering how much you've used them on poor @Firm here.
 
ClosetNerd828 said:
Yea maybe not... Though what it sounds like to me is YOU didn't know **** when you were pre-dental student. YOU thought it would be a cake walk and you would be living the easy life making a ton of money. YOU didn't understand debt. YOU went from high school to undergrad to dental school and now 10 years later you're realizing how wrong YOU were. We get it you're an orthodontist so you're the prophet sent to us lowly pre-dents from the Dental Gods, you're word is gold. Thank you for warning us savior. I think you would fit in well in the current generation that complains about how hard life is, how other people don't know "$hit", use the term"micro-aggression" and need a safe space. If I'm still here 10 years after I graduate from Dental school "warning" dental students, I think I will concede that I made a huge mistake. You didn't come here to help anyone, you just wanted to blow off some steam.
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aren't you paying dental school with the GI bill? why do you even care what the OP has to say? it has no effect on you..
 
ClosetNerd828 said:
Yea maybe not... Though what it sounds like to me is YOU didn't know **** when you were pre-dental student. YOU thought it would be a cake walk and you would be living the easy life making a ton of money. YOU didn't understand debt. YOU went from high school to undergrad to dental school and now 10 years later you're realizing how wrong YOU were. We get it you're an orthodontist so you're the prophet sent to us lowly pre-dents from the Dental Gods, you're word is gold. Thank you for warning us savior. I think you would fit in well in the current generation that complains about how hard life is, how other people don't know "$hit", use the term"micro-aggression" and need a safe space. If I'm still here 10 years after I graduate from Dental school "warning" dental students, I think I will concede that I made a huge mistake. You didn't come here to help anyone, you just wanted to blow off some steam.
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How many dental degrees do you have? How many practices have you opened? How many practice loans have you taken out? How many patients do you currently have? How many practices do you currently own? How many employees do you have? You don't know ****. You just talk ***.
 
Firm said:
Because he's a total douche.
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Excellent retort. I have yet to see you even piece together an intelligent paragraph all day. If youre stupid enough to let some pre-dental student troll you and screw with you all day like I have, I can see why you're so miserable in life.
Firm said:
How many dental degrees do you have? How many practices have you opened? How many practice loans have you taken out? How many patients do you currently have? How many practices do you currently own? How many employees do you have? You don't know ****. You just talk ***.
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You're right I'm not a dentist..... touche??
Seriously though... youre right about debt. You need to stop letting pre-dental students troll you all day like I have. You must be pretty unhappy to be online all day battling with someone who doesnt know **** only talks ****. I do it just to F with you because I just have a job.. I dont have a practice, debt, patients etc..maybe thats what you should be focusing on... This will be my last post, Ive grown weary of poking at you all day.

I do own a company though, Greentown Outdoor Excursions LLC
 
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Alright, let's all cut the bullish*t here and talk some real numbers. How much you guys bench?
 
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I am impress to see how well Firm managed to stay cool and composed given some of the answer.
Amazing that so many poster seems to thinks that its goal is to discourage pre dental in order to have less (future ) competition.
The slot open by the one choosing not to go for dental will be taken by other applicant anyway.

The big new thing is corporate, corporate practice will be VERY happy with too many dentist. Too many means that they can lower salary and work condition. It is exactly what happen in Spain, private school began forming way to many dentist (multiplying the number by no less than three ) ten years ago. Corporate practice started to appear everywhere, the results is an unemployment rate of only 30% for the dentist (only 30% because given the high number of dentist is should be more 70%) but a salary of 800 to 1000$/month in corporate practice and dentist fighting for the slot.

I do not except to see the situation develop to such an extensive level as in the US, but what you can predict in ALL scenario is a huge increase in corporate practice who will profit of all the freshly licence dentist and specialist who have to work not matter what to pay their debt. Unfortunately the increase of corporate practice density will make it harder to start a private practice.
 
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I see Dentists on DentalTown having the times of their lives from what I read on there.
 
Orthothai said:
I am impress to see how well Firm managed to stay cool and composed given some of the answer.
Amazing that so many poster seems to thinks that its goal is to discourage pre dental in order to have less (future ) competition.
The slot open by the one choosing not to go for dental will be taken by other applicant anyway.

The big new thing is corporate, corporate practice will be VERY happy with too many dentist. Too many means that they can lower salary and work condition. It is exactly what happen in Spain, private school began forming way to many dentist (multiplying the number by no less than three ) ten years ago. Corporate practice started to appear everywhere, the results is an unemployment rate of only 30% for the dentist (only 30% because given the high number of dentist is should be more 70%) but a salary of 800 to 1000$/month in corporate practice and dentist fighting for the slot.

I do not except to see the situation develop to such an extensive level as in the US, but what you can predict in ALL scenario is a huge increase in corporate practice who will profit of all the freshly licence dentist and specialist who have to work not matter what to pay their debt. Unfortunately the increase of corporate practice density will make it harder to start a private practice.
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Nice first post, bruh.
 
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DKB15 said:
I see Dentists on DentalTown having the times of their lives from what I read on there.
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Do not look at what the situation is now for dentist with implanted practice and loan payed, but what it will in 5 years when you graduates.
In France like in the US the dentist had a very good time 20 years ago and a good time 10 years ago.
The thing is if you go to dentaltown the one speaking with confidence of their practice are the one with experience, meaning that their own their practice, translation they are not freshly graduated. Same thing on the French forum a not so "newbie" in private practice is at least 35 years old , the "experienced" have at least 45 years old.
So yes if you listen to dentist working for 20 years with every loan payed and their practice adapted to the new environment everything rock, from their point of view the overproduction of dentist is a good thing. Well establish practice will not be affected (the competition being at the level of the one starting practice and having to develop a patient base so not really the big reconstruction work, their skill set is also well develop so they can capt more patient than the less experienced), and if you have some cash on the side, all this new graduated in debt will be the perfect work force for expanding.

Their professional reality will not be yours.
 
The real issue at hand is....why do so many people on here treat dentistry, dental school, and dentist as proper nouns?
 
Perhaps because English is not a first language for some of the poster ?
 
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ClosetNerd828 said:
Excellent retort. I have yet to see you even piece together an intelligent paragraph all day. If youre stupid enough to let some pre-dental student troll you and screw with you all day like I have, I can see why you're so miserable in life.

You're right I'm not a dentist..... touche??
Seriously though... youre right about debt. You need to stop letting pre-dental students troll you all day like I have. You must be pretty unhappy to be online all day battling with someone who doesnt know **** only talks ****. I do it just to F with you because I just have a job.. I dont have a practice, debt, patients etc..maybe thats what you should be focusing on... This will be my last post, Ive grown weary of poking at you all day.

I do own a company though, Greentown Outdoor Excursions LLC
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Glad that you finally admit that you are a troll and don't add much value to this thread. How old are you? 12?
 
Cello said:
Just because @Firm is saying something you don't like, doesn't give anyone free-reign to unleash a torrent of ad hominems... Certainly some of what Firm is saying is true. The interest on student loans IS criminal, and I hope that will be a factor in electing the next president.
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How is it criminal? My parents paid 8+% on student loans when they were in college for undergrad. Dental school interest rates are lower than that.

Sure, the loan debt is large but there are other factors to consider and it really isn't ALL about the money either. I'm curious how much Firm took out in loans and how long it took to repay and what his salary was for the first 10 years of practice on average???
 
"
Sure, the loan debt is large but there are other factors to consider and it really isn't ALL about the money either. I'm curious how much Firm took out in loans and how long it took to repay and what his salary was for the first 10 years of practice on average???

"

Yes this info would be relevant if the same conditions could be applied to the new student, but the aim of the OP is justly to explain that things are different, very different.
I read Firm on orthotown and I can tell you that he/she is very business oriented. When he/she tell you that 500K or 300K of debt could be better invested than in an dental , orthodontic formation he/she means exactly that. He/she is also serious about not going this way if he/she had to do everything again.

I am a French expatriate and in contact with French dentist who wish to work abroad, the US, Australia and New Zealand are in the DO NOT GO categories.
 
Time to start looking into PA as a backup career lol.

Random Q: Do any of you practicing dentists recommend me use what little free time I have in DSchool, to work part time as a male stripper, to earn some extra dough on the side? How is the market for that? Anyone know?
 
Orthothai said:
"
Sure, the loan debt is large but there are other factors to consider and it really isn't ALL about the money either. I'm curious how much Firm took out in loans and how long it took to repay and what his salary was for the first 10 years of practice on average???

"

Yes this info would be relevant if the same conditions could be applied to the new student, but the aim of the OP is justly to explain that things are different, very different.
I read Firm on orthotown and I can tell you that he/she is very business oriented. When he/she tell you that 500K or 300K of debt could be better invested than in an dental , orthodontic formation he/she means exactly that. He/she is also serious about not going this way if he/she had to do everything again.

I am a French expatriate and in contact with French dentist who wish to work abroad, the US, Australia and New Zealand are in the DO NOT GO categories.
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I love when people say that $300-$500k could be better invested somewhere else. Where am I supposed to get that much money to invest?

Hell, I'm 30 and if I added up my income from my entire lifetime, I probably wouldn't even have made $300K yet.

I do agree that anything over $300K is too much to borrow for school.
 
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Hyunin1210 said:
To my knowledge even corporate positions depending on the contract are more around $100,000-120,000+ a year even in saturated areas. Why do you say $90,000? Has the salary gone down that much? I would definitely not accept a job that pays that little especially if I have 500k in debt. I would move and find anywhere that will offer me a better deal.
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I know several orthos who only have a job 1-2 days per week, the corps will hire whoever will work for the least amount of money
 
bsmcga0 said:
I know several orthos who only have a job 1-2 days per week, the corps will hire whoever will work for the least amount of money
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I have heard similar as well, but can they take multiple jobs in the same corporation at different locations?
 
Hyunin1210 said:
I have heard similar as well, but can they take multiple jobs in the same corporation at different locations?
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there are no jobs, they are looking for any work they can get
 
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