DO schools trying to dismiss students?

[joey jake]

Is this true? I've heard that DO schools are making it easier to dismiss students, because there are not enough rotation and residency spots. Has anyone heard of this theory?

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[DrStephenStrange]

Is this true? I've heard that DO schools are making it easier to dismiss students, because there are not enough rotation and residency spots. Has anyone heard of this theory?

That would look bad on the school and possibly earn them an accreditation warning. DO schools like to boast their attrition/retention rates, COMLEX pass rates, and Match rates. So I really don't think any of them would actively try to fail students out. Most DO schools will probably try to get you all the help and resources possible to try to get you to move forward.

 

[SooConfused]

Is this true? I've heard that DO schools are making it easier to dismiss students, because there are not enough rotation and residency spots. Has anyone heard of this theory?

Where did you hear this?

 

[joey jake]

Where did you hear this?

My classmates. They said their are not enough rotation and residency positions.

 

[joey jake]

That would look bad on the school and possibly earn them an accreditation warning. DO schools like to boast their attrition/retention rates, COMLEX pass rates, and Match rates. So I really don't think any of them would actively try to fail students out. Most DO schools will probably try to get you all the help and resources possible to try to get you to move forward.

I've heard that things are changing. I've seen a number of students leave.

 

[ortnakas]

Have not heard this.

 

[joey jake]

Does anyone know if the graduation percentages have changed? How will they accommodate all the new schools?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It’s probably a confounding variable related to lower median GPA/MCAT

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Idk if it's for rotations, but my schools attrition rate these last couple years has been horrific. We've lost like 35 people, most the first semester but quite a few people got kicked out in second year too. Our admin are really really unforgiving.

 

[SooConfused]

My classmates. They said their are not enough rotation and residency positions.

My understanding is that rotation slots are bought and paid for directly by the schools, so they control exactly how many are available. There is no external limit on them.

I am also pretty sure that there are more than enough residency positions for every US medical student, since thousands of slots each year are filled by IMGs and FMGs. I don't see how it would help a DO school to easily dismiss adequately performing students, rather than giving them an opportunity to match ahead of applicants from the Caribbean and other foreign schools.

If new DO schools are enrolling some weak students, because that's all they can get, and if some of them are later being dismissed, that's nothing more than a function of their weakness. It's got nothing to do with there not being rotations or residencies available for them.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

I personally never understood the idea that schools that are more predatory are more likely to dismiss students. They are literally forgoing 60-250k of tuition depending on when the student is dismissed. And they have no real way to recoup the money considering transfers are uncommon and there are limits on class size. COCA requires there to be enough rotations for each student so the rotations exist somewhere.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Pretty sure this is nonsense. COCA requires schools to graduate a certain percentage over a certain time period. The leaders of your school get replaced when that doesn’t happen.

Also, the most expensive part of your education is the first two years. Schools want you to go to rotations because it’s much more profitable for them.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Never heard of it

Classic DO things are mandatory attendance and creative replies when you ask about where the tuition money is going

 

[joey jake]

Idk if it's for rotations, but my schools attrition rate these last couple years has been horrific. We've lost like 35 people, most the first semester but quite a few people got kicked out in second year too. Our admin are really really unforgiving.

Why are they so strict?

 

[Prehealth1011]

Why are they so strict?

They need to maintain the high standards of our education.

What's the point of med school really if you can't treat prostate issues by pressing on the lateral thigh?

 

[PikminOC]

I personally never understood the idea that schools that are more predatory are more likely to dismiss students. They are literally forgoing 60-250k of tuition depending on when the student is dismissed. And they have no real way to recoup the money considering transfers are uncommon and there are limits on class size. COCA requires there to be enough rotations for each student so the rotations exist somewhere.

Many do schools require students setup their own senior year rotations which is a huge pain

 

[PikminOC]

Pretty sure this is nonsense. COCA requires schools to graduate a certain percentage over a certain time period. The leaders of your school get replaced when that doesn’t happen.

Also, the most expensive part of your education is the first two years. Schools want you to go to rotations because it’s much more profitable for them.

They have to pay for the rotation spots right?

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Many do schools require students setup their own senior year rotations which is a huge pain

Yes, but I think thats almost all DO schools at this point. Its a pain but it can help get you in the specialty and region that you want.

They have to pay for the rotation spots right?

Its only like $500 a rotation.

 

[PikminOC]

Yes, but I think thats almost all DO schools at this point. Its a pain but it can help get you in the specialty and region that you want.



Its only like $500 a rotation.

Do you have a citation for that? Do the do students seeking senior rotations have to pay it themselves?
With all the students that rotate it's still money.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Do you have a citation for that? Do the do students seeking senior rotations have to pay it themselves?
With all the students that rotate it's still money.

Usually no, they don't pay for the rotation. They will have to pay for travel and short term housing which can be expensive. I go to RVU, and it is well known that University of Colorado makes RVU students pay 2k for 1 rotation. Apparently its a state legislative issue, they only want CU students (state funded?) to rotate. I think other state university have policies like this. So you can run in to stuff like that.

I try to find it

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Why are they so strict?

My speculation is that it's the tiniest modicum of power have gone to the head of admin.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Usually no, they don't pay for the rotation. They will have to pay for travel and short term housing which can be expensive. I go to RVU, and it is well known that University of Colorado makes RVU students pay 2k for 1 rotation. Apparently its a state legislative issue, they only want CU students (state funded?) to rotate. I think other state university have policies like this. So you can run in to stuff like that.

I try to find it

I found it. It was in an email from Colorado medical society back in 2020, trying to recruit preceptors during the pandemic. This may be special circumstance due to the pandemic and is also probably specific to RVU. Also, I'm sure they have different deals with hospitals and larger practices. But I think it gives you an idea of the going rate. This also may have been a shot in the dark, and I have no idea if anyone took them up on the offer.

 

[PikminOC]

Admin are despicable.

Wait until you actually work. Admins are worse then

 

[PikminOC]

I found it. It was in an email from Colorado medical society back in 2020, trying to recruit preceptors during the pandemic. This may be special circumstance due to the pandemic and is also probably specific to RVU. Also, I'm sure they have different deals with hospitals and larger practices. But I think it gives you an idea of the going rate. This also may have been a shot in the dark, and I have no idea if anyone took them up on the offer.

I've seen offers like this. But as you showed at uc, the pay is much higher to the hospitals.

 

[Ho0v-man]

They have to pay for the rotation spots right?

Yes and no. They pay insurance coverage for you on rotations. But as you’ll see when you apply for aways, that’s literally <1 day of tuition to cover you for the whole month.

The amount paid between schools is highly variable. My school wouldn’t pay much. $500 or less. They’d do their best to just offer CME credit and nothing else.

I believe the most I’ve heard of was $1000/ month at a different school. LECOM famously pays nothing for all rotations.

Then you should consider the administrative burden. Multiple admins are micromanaging your day-to-day in preclinical. Organizing and paying all these docs and PhDs ain’t cheap. But during clinical rotations, they tell you which place you’re going to, tell you to turn your evals in on time, and pay for a shelf exam at the end (this is also not that expensive).

Then there’s 4th year. This is the real cash grab. Your school asks you to set up everything on your own and pay s for nothing. The only cost is having someone check that your evals are in on time and that you have the rotations necessary to graduate. They REALLY want you to go to fourth year.

Edit: just realized I was explaining this to an attending and not a preclinical med student lol. You asked another poster about a citation for cost. My preceptors openly disclosed how much they got.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

They need to maintain the high standards of our education.

What's the point of med school really if you can't treat prostate issues by pressing on the lateral thigh?

 

[PikminOC]

Yes and no. They pay insurance coverage for you on rotations. But as you’ll see when you apply for aways, that’s literally <1 day of tuition to cover you for the whole month.

The amount paid between schools is highly variable. My school wouldn’t pay much. $500 or less. They’d do their best to just offer CME credit and nothing else.

I believe the most I’ve heard of was $1000/ month at a different school. LECOM famously pays nothing for all rotations.

Then you should consider the administrative burden. Multiple admins are micromanaging your day-to-day in preclinical. Organizing and paying all these docs and PhDs ain’t cheap. But during clinical rotations, they tell you which place you’re going to, tell you to turn your evals in on time, and pay for a shelf exam at the end (this is also not that expensive).

Then there’s 4th year. This is the real cash grab. Your school asks you to set up everything on your own and pay s for nothing. The only cost is having someone check that your evals are in on time and that you have the rotations necessary to graduate. They REALLY want you to go to fourth year.

Edit: just realized I was explaining this to an attending and not a preclinical med student lol. You asked another poster about a citation for cost. My preceptors openly disclosed how much they got.

My corporate hospital friends tell me how much they get paid from the hospital for precepting. But they don't know how much the hospital gets paid.

 

[PikminOC]

They need to maintain the high standards of our education.

What's the point of med school really if you can't treat prostate issues by pressing on the lateral thigh?

People fail out of MD school also. People think once they get in everyone gets thru but it's not true. People also fail the USMLE exams too.

 

[Dr Meow]

ive heard this theory also from other students. not sure if true

 

[TruthInMedEd]

Never heard of it

Classic DO things are mandatory attendance and creative replies when you ask about where the tuition money is going

Don't forget, a good chunk of tuition money goes into what we are talking about here, clinical rotations. State schools do not pay for clinical rotations for the most part, though that is slowly changing as well. Most DO schools are paying, and depending upon how competitive the region the school is located within, those payments add up. If you are on a monthly rotation and each preceptor gets $1000 per rotation (over national average, but quickly becoming the defacto amount paid), then OMS3 costs the school $12,000 directly + money that goes into resources to sustain the education at these sites that are spread apart from each other. Tack on $10,000 for OMS4 rotations. Most DO students have no idea that close to all of the OMS1-3 tuition supports preclinical expenses and OMS4 supports rotation expenses. That leaves about 1/2-2/3 of the OMS4 tuition left to put into program improvements, etc. The profit margin is nowhere near as large as most believe it to be.

 

[TruthInMedEd]

Why are they so strict?

because they refuse to let students who fail multiple classes progress? Yep, too strict! Everyone needs to understand that the admins job depends upon the success of the students. People dont keep losing coaches around, nor do they tend to keep losing admin around. However, they are also charged with protecting the public from people who cant perform at the level necessary to function as a physician. How many of you have seen a top quartile student dismissed from school? Think about the students you have seen "disappear" and what you know about their effort and academic achievements. This is no different than business school, law school, vet school, the list goes on and on.

 

[joey jake]

because they refuse to let students who fail multiple classes progress? Yep, too strict! Everyone needs to understand that the admins job depends upon the success of the students. People dont keep losing coaches around, nor do they tend to keep losing admin around. However, they are also charged with protecting the public from people who cant perform at the level necessary to function as a physician. How many of you have seen a top quartile student dismissed from school? Think about the students you have seen "disappear" and what you know about their effort and academic achievements. This is no different than business school, law school, vet school, the list goes on and on.

why so angry? Why have dismissals gone up in many schools? GPA and MCAT have been increasing, so it doesn't seem due to the student intelligence.

 

[joey jake]

People fail out of MD school also. People think once they get in everyone gets thru but it's not true. People also fail the USMLE exams too.

DOs have much higher rates of dismissals and repeats because of the stupid omm

 

[TruthInMedEd]

DOs have much higher rates of dismissals and repeats because of the stupid omm

Just because you don't like OMM, your assessment of attrition in the profession might be a little "out of alignment"! The data is very similar on both sides of the education system. Maybe it is because medical school itself is tough?

 

[joey jake]

View attachment 357509View attachment 357510
Just because you don't like OMM, your assessment of attrition in the profession might be a little "out of alignment"! The data is very similar on both sides of the education system. Maybe it is because medical school itself is tough?

That's interesting. It seems to be much higher. Wonder if they fudge the numbers?

 

[TruthInMedEd]

why so angry? Why have dismissals gone up in many schools? GPA and MCAT have been increasing, so it doesn't seem due to the student intelligence.

Not angry at all. Just providing what I believe to be truth via my observations to things that are common misunderstandings or misplacement of blame. GPA and MCATs are being discovered to not predict medical school performance nearly as well as originally thought to. Why do you think schools are looking for other metrics to use to identify students at risk for failure. If it was as simple as MCAT, then things such as CASPER would not exist. That is why things like emotional intelligence are being studied in medical students to see why high scoring premeds fail and others who don't score as well excel in medical school. GPA varies widely depending upon your undergraduate institution. A 3.7 at one is not equivalent to a 3.7 at another. You are right that all medical students are intelligent. I believe all medical students have proven themselves smart enough that they SHOULD pass. In the end, some don't and are dismissed. It is much more rare for a student to be dismissed for other reasons such as professionalism violations, etc. So blaming the school or the osteopathic education systems incorporation of OMM on attrition rate just seems misguided to me.

 

[Prehealth1011]

People fail out of MD school also. People think once they get in everyone gets thru but it's not true. People also fail the USMLE exams too.

It's possible I don't disagree. Too lazy to look up the stats

I went to a sht school by sdn standards and name of the game was definitely to get people to graduate, not to hold people back. I'm a jaded DO but this wasn't a concern from my end. Just having some fun that's all

 

[TruthInMedEd]

That's interesting. It seems to be much higher. Wonder if they fudge the numbers?

Numbers like this cant really be fudged. It is analogous to calories when watching your diet, students in vs students out. COCA requires matriculation dates and graduation or dismissal dates for students on a regular timeline as well as off-cycle students. Students are allowed 150% of the standard enrollment time to finish the curriculum (Standard 6, Element 6.3). This is why reports like I provided above show 4, 5 and 6 year graduation rates. Unfortunately, I couldn't find it broken down as such for COM's, but the end result is how many made it to graduation, so assume that is the equivalent of the 6 year results for MD schools. If the numbers don't add up, then Standard 11, Element 11.5: Program and Student Outcomes will be deemed non-met. This is a CORE element by COCA and a COM is eliminated from full accreditation consideration if a single CORE element is un-met. By the current Standards, this puts a school at best into Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring, which is a 4 year accreditation with required interval updates and annual reports. This is a big deal for DO schools and every one wants to avoid that status, not to mention the potential legal issues this could get into with the US Department of Education and State Education Boards, etc.

 

[SooConfused]

why so angry? Why have dismissals gone up in many schools? GPA and MCAT have been increasing, so it doesn't seem due to the student intelligence.

Don't be so sure. It's more likely that increasing GPAs and MCATs are the result of ever increasing grade inflation and familiarity with the MCAT than people actually getting smarter.

If the pool is not actually more talented than in the past, then the fact that a lot more DO seats exist now than 10 or 20 years could mean that the people washing out really are not good enough, and would never have been admitted in the first place in the past, before the new schools created more spots.

As others have said, unlike predatory Caribbean schools whose business models depend on bringing people in and then weeding them out, no US MD or DO school has a reputational or financial incentive to enroll people and then later dismiss them.

 

[Dr Meow]

Don't be so sure. It's more likely that increasing GPAs and MCATs are the result of ever increasing grade inflation and familiarity with the MCAT than people actually getting smarter.

If the pool is not actually more talented than in the past, then the fact that a lot more DO seats exist now than 10 or 20 years could mean that the people washing out really are not good enough, and would never have been admitted in the first place in the past, before the new schools created more spots.

As others have said, unlike predatory Caribbean schools whose business models depend on bringing people in and then weeding them out, no US MD or DO school has a reputational or financial incentive to enroll people and then later dismiss them.

Competition is directly proportional to intellect is it not?
It's not that people are getting smarter, but just that because there's a lot more applicants, there are more "smarter" people that can be taken. Since the MCAT is a percentile based exam, there's no such thing as "grade inflation" since it's calculated relative to your peers.

As one commenter in a thread about diagnostic radiology pointed out, a PD noticed that during the 2022 cycle, there is so many more 260+ Step1 Scorers than in past years.

 

[joey jake]

ive heard this theory also from other students. not sure if true

Did you notice a lot of students who had to repeat or were dismissed? I have noticed a number who just barely missed who were put on probation. And once on probation, if you fail just one class--like an OMM practical--you are out.

 

[SooConfused]

Competition is directly proportional to intellect is it not?
It's not that people are getting smarter, but just that because there's a lot more applicants, there are more "smarter" people that can be taken. Since the MCAT is a percentile based exam, there's no such thing as "grade inflation" since it's calculated relative to your peers.

As one commenter in a thread about diagnostic radiology pointed out, a PD noticed that during the 2022 cycle, there is so many more 260+ Step1 Scorers than in past years.

Actually, no. The MCAT is not rescaled each year. This is why a 500 was the 50%-ile when the test was revised in 2015, and it was the 45%-ile last year.

 

[Dr Meow]

Did you notice a lot of students who had to repeat or were dismissed? I have noticed a number who just barely missed who were put on probation. And once on probation, if you fail just one class--like an OMM practical--you are out.

Yeah I've heard from students being failed not based on quantitative exams

 

[joey jake]

Yeah I've heard from students being failed not based on quantitative exams

What disturbs me greatly is that students are being failed and put on probation for things like OMM practical which is very subjective. So that is what led me to believe that schools are finding ways to dismiss students for no good reason.

So if you fail on the multiple choice exams I can see how that would lead to low board scores and would justify probation or even dismissal. but if you fail things like DPR or OMM practical but pass the rest, and they put you on probation or dismiss you it would appear that they are finding ways to have you removed.

 

[SooConfused]

What disturbs me greatly is that students are being failed and put on probation for things like OMM practical which is very subjective. So that is what led me to believe that schools are finding ways to dismiss students for no good reason.

Again, why? What's in it for the schools to want to weed people out who don't deserve it, and who would otherwise go on to be good doctors? High attrition rates are not exactly a positive metric for schools. Caribbean schools do it for the money, but they don't care about their reputations.

 

[joey jake]

Again, why? What's in it for the schools to want to weed people out who don't deserve it, and who would otherwise go on to be good doctors? High attrition rates are not exactly a positive metric for schools. Caribbean schools do it for the money, but they don't care about their reputations.

That's what I am asking here. I'm not sure why, but this is what I have observed.

 

[SooConfused]

That's what I am asking here. I'm not sure why, but this is what I have observed.

Fair enough, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense. My feeling is that what you are observing, beyond the normal attrition all schools experience, both DO and MD, is likely explained by marginal candidates being admitted by newer schools just not being strong enough to successfully complete the program.

There really is no other explanation, since it does not benefit either the schools or the students for schools to manufacture subjective reasons to expel otherwise viable students. As many people have already noted, unlike Caribbean schools, there are rotation and residency slots for every qualified student at every US MD and DO school.

 

[PikminOC]

It does benefit for profit schools to have people stay an extra year or two.

 

[PikminOC]

Higher scores may be because there are better test prep resources out there also

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Don't forget, a good chunk of tuition money goes into what we are talking about here, clinical rotations. State schools do not pay for clinical rotations for the most part, though that is slowly changing as well. Most DO schools are paying, and depending upon how competitive the region the school is located within, those payments add up. If you are on a monthly rotation and each preceptor gets $1000 per rotation (over national average, but quickly becoming the defacto amount paid), then OMS3 costs the school $12,000 directly + money that goes into resources to sustain the education at these sites that are spread apart from each other. Tack on $10,000 for OMS4 rotations. Most DO students have no idea that close to all of the OMS1-3 tuition supports preclinical expenses and OMS4 supports rotation expenses. That leaves about 1/2-2/3 of the OMS4 tuition left to put into program improvements, etc. The profit margin is nowhere near as large as most believe it to be.

there shouldnt be a profit margin