Dentists over the age 65 growing in numbers.

[Cold Front]

Since the 2008 recession, dentists age 65+ jumped in numbers - and there are now more than 30,000 of them. Many are in their 70’s, few are in their 80’s. This could get worse if retirement planning gets more difficult and complicated for future dentists, specially when more and more young dentists are graduating with very high student loans today.

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[Blueshirts]

This follows the general trend accross the board for all occupations? But without coming off as being crass, should there be any reason for this, aside from money mismanagement? Assuming that those in their 70s and 80s are doing it out of necessity. I haven't seen anything on any other forums regarding this kind of situation before, I'd be curious to know why this is the case

 

[deleted480308]

So?

 

[Cold Front]

Assuming that those in their 70s and 80s are doing it out of necessity. I haven't seen anything on any other forums regarding this kind of situation before, I'd be curious to know why this is the case

When life expectancy increases, retirement age would natural increase. I honestly think the traditional retirement age at 60-65 is evolving, and many now consider that to be in late 60s to early 70s.

It would also be interesting to know what percentage of those 30,000+ dentists over 65 are specialists - I would imaging at least half. For instance, orthodontists generally retire much later than general dentists.

I also think most of the older dentists own their own practices and enjoy the easy life (light schedule, no debt, easy money, etc). They probably work to keep their body and mental health active. That’s a powerful “purpose” at that age.


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[FutureDent020]

Yea, this doesn’t seem to correlate with our generation’s dilemma. My dad, who is younger than that is already retired, same with my father in law. They were successful, probably similar mid/ lower 6 figure salaries like many dentists who thrived during the 80’s and 90’s. They lost money during the crash as everyone did, but they still retired by age 63-65 as a result of smart investments and controlled spending. Now 30-40 years from now would be more interesting to look at and compares to now.

Edit: they weren’t dentists

 

[Saddleshoes]

Random thoughts on this topic…

• Dentistry is not as physically demanding as dentists themselves are lead to believe. There is no medical/physical reason a healthy dentist over 65 to hang it up.
• Dentistry is still a great job. Lot of us love it and will keep doing it, long after we no longer “have to” do it.
• Some of these boomers bought into the “Me Generation” idea and blew their cash as soon as they made it. They simply cannot retire because they have nothing put away.
• The over 65 dentist is in big demand as an associate for the corporate dental operations. The old guy can take less pay because he has no Student Loan, no need for Health insurance due to Medicare, his house is paid for and he hasn’t had a car payment this century. The old guy needs less “onboarding time” too.
• Many Dentists are “One Trick Ponies”. Their whole identity is tied to being a dentist. Life after dentistry scares the wits out of these guys.

 

[2TH MVR]

When it comes to retirement ... there are plenty of variables. I enjoy reading when dentists extrapolate their future earnings and expenses and decide at what age they plan to retire. It doesn't always work that way. Life is not a well thought out plan. **** happens. Plenty of economic uncertainties lies ahead. Recessions (2008), current coronavirus situation, political environment, divorces, lawsuits, etc. etc. How about when dentists live the opulent doctor life, spend heavily .... and then plan on using their future practice sale for retirement. Guess what? More times then not ... the practice is not worth what they think it is worth. Any gains on the sale will be taxed personally. Most older practices are almost fully depreciated meaning nothing is left as a tax write off to offset the gains.

So, unfortunately there will be those poor planners that have to work well into their 60s, 70s. They do not have a choice. Unfortunately .... those dentists who attended the uber expensive DS most likely will be in this group.

The others? Well ... they planned well. Have some money, but could always use more money. They want to keep their mind and bodies involved. The idea of sitting around every day doing nothing but posting on sdn would drive me crazy. I personally plan to keep on working as long as the work is involving.

 

[schmoob]

Since the 2008 recession, dentists age 65+ jumped in numbers - and there are now more than 30,000 of them. Many are in their 70’s, few are in their 80’s. This could get worse if retirement planning gets more difficult and complicated for future dentists, specially when more and more young dentists are graduating with very high student loans today.

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Yeah, and they are all dental school faculty

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah, and they are all dental school faculty

64 schools... maybe 20-40 older dentists (65+) each, that’s about 1,-2,000 total. How do you account the other 98%?


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[schmoob]

64 schools... maybe 20-40 older dentists (65+) each, that’s about 1,-2,000 total. How do you account the other 98%?


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I think you’re figures are too low. The clinical faculty >65yo far outnumber the younger staff. Rising tuition costs do not encourage younger dentists into academia due to the low pay.
Of course there are the few “cool” floor faculty that do it for fun as an adjunct position, and naturally those are the ones everyone tries to work with. But the majority are older, retired from private practice, and just need something to do. I’ve had faculty in their late 80s and 90s.

However, the numbers don’t lie and I absolutely agree with what you’re saying.

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

My grandfather is 78 and practices one day a week as an associate just to get out of the house. What share of full time dentists is over 65? What percent are still practice owners at that age?

 

[Cold Front]

I think you’re figures are too low. The clinical faculty >65yo far outnumber the younger staff.

How many faculty at your program are over 65?



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[2TH MVR]

3 dentists older than 70 at the Corp I work at. A perio who is 72 who works 3 days a week. He is very fit and enjoys complaining about the gps placing implants at the Corp. Another orthodontist who is 73. Not in the best shape, but works out of 3 locations. The ortho has plenty of money. Not sure why he works as hard as he does. My buddy the managing dentist at one location just turned 60. Dude works 6 days per week. Another GP is 73. Pretty sure he is crazy. I just turned 57. Another OMFS is in his early 50's. A few dentists in their early and mid 40's. The remainder and vast majority of the dentists/specialists are new grads right out of school. Us older dentists enjoy watching the younger dentists running around all stressed out. Good entertainment value.

Where's an old dentist going to find work? I would suggest that the growing prevalence of dental corps has allowed more old dentists another way to continue practicing. I considered working at a dental school, but the pay was less and i might have needed to work 5 days a week. Corp gives an older dentist options on how many days you want to work.

As for the older dentists practicing in their private practices forever. Wouldn't they want to sell their practice BEFORE it is worth nothing?

Bottom line. The CURRENT generation of practicing older dentists probably have secure retirements. They are probably practicing to bring in a little more cash, to be relevent, and to have social interaction. The concern will be the future generation of high debt dentists as they become old geezers.

 

[Cold Front]

3 dentists older than 70 at the Corp I work at. A perio who is 72 who works 3 days a week. He is very fit and enjoys complaining about the gps placing implants at the Corp. Another orthodontist who is 73. Not in the best shape, but works out of 3 locations. The ortho has plenty of money. Not sure why he works as hard as he does. My buddy the managing dentist at one location just turned 60. Dude works 6 days per week. Another GP is 73. Pretty sure he is crazy. I just turned 57. Another OMFS is in his early 50's. A few dentists in their early and mid 40's. The remainder and vast majority of the dentists/specialists are new grads right out of school. Us older dentists enjoy watching the younger dentists running around all stressed out. Good entertainment value.

Where's an old dentist going to find work? I would suggest that the growing prevalence of dental corps has allowed more old dentists another way to continue practicing. I considered working at a dental school, but the pay was less and i might have needed to work 5 days a week. Corp gives an older dentist options on how many days you want to work.

As for the older dentists practicing in their private practices forever. Wouldn't they want to sell their practice BEFORE it is worth nothing?

Bottom line. The CURRENT generation of practicing older dentists probably have secure retirements. They are probably practicing to bring in a little more cash, to be relevent, and to have social interaction. The concern will be the future generation of high debt dentists as they become old geezers.

Well said. About half of the dentists within 10 miles radius from my offices are over 60. Some work 7 days a week, crazy!

Current older dentists have options now, which is a good thing. I would seriously consider a corporate gig if I was above 55 today. I also would consider being on the local dental board or get into some forensic dentistry if money was no longer a pressure on my mind.

Younger dentists will just have to grind 20+ years to payback their big debt. I can see more of them retiring in their 70s.


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[ToothJockey]

Well said. About half of the dentists within 10 miles radius from my offices are over 60. Some work 7 days a week, crazy!

Current older dentists have options now, which is a good thing. I would seriously consider a corporate gig if I was above 55 today. I also would consider being on the local dental board or get into some forensic dentistry if money was no longer a pressure on my mind.

Younger dentists will just have to grind 20+ years to payback their big debt. I can see more of them retiring in their 70s.


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500k invested into the stock market (SP500 for example) at 22 will turn into millions by the time a person is 60 or 70 years old.

Instead of investing that money into the stock market a lot of us (myself included) are spending it to get an education. I'm not exactly a financially savvy person, and I suspect most dentists aren't either. Maybe that's why we retire so late LOL. I've been reading lots of WCI/Bogleheads/FIRE stuff so hopefully I don't make too many more financial mistakes in the future.

 

[schmoob]

How many faculty at your program are over 65?



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I can’t say for sure but between preclinical, clinical, and PG it’s easily over 60. Conservatively.

 

[schmoob]

500k invested into the stock market (SP500 for example) at 22 will turn into millions by the time a person is 60 or 70 years old.

Instead of investing that money into the stock market a lot of us (myself included) are spending it to get an education. I'm not exactly a financially savvy person, and I suspect most dentists aren't either. Maybe that's why we retire so late LOL. I've been reading lots of WCI/Bogleheads/FIRE stuff so hopefully I don't make too many more financial mistakes in the future.

You’re absolutely right, but what will you do for money for those 50 years in between?

 

[charlestweed]

3 dentists older than 70 at the Corp I work at. A perio who is 72 who works 3 days a week. He is very fit and enjoys complaining about the gps placing implants at the Corp. Another orthodontist who is 73. Not in the best shape, but works out of 3 locations. The ortho has plenty of money. Not sure why he works as hard as he does. My buddy the managing dentist at one location just turned 60. Dude works 6 days per week. Another GP is 73. Pretty sure he is crazy. I just turned 57. Another OMFS is in his early 50's. A few dentists in their early and mid 40's. The remainder and vast majority of the dentists/specialists are new grads right out of school. Us older dentists enjoy watching the younger dentists running around all stressed out. Good entertainment value.

Where's an old dentist going to find work? I would suggest that the growing prevalence of dental corps has allowed more old dentists another way to continue practicing. I considered working at a dental school, but the pay was less and i might have needed to work 5 days a week. Corp gives an older dentist options on how many days you want to work.

As for the older dentists practicing in their private practices forever. Wouldn't they want to sell their practice BEFORE it is worth nothing?

Bottom line. The CURRENT generation of practicing older dentists probably have secure retirements. They are probably practicing to bring in a little more cash, to be relevent, and to have social interaction. The concern will be the future generation of high debt dentists as they become old geezers.

Dentistry is a wonderful profession because you can get an associate job at any age. Most engineers, who got laid off in their mid to late 50s, can't find another job with similar pay. Working 5-6 days/week as a dentist is hard but I think it's fun working only 1-2 days a week when you are an older dentist....it's better than sitting around at home reading the SDN threads all day long.

 

[theleatherwalle]

Dentistry is a wonderful profession because you can get an associate job at any age. Most engineers, who got laid off in their mid to late 50s, can't find another job with similar pay. Working 5-6 days/week as a dentist is hard but I think it's fun working only 1-2 days a week when you are an older dentist....it's better than sitting around at home reading the SDN threads all day long.

We had 2 dentists who were 70 in my market back when I was with a DSO. They were very slow and usually caused a fair bit of problems, but they still worked 1-2 days week. I'd personally sit around and read sdn threads

 

[DDS9994]

We had 2 dentists who were 70 in my market back when I was with a DSO. They were very slow and usually caused a fair bit of problems, but they still worked 1-2 days week. I'd personally sit around and read sdn threads

Dentistry is a wonderful profession because you can get an associate job at any age. Most engineers, who got laid off in their mid to late 50s, can't find another job with similar pay. Working 5-6 days/week as a dentist is hard but I think it's fun working only 1-2 days a week when you are an older dentist....it's better than sitting around at home reading the SDN threads all day long.

I know dentists who have hit their 60's, they have a paid off home, kids college is done, the practice has become a well oiled machine , they have a stable staff, a loyal patient base who respect them, they take 4 to 6 weeks off a year to travel not including holidays, and the kicker is a nice 6 figure salary. They have told me they could quit tommorrow but why? I had no answer.

 

[Cold Front]

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[Cold Front]

Another wrinkle to this...

As the topic suggests - 1 in 6 of all dentists are over 65. However, if you break it down by gender, 1 in 5 of all male dentists are over 65, while 1 in 20 of all female dentists are over 65, today.

So in pure numbers terms, ~3,000 female dentists are over 65, while male dentists of that age group are ~30,000. It’s a 10x for female:male ratio in 2020. Female new grads 40 years ago were lot less in numbers than today’s new grads, so it makes sense that fewer older female dentists are practicing today.

If the new and current majority of female new grads trend holds, the future of older dentists will mostly be females... but I’m not sure they would push themselves to work later in life like older male dentists do now, as women generally tend to have different social circles than men, they will not be as keen to look social life in the workplace as their male counterparts. Females are also (generally) better savers than males, and will probably have a better and more stable retirement nest.

Bottom line... the supply of older dentists is close to it’s peak today and will go down significantly in the future, probably in 20-30 years.


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[theleatherwalle]

Another wrinkle to this...

As the topic suggests - 1 in 6 of all dentists are over 65. However, if you break it down by gender, 1 in 5 of all male dentists are over 65, while 1 in 20 of all female dentists are over 65, today.

So in pure numbers terms, ~3,000 female dentists are over 65, while male dentists of that age group are ~30,000. It’s a 10x for female:male ratio in 2020. Female new grads 40 years ago were lot less in numbers than today’s new grads, so it makes sense that fewer older female dentists are practicing today.

If the new and current majority of female new grads trend holds, the future of older dentists will mostly be females... but I’m not sure they would push themselves to work later in life like older male dentists do now, as women generally tend to have different social circles than men, they will not be as keen to look social life in the workplace as their male counterparts. Females are also (generally) better savers than males, and will probably have a better and more stable retirement nest.

Bottom line... the supply of older dentists is close to it’s peak today and will go down significantly in the future, probably in 20-30 years.


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Do you believe that younger dentists will out produce the older dentists or do you think there would be a learning gap? I could see this is as vital period in time where corps buy old practices and young dentists are too in-debited to purchase such practices.

 

[Cold Front]

Do you believe that younger dentists will out produce the older dentists or do you think there would be a learning gap? I could see this is as vital period in time where corps buy old practices and young dentists are too in-debited to purchase such practices.

Hard to say. My guess is, you can find high producers in any age group, but there is a different learning curve for young dentists/new grads on how they enter the workforce; because they more technology savvy, understand new materials better, and so on. In theory, it’s easier to do dentistry today than 30-40+ years ago. But, older dentists compensate for this by taking a lot ofCE courses to stay updated with the modernization of clinical dentistry. Just go to any convention, almost everyone is an older dentist.

Corps will not discriminate by age when they buy practices, although the most established offices are predominantly owned by older dentists. Also, not all of older dentists practices are for sale and/or worth buying. So it’s really a cherry picking process for the corporations. Corporations do buy younger dentists (under 65) offices as well, but those are rare.


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[penguinbentley]

Does the aging population mean anything in terms of there being opportunities available for new grads to associate at and eventually take over the practices? Or is this likely offset by the fact that many aren't worth buying or the fact that the DSOs will gobble them up?

Just wondering how the aging population correlates to the increasing saturation.

 

[Cold Front]

Just wondering how the aging population correlates to the increasing saturation.

Yes. I think today’s older dentists are delaying retirement; life expectancy went up, majority are men and want to get out of the house and keep themselves busy, some do not have enough savings to retire, and so on. These are all BAD for saturation in the short term, because it creates a surplus of dentists, and today’s younger dentists will not be in high demand in the workforce due to older dentists hanging on to their practices longer or competing with them for corporate positions.

However, in the long term, female dentists will make up the majority of older dentists, and will likely retire sooner and sell their practices at a younger age than male older dentists - which is GOOD for saturation and will lead to more demand for future young dentists across the board.


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