Deleted

[pink_peonies]

X

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sommerwing]

I cant say for Peds Neuro, but the number you quote is quite low. Given youre still in medical school, was probably given to you by someone still in academics quoting an academic position?

I will be entering a neurohospitalist position near downtown LA, salary is >300K (7 days on 7 days off, 12 hr shifts with no night responsibilities, no outpatient clinic). I have 380K in loans and budgeted to be fine.

Unless youre going into academics, you should be able to find a position that comfortably pays >250K anywhere. I have friends in NYC making >300K and others in Miami making >325K.

The question is if going into peds neuro may limit you to more academic settings? I am not sure personally.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I know a handful of adult neurologists in SoCal. None make less than 300k but they’re all in private practice or employed by community hospitals.

I know one Peds neuro in SD that is killing it. Not sure about actual figure but based on the house he lives in and the cars he drives, I say he’s loaded.

 

[Chibucks15]

Thank you for your post. No, it was through a Google search on one of those generic salary websites. I am slightly reassured, but I know peds neuro also makes far (?) less than adult neuro. And that is a great question since I’m not interested in academia.

Another large barrier is going to be actually getting residency in LA. Its one of the most competitive areas both in community and academic places. Just keep that in mind that residency is a short time (relatively) so if you aren't in LA for that you can still get back there to get a job most likely

 

[DocMom1]

If you're going into academics, your salary will be far below non-academics

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Thank you for your post. No, it was through a Google search on one of those generic salary websites. I am slightly reassured, but I know peds neuro also makes far (?) less than adult neuro. And that is a great question since I’m not interested in academia.

peds neuro far less than adult neuro is by a choice.
from a purely business prospective, peds neuro has the potential to make more money than adult neuro since a higher proportion of your patients require EEG than that of adults.

With that said, please don't go into any specialty, specially pediatric specialties, with a purely financial prospective. These children are extremely sick and their parents are desperate to find a specialist.

Do what you're passionate about and what is best for the patient, and everything else will fall in place. As long as you're not in academia, you won't starve.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Another large barrier is going to be actually getting residency in LA. Its one of the most competitive areas both in community and academic places. Just keep that in mind that residency is a short time (relatively) so if you aren't in LA for that you can still get back there to get a job most likely

True, but there's one particular child neuro program in SoCal that has gone unfilled for multiple years in a row.

 

[Chibucks15]

True, but there's one particular child neuro program in SoCal that has gone unfilled for multiple years in a row.

You definitely know the area better than I do haha I'm surprised to hear that though given all I hear about how much better you have to be to get a spot out there than other places

 

[Postictal Raiden]

You definitely know the area better than I do haha I'm surprised to hear that though given all I hear about how much better you have to be to get a spot out there than other places

Generally that is true. However, this particular peds program has been having difficulty recruiting and filling the position. I haven't looked at their most recent data, but back when i was applying, they hadn't filled the peds spot(s) for like 3 years in a row and had to rely on SOAP

 

[Kr#36]

Another large barrier is going to be actually getting residency in LA. Its one of the most competitive areas both in community and academic places. Just keep that in mind that residency is a short time (relatively) so if you aren't in LA for that you can still get back there to get a job most likely

Not to mention with that many loans already its not a wise place to try to do residency from a financial standpoint.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Not to mention with that many loans already its not a wise place to try to do residency from a financial standpoint.

But during residency, your payments are the same regardless of your loan balance (be it 100k or 1M, it's based on your salary).

Actually, from a pure financial prospective, doing a residency in CA is not a bad thing. Salary at UC programs tends to be higher than most places in the country. Plus you get a housing stipend (anywhere from 3k/year to 10k/year depending on location). In addition, you have a very solid health insurance for you and your dependents at zero cost.

Also, as a resident, you're still within a lowish income bracket in CA, so you won't be taxed massively.

Now after residency, this is a different story.

 

[Dave1980]

But during residency, your payments are the same regardless of your loan balance (be it 100k or 1M, it's based on your salary).

Actually, from a pure financial prospective, doing a residency in CA is not a bad thing. Salary at UC programs tends to be higher than most places in the country. Plus you get a housing stipend (anywhere from 3k/year to 10k/year depending on location). In addition, you have a very solid health insurance for you and your dependents at zero cost.

Also, as a resident, you're still within a lowish income bracket in CA, so you won't be taxed massively.

Now after residency, this is a different story.

Impressive mental gymnastics to decide that doing peds neuro in LA with a large amount of debt is going to work out fine lol

 

[Chibucks15]

Impressive mental gymnastics to decide that doing peds neuro in LA with a large amount of debt is going to work out fine lol

Wasn’t he speaking more to the loan burden? You’ll do income based almost regardless of situation, so largely it won’t matter what the debt is for residency, and the last sentence mentioned that after residency it’s a different story?

 

[NITRAS]

So. I’m curious. All these people who are “non-negotiable” on a highly saturated location. . . Is it because their mom lives there? They have a high paying spouse? A boyfriend who makes 30k/year? Fancy Korean food? I mean, seriously. The amount of threads that have that say basically the same thing is astounding.

What about these large cities is so appealing they pick a place that pays them less, and works them harder?

 

[curiousneuro]

Current M3. The location is non-negotiable for me due to family. I can’t imagine doing another specialty right now — I would rank peds neuro > adult neuro >> psych — so I’m trying to gauge how much loans will be affecting my life. What’s the salary for peds neuro in LA? I have read the median is $180k? I’m not interested in research, but open to working in a hospital or private practice.

Location is a big deal, as is cost of living. Do you have a significant other +/- children? That's going to factor in majorly when deciding on doing your residency training in LA due to the cost of living. In terms of peds neuro salaries - honestly, many peds neuro docs are located at academic centers, so that might be why you're seeing the median salary so low. I don't know too many peds neurologists in private settings though, so I may be biased.

Anyways - cost of living, in my mind, is a huge factor when it comes to deciding on where you want to train.

 

[sommerwing]

So. I’m curious. All these people who are “non-negotiable” on a highly saturated location. . . Is it because their mom lives there? They have a high paying spouse? A boyfriend who makes 30k/year? Fancy Korean food? I mean, seriously. The amount of threads that have that say basically the same thing is astounding.

What about these large cities is so appealing they pick a place that pays them less, and works them harder?

For myself,
My significant other obtained a desirable academic neurology position in Los Angeles, making a position elsewhere not really viable for me long term.

Also, in agreement with Ibn. Not sure what the problem with doing residency in a city is. Financially I dont believe youll be any worse off than completing in a rural place. I had >350K in loans and did my training in NYC, had an amazing time. Wouldnt do it at a rural place even if they paid me 100K.

 

[Thama]

Personally, I would quit medicine before I volunteered to live in many parts of the US. The NYC/LA/SF or bust people are a little on the extreme end, but there's a reason very very few with the cognitive capacity to finish med school and residency want to live in trailer-park-meth-AR15-MAGA-ville. For me, I'd happily make substantially less money if I got to be near my family while doing so.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I don’t understand the hostility on this site for anyone who desires to live and practice on coastal cities (be it CA or NY). If you want to life in a BFE where the most fun thing to do is hanging out at Walmart just so you can earn one standard deviation above national average, be my guest. Just don’t shame others for wanting to live in a HCOL area for whatever reason.

Personally, although I’m planning to staying in the West after training (for family reasons), I prefer to be in NV or AZ.

 

[Chibucks15]

I don’t understand the hostility on this site for anyone who desires to live and practice on coastal cities (be it CA or NY). If you want to life in a BFE where the most fun thing to do is hanging out at Walmart just so you can earn one standard deviation above national average, be my guest. Just don’t shame others for wanting to live in a HCOL area for whatever reason.

Personally, although I’m planning to staying in the West after training (for family reasons), I prefer to be in NV or AZ.

I don't think its outright hostility, I think its more defensiveness about some people talking down about the Midwest and such. I'm a midwest guy and the majority of people I know are of the mindset that people should go practice wherever they want, but the middle of the country certainly takes some ricochet shots when it comes to people saying how terrible it would be to live there, etc. That's the only thing I shoot back on. Most areas of the country (besides BFE) there's plenty to do, but there are certainly some different lives once you get out there a ways

Although now thinking about it there's plenty of hate that gets thrown around at the coasts too for various reasons so its more likely people are just obnoxious when they're on an anonymous forum haha

 

[curiousneuro]

I certainly don't hate the coasts at all (I'm from the east coast), but cost of living did play a significant role for us, as a family, during residency/fellowship. However, that was just us - everyone is different and has different goals.

 

[BoneWizard]

The neurologist I shadowed worked 1 on 3 off 7x13s as a nocturnist about 3 hours east of palm springs. He'd rent a place by the hospital and shack up for a week then drive home to spend the rest of the month. He was vascular though so I'm not sure if that'd be an option for peds neuro. I assume you'd get rural income but metro lifestyle this way.

 

[Splenda88]

250k debt is low... Many of us have 350-400k with salary prospect of 250-300k/yr.

 

[chocomorsel]

I know a handful of adult neurologists in SoCal. None make less than 300k but they’re all in private practice or employed by community hospitals.

I know one Peds neuro in SD that is killing it. Not sure about actual figure but based on the house he lives in and the cars he drives, I say he’s loaded.

Or he could be living the American dream and be up to his eyeballs in debt.
Never underestimate the sheer financial illiteracy of educated high earners.

 

[xenotype]

But during residency, your payments are the same regardless of your loan balance (be it 100k or 1M, it's based on your salary).

Actually, from a pure financial prospective, doing a residency in CA is not a bad thing. Salary at UC programs tends to be higher than most places in the country. Plus you get a housing stipend (anywhere from 3k/year to 10k/year depending on location). In addition, you have a very solid health insurance for you and your dependents at zero cost.

Also, as a resident, you're still within a lowish income bracket in CA, so you won't be taxed massively.

Now after residency, this is a different story.

10k/year comes out to $800 a month. The cost of LA/SF housing reasonably close to most hospitals that is safe will easily and significantly surpass the average rent for a similar place in most other cities ($1500/mo). Sure the salaries are higher, but the significant increase in state and local taxes will eat up more than the entire difference between states like TX and FL with no state income tax. This is easily worth >$10k in gross salary per year when it comes to take home pay. Most programs have good health insurance for residents due to medical loss ratio requirements.

Personally, I would quit medicine before I volunteered to live in many parts of the US. The NYC/LA/SF or bust people are a little on the extreme end, but there's a reason very very few with the cognitive capacity to finish med school and residency want to live in trailer-park-meth-AR15-MAGA-ville. For me, I'd happily make substantially less money if I got to be near my family while doing so.

Many of these 'trailer-park-meth-AR15-MAGA-ville' people are kind, generous, and value their physicians much more than typical urban/suburban patients do regardless of whether you like their political leanings. There is also a lot to be said for being on a kayak on a beautiful remote river by yourself with no other people around to spoil the experience- something that simply cannot be had anywhere in California anymore. The jobs and pay in some of these areas can be shockingly better than coastal urban environments- think 4-8 patients a day for $370k/23 weeks a year as long as you are willing to live in an undesirable location.

 

[johnwandering]

I think these posts on the “financials” of residency are silly. Especially when people who havent done residency in cities warn you on how terrible it will be while those who have done it say it is fine. Not sure why you would believe the former.

I did my residency in a major metropolitan area with over 300K in loans, my rent was 1800 a month. I still did everything I wanted with several thousand saved in the bank. None of my co-residents or myself have had problems financially.

Not sure what the appeal of going somewhere for “more money” would have been... my loans would be 250K instead of 300K? Who cares seriously. When I go meet with my friends who are doing residency in more rural areas, there is no difference between us financially in real world utility terms.

Sure, real world employment is one thing, but your choice of residency should be based on how attractive the program/area is for you, not financials. If you want to go urban, go urban. If you want to go rural, go rural. Do what you want, Money wont be a problem either way.

 

[Spinothalamic]

I think these posts on the “financials” of residency are silly. Especially when people who havent done residency in cities warn you on how terrible it will be while those who have done it say it is fine. Not sure why you would believe the former.

I did my residency in a major metropolitan area with over 300K in loans, my rent was 1800 a month. I still did everything I wanted with several thousand saved in the bank. None of my co-residents or myself have had problems financially.

Not sure what the appeal of going somewhere for “more money” would have been... my loans would be 250K instead of 300K? Who cares seriously. When I go meet with my friends who are doing residency in more rural areas, there is no difference between us financially in real world utility terms.

Sure, real world employment is one thing, but your choice of residency should be based on how attractive the program/area is for you, not financials. If you want to go urban, go urban. If you want to go rural, go rural. Do what you want, Money wont be a problem either way.

I mostly agree with this.

I think that there are of course trade-offs with any situation and the primary goal of residency does not have to do with finances.

That being said, I don’t think there is a good argument that the financial situation is generally equivalent when comparing a city with a high cost of living like NYC or SF to a smaller Midwest city. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the difference between financial situations will translate to major differences in the real world (e.g. 300k loans vs $260k loans).

Additionally, it is highly improbable for a resident with several children to have the same amenities (backyard, 3 bedroom house) in those major metropolitan cities without significant financial repercussions. Finally, those who are interested in home ownership and the associated potentials profits or losses during residency would be much less likely to purchase a home in those areas.

 

[johnwandering]

I mostly agree with this.

I think that there are of course trade-offs with any situation and the primary goal of residency does not have to do with finances.

That being said, I don’t think there is a good argument that the financial situation is generally equivalent when comparing a city with a high cost of living like NYC or SF to a smaller Midwest city. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the difference between financial situations will translate to major differences in the real world (e.g. 300k loans vs $260k loans).

Additionally, it is highly improbable for a resident with several children to have the same amenities (backyard, 3 bedroom house) in those major metropolitan cities without significant financial repercussions. Finally, those who are interested in home ownership and the associated potentials profits or losses during residency would be much less likely to purchase a home in those areas.

Yes I definitely agree with you.

If youre in a place in life where you have to support a family or are wanting to purchase a home and settle down long term, those extra dollars will make a difference.

Otherwise if those dont apply to you, there shouldnt be problems

 

[Neurogeneral]

My practice partner is a peds neuro guy and he has a booming and very lucrative practice doing nearly all ADHD - both pediatric and adults. He makes everyone follow up every 3 months and has a strict control substance policy with regular urine drug screens. Cause it’s usually just refills and he has a loyal patient base he can easily see 30-40 patients in a day. The visits also generate lots of routine and long term EEGs cause when little Jimmy is being inattentive in class, you got to rule out absence seizures as well before saying it’s ADHD.

He does very well.

 

[sharkbaitwhohaha]

My practice partner is a peds neuro guy and he has a booming and very lucrative practice doing nearly all ADHD - both pediatric and adults. He makes everyone follow up every 3 months and has a strict control substance policy with regular urine drug screens. Cause it’s usually just refills and he has a loyal patient base he can easily see 30-40 patients in a day. The visits also generate lots of routine and long term EEGs cause when little Jimmy is being inattentive in class, you got to rule out absence seizures as well before saying it’s ADHD.

He does very well.

Good money I'm sure.

But not gonna lie, that sounds boring AF.

 

[Neurogeneral]

Good money I'm sure.

But not gonna lie, that sounds boring AF.

It’s really the only way to see that many clinic patients.

I could never see that many general neuro clinic patients without my head exploding.

 

[johnwandering]

I am currently single without children. For those wondering why LA is non-negotiable, I have very elderly immigrant parents around the area and family is everything to us.

Thanks everyone for all your replies — I guess I’ll have to accept I may make $180k or lower before taxes if I go this route (and it seems to be my route, can’t see myself in anything else other than perhaps adult neuro, I think I enjoy neurology so much I would feel lucky to be in the field if there were even little compensation). Through very lucky and generous turn of events, I will also now graduate with $150k loans instead of $250k.

I’m not interested in academia or research and would still be fulfilled seeing 30 routine follow-ups in clinic every day. I’d be interested in the EEG fellowship. I do wish I knew more about the private practice child neurology landscape there (job market? even more anecdotes about salary?) but with such a small field I guess this makes sense. The few anecdotes so far are great, thank you.

You should make >250K even in LA, if youre not going academic (dont believe the online google metrics). 180K would mean youre going into academics or youre doing something wrong.

 

[Chibucks15]

250k debt is low... Many of us have 350-400k with salary prospect of 250-300k/yr.

Where are you getting those numbers? Average on MGMA is up over 300 easy...

 

[Telamir]

My practice partner is a peds neuro guy and he has a booming and very lucrative practice doing nearly all ADHD - both pediatric and adults. He makes everyone follow up every 3 months and has a strict control substance policy with regular urine drug screens. Cause it’s usually just refills and he has a loyal patient base he can easily see 30-40 patients in a day. The visits also generate lots of routine and long term EEGs cause when little Jimmy is being inattentive in class, you got to rule out absence seizures as well before saying it’s ADHD.

He does very well.

Sounds both skeezy and personally might drive me to seppuku.

 

[xenotype]

Sounds both skeezy and personally might drive me to seppuku.

I would hate it myself, but I don't think it is skeezy at all. There are a few peds guys locally with the same focus on ADHD as >80% of their practice. If your practice is primarily ADHD, you'll be far better at it than a PCP Rxing these meds irresponsibly or a psychiatrist who rarely treats ADHD doing it. Skeezy is the many neurologists tossing benzos around like candy with questionable indications to their patients with no drug screens, no contract/policy, and minimal follow-up 6 months to >1 year apart. The frequent follow-ups are focused on school grades, maximizing 504/IEP plans as needed, monitoring for weight gain/loss etc. Really gives kids the best possible chance to get good school performance while avoiding any risks in terms of diversion, etc. The guys locally have a long waiting list to get in to their clinic. I've also seen the one time screening EEG prior to starting stimulants. Some of the smarter aspects I've seen- independent practice association (IPA) to get good insurance reimbursement. They won't schedule any new patients that have previously seen another local peds neurologist by policy- avoids a substantial percentage of crazy parents and psychogenic problems. Not practical in adult neurology obviously.

 

[90sportsfan]

I'm an M3 allopathic student also interested in Neuro (or Rads). Not to scoff at your loans, but $250K is not a terribly large student loan nowadays, and I would think that even on the lower ends of salaries I've heard for Neuro, you should be able to pay that off pretty comfortably. Although, I'm not familiar with Child Neuro (where job options would probably be more limited), and of course living within your means is important. I would think that with $250K loans, you should be financially comfortable as a Neurologist after practicing a few years.

I am in-state for my medical school, and will come out with about $250K with interest. My classmates out-of-state, are looking at over $300K (and some private school grads are at $400K+), which starts getting in the more daunting territory, IMO.

 

[90sportsfan]

250k debt is low... Many of us have 350-400k with salary prospect of 250-300k/yr.

Sorry, I didn't see your post before I replied. I pretty much said the same thing . I'm lucky that I'm in a relatively low tuition in-state school, and I'll be coming out with about $250. But my out-of-state classmates are closer to $350K. Honestly, coming out of med school with $250K nowadays seems like it's on the low end, and that relatively little debt shouldn't have much of an impact at all on your financial health. It's the grads that are in the $400K (and some even approaching 450K at private schools), where they really have to consider financial implications of specialties/where they live. Fortunately, if you've only got $250K, that's not really a big part of the equation.