Covid Booster shots

[emergentmd]

You appear to want absolute scientific rigor for views contrary to yours while accepting anecdotal experience and inference as support for views you are sympathetic to.

I hasten to add that this is a common mistake, and certainly one I am not above making.

I would like for "Experts" to make recommendations on scientific basis and allow each American to decide what is best for their family/community. I realize that sometimes there are no sound scientific basis and just anecdotal evidence/sound observations. BUT when there are no scientific basis, then just come out and be honest with the "ignorant" public. I rather them come out and say, "We do not have very good scientific evidence but a 3rd shot may be beneficial especially in the high risk population so we currently recommend it" rather than "The scientific community recommends a 3rd shot"

Look, we have ample evidence than people who got Either of the 3 vaccines had very little poor outcome/hospitalization due to Delta. We already know that getting the shot does not prevent getting infected. So what is a 3rd shot preventing? Its not preventing getting infected. Given the super Low admission rates, then are we trying achieve a Super Super Super low admission rate?

Now my anecdotal experience just applies to my family and just increases my plan not to get a booster. The CDC advisory committee voted against boosters for healthy healthcare workers which I am part of. It was overrulled by the director which almost never happens which tells me it was due to all the political pressures put on her.

TLDR - Make CDC/Gov recommendations based on scientific fact or be honest that the recommendation has no scientific basis. People should decide what is best for them and their family. If you want to protect your family, get them vaccinated which I did already then we are protected from a bad outcome.

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[emergentmd]

You (and your marathoner friend) had 6 months of debilitating shortness of breath, just assumed it was the vaccine and didn't investigate it?

No echo, heart cath, CTA, stress test? No chest x-ray, PFT, pulse ox, Hgb/HCT?

I had 6 months of SOB with running. If it was debilitating, I would have went to the ER. I just didn't have the exercise tolerance but still could do 3 miles without difficulty. Just "off" and for someone who has ran for the past 30+ yrs, I can tell the subtle difference.

I assumed it was some viral thing or maybe vax and would get better so I gave it 6 months. It has slowly gotten better and but took awhile. So I did have full labs drawn, CT chest/CT chest, cardiac labs/EKG. Vitals normal, O2 sats 99. Don't think I need PFTs if I am essentially back at baseline. Have a stress Echo scheduled next month.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I would like for "Experts" to make recommendations on scientific basis and allow each American to decide what is best for their family/community. I realize that sometimes there are no sound scientific basis and just anecdotal evidence/sound observations. BUT when there are no scientific basis, then just come out and be honest with the "ignorant" public. I rather them come out and say, "We do not have very good scientific evidence but a 3rd shot may be beneficial especially in the high risk population so we currently recommend it" rather than "The scientific community recommends a 3rd shot"

Look, we have ample evidence than people who got Either of the 3 vaccines had very little poor outcome/hospitalization due to Delta. We already know that getting the shot does not prevent getting infected. So what is a 3rd shot preventing? Its not preventing getting infected. Given the super Low admission rates, then are we trying achieve a Super Super Super low admission rate?

Now my anecdotal experience just applies to my family and just increases my plan not to get a booster. The CDC advisory committee voted against boosters for healthy healthcare workers which I am part of. It was overrulled by the director which almost never happens which tells me it was due to all the political pressures put on her.

TLDR - Make CDC/Gov recommendations based on scientific fact or be honest that the recommendation has no scientific basis. People should decide what is best for them and their family. If you want to protect your family, get them vaccinated which I did already then we are protected from a bad outcome.

Except the study out of Israel did show a reduction in infection with a booster

 

[southerndoc]

I didn’t have it any issues with the shot. She did apparently but I am not aware she went through any medical work up. She made no assumptions it was the shot but surmised it could have been the shot once she started feeling better six months later and realized her symptoms had started within days of the vax. I don’t know any more. I was sharing with EmergentMD that he/she was not alone in this effect.

Acute fibro is rough. Your friend luckily recovered. Stay strong.

 

[DoctwoB]

Except the study out of Israel did show a reduction in infection with a booster

Yeah half this thread seems to be ignoring the existing data. The population data says that with delta, immmunity wanes, more so for infection then prevention of severe disease, but both go down with time. The data also says that after boosters, efficacy goes back up. The million dollar question is for how long? Will it wane again just like the first time? Will it last longer as the second (or third depending on how you view the first two shots immunologically) often does in immunization series? That remains to be seen.

My bet is it lasts longer and wanes less over time; but still likely looking at least another shot in the future. But give the CDC/FDA a break. They have to make recommendations based on incomplete data, which is far from perfect, but far better then no data as many of you are suggesting.

 

[michaelrack]

Not sure, could be fasciitis. I have been feeling a little better over the last few days

 

[miacomet]

Aside from the severely immunocompromised, the only other group I think it might make sense to give a booster would perhaps be healthcare workers who got the pfizer shot spaced only 3 weeks apart. There is emerging data showing that protection from covid is maximized the most if the pfizer vaccines are spaced 3 MONTHS apart, as opposed to 3 weeks the CDC went with.

The Canadian government actually did this, which was smart of them. So if your dosing interval was too short with pfizer, perhaps a booster might be good idea to maximize the vaccine's efficacy. This may also have been the reason why the Israeli data showed lesser effectiveness against Delta from vaccinations, as they almost exclusively used pfizer, dosed 3 weeks apart or slightly less. There are other major problems with that data, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

If you got moderna, it's already given at a higher dose than pfizer and shows greater effectiveness anyway, making a booster dose moot in an otherwise healthy person.

I don't know what the CDC is saying about this, but the one group we can unequivocally say does not need the booster is the healthy+previously infected+vaccinated group. They already have the highest level of immunity anyone could conceivably have against covid, and giving them a booster is beyond asinine.

Personally, i'd be ecstatic if we'd just get more unvaccinated people to just the get original vaccine - far far more important than boosters for people already vaccinated, which is what we should prioritize, and haven't done so enough.

There is good evidence for the elderly re: Pfizer booster.

 

[DoctwoB]

For those looking for more booster data

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Phase 3 Trial Data Showing High Efficacy of a Booster Dose of Their COVID-19 Vaccine | Pfizer

First results from any randomized, controlled COVID-19 vaccine booster trial demonstrate a relative vaccine efficacy of 95.6% against disease during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain In trial with more than 10,000 participants 16 years of age and older, COVID-19 booster was found to...

www.pfizer.com

Still awaiting the publication, but Pfizer, unlike Az, has actually been good about putting accurate data in their press releases.

Short line is booster reduced cases by 96% compared to regular doubly vaccinated controls in delta predominant times. That’s incredible, as vaccinated but not boosted individuals still have some protection against delta compared to unvaxxed.

 

[Old_Mil]

For those looking for more booster data

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Phase 3 Trial Data Showing High Efficacy of a Booster Dose of Their COVID-19 Vaccine | Pfizer

First results from any randomized, controlled COVID-19 vaccine booster trial demonstrate a relative vaccine efficacy of 95.6% against disease during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain In trial with more than 10,000 participants 16 years of age and older, COVID-19 booster was found to...

www.pfizer.com

Still awaiting the publication, but Pfizer, unlike Az, has actually been good about putting accurate data in their press releases.

Short line is booster reduced cases by 96% compared to regular doubly vaccinated controls in delta predominant times. That’s incredible, as vaccinated but not boosted individuals still have some protection against delta compared to unvaxxed.

Pfizer's own statements on booster efficacy..."Symptomatic COVID-19 occurrence was measured from at least 7 days after booster or placebo, with a median follow-up of 2.5 months."

 

[WilcoWorld]

Pfizer's own statements on booster efficacy..."Symptomatic COVID-19 occurrence was measured from at least 7 days after booster or placebo, with a median follow-up of 2.5 months."

Well I'm [still] in the Pfizer trial which has an ongoing weekly symptom check. I interpret what you're quoting as an example of transparency.

On an anecdotal note, the booster kicked my keester. I've got a nice axillary thing happening, probably ultrasound it on my next ****.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Well I'm [still] in the Pfizer trial which has an ongoing weekly symptom check. I interpret what you're quoting as an example of transparency.

On an anecdotal note, the booster kicked my keester. I've got a nice axillary thing happening, probably ultrasound it on my next ****.

that was a funny correction ☝️I meant to type "shift"

 

[maxxor]

Well I'm [still] in the Pfizer trial which has an ongoing weekly symptom check. I interpret what you're quoting as an example of transparency.

On an anecdotal note, the booster kicked my keester. I've got a nice axillary thing happening, probably ultrasound it on my next ****.

See it all the time on PET and Chest CTs. It’s gotten to where the techs ask everyone about their vaccines.

 

[Siggy]

Well I'm [still] in the Pfizer trial which has an ongoing weekly symptom check. I interpret what you're quoting as an example of transparency.

On an anecdotal note, the booster kicked my keester. I've got a nice axillary thing happening, probably ultrasound it on my next ****.

My armpit was one gigantic inflamed lymph node for about 3-4 days.

 

[Rekt]

Booster kicked my ass. I was fine with the others. Although I got flu and booster at same time. Myalgias for 48hrs. Woke up with severe rigors for about 45 mins during the night at 2am until the Tylenol and ibuprofen kicked in, then woke up completely soaked more than I ever have.

 

[thegenius]

So first, turns out losing then gaining back weight is actually healthier than never losing the weight to begin with.

I haven't heard this before and it's interesting / promising. Can you elaborate a little more? What do you know about this? I have, along with my family, gone through several episodes over the past decade of losing weight and then gaining it back 6-9 months later. Does it matter how it's lost (eating less or working out?) How much is lost? Just curious.

 

[thegenius]

I had 6 months of SOB with running. If it was debilitating, I would have went to the ER. I just didn't have the exercise tolerance but still could do 3 miles without difficulty. Just "off" and for someone who has ran for the past 30+ yrs, I can tell the subtle difference.

I assumed it was some viral thing or maybe vax and would get better so I gave it 6 months. It has slowly gotten better and but took awhile. So I did have full labs drawn, CT chest/CT chest, cardiac labs/EKG. Vitals normal, O2 sats 99. Don't think I need PFTs if I am essentially back at baseline. Have a stress Echo scheduled next month.

Wow they did all of that (or you wanted it done) when you could run three miles without difficulty?

It reminds me when I used to swim in high school and then later on in my 20's for exercise. I noticed at some point that I couldn't do 40 laps nearly as easily as I used to. I went to the doctor and said "i'm getting much more fatigued when I swim than before. I'm concerned." She asked "how quickly do you get fatigued?" I responded "after 30-40 laps I have markedly less energy and I'm more SOB." She looked at me like:




She obviously offered no workup LOL

 

[WilcoWorld]

Wow they did all of that (or you wanted it done) when you could run three miles without difficulty?

It reminds me when I used to swim in high school and then later on in my 20's for exercise. I noticed at some point that I couldn't do 40 laps nearly as easily as I used to. I went to the doctor and said "i'm getting much more fatigued when I swim than before. I'm concerned." She asked "how quickly do you get fatigued?" I responded "after 30-40 labs I have markedly less energy and I'm more SOB." She looked at me like:




She obviously offered no workup LOL

Reminds me of going to get my eyes checked when I was 32 and could no longer read street signs from over a block away.

"Yes, your vision is getting worse...it's almost normal."

 

[RustedFox]

My armpit was one gigantic inflamed lymph node for about 3-4 days.

That's the nanochips assembling themselves into the mind control computer.

You will be assimilated.

Resistance is futile.

 

[Rendar5]

Going to the original question, we have not had sufficient time with the vaccine to test how long lasting memory immunity is. Everyone gets obsessed with antibodies which will always wane.

The reason we don’t get hep B boosters? They had a study out for 20 years and saw at least half of participants lose antibody titers for primary immunity. But then challenged them with antigen and found that >80% retained secondary memory immunity.

I doubt enough time has passed for us to have sufficient data on how many “boosters” are needed. Right now boosters seem to simply be a third dose of the vaccine like we get when we have any vaccine series.

 

[emergentmd]

Wow they did all of that (or you wanted it done) when you could run three miles without difficulty?

That is the advantage of knowing lots of docs and owning a FSER.

 

[vm26]

Booster kicked my ass. I was fine with the others. Although I got flu and booster at same time. Myalgias for 48hrs. Woke up with severe rigors for about 45 mins during the night at 2am until the Tylenol and ibuprofen kicked in, then woke up completely soaked more than I ever have.

2nd Pfizer kicked my a$$ back in Jan ("flu-like" symptoms for 3-4 days), so somewhat hesitant about booster but still open to the possibly

 

[Spikebd]

The lymph node enlargement thing following the vaccination has led to many negative axillary lymph node biopsies in women with a history of breast cancer who were concerned they had a breast cancer recurrence. Would be interested to know if radiologists are changing their practice due to this.

 

[maxxor]

The lymph node enlargement thing following the vaccination has led to many negative axillary lymph node biopsies in women with a history of breast cancer who were concerned they had a breast cancer recurrence. Would be interested to know if radiologists are changing their practice due to this.

Caveat: I don’t do mammo

We have all of our techs asking patients when and which arm their vaccines were. The oncologists are recommending they get vaccines on the opposite arm of a paired problem (so get injection on left if known right breast cancer or right arm melanoma etc).

When we see stuff and it’s within 6 weeks of a vaccine, we say something like most likely related to vaccination and to get a short interval follow up based on suspicion.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Caveat: I don’t do mammo

We have all of our techs asking patients when and which arm their vaccines were. The oncologists are recommending they get vaccines on the opposite arm of a paired problem (so get injection on left if known right breast cancer or right arm melanoma etc).

When we see stuff and it’s within 6 weeks of a vaccine, we say something like most likely related to vaccination and to get a short interval follow up based on suspicion.

My lymphadenopathy was remarkable, but is now essentially gone after a few days. Seems like watchful waiting for a week or so is pretty reasonable and likely to avoid a lot of unnecessary biopsies.

 

[dchristismi]

When I got my annual mammogram, the tech specifically asked if I'd had any vaccinations in the prior 2 weeks.
I'd almost gotten the flu shot the day before, but had conveniently forgotten to get it before I left.

Covid Moderna booster yesterday. Had Moderna #1 and #2 in December and January. While my arm is a little sore and I'm a little tired, (and yes, some mild LAD) I deliberately did it because I was planning to lay around and be a bum today. I had coverage at work and my newish, rather anxious ex-shelter dog had a rough night yesterday with the doorbell. (Yes, I finally got another dog. And I figured we'd be up late. We were. She's doing better today but she's my excuse for lots of naps today.)

 

[d2305]

Here comes the South Africa variant. So much for current boosters.

 

[emergentmd]

So you are now saying vaccines don't work?

 

[MechEDoc]

ENERGENTMD - purely anecdotal but my best friend, ER PA and healthy in her 40s, has the same thing within days of her second dose of Moderna. Previously a marathon runner for 20+ years and suddenly could not run more than a mile or two due to shortness of breath. Six months out and she was back to normal. Interesting.

I believe you're unintentionally using the word "interesting" correctly.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Here comes the South Africa variant. So much for current boosters.

'Substantively NOTHING is known about the new variant,' Roberto Burioni, a leading Italian virologist, wrote on Twitter, adding that people should not panic.

 

[d2305]

Time will tell.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Time will tell.

That could be said about anything.

 

[Birdstrike]

What I heard about 'omicron' all last week:

"New variant" > vaccine RESISTANT > PANIC > disaster > lockdown > bORdER bAn!


Then this morning:

“What we are seeing clinically in South Africa — and remember I’m at the epicenter of this where I’m practicing — is extremely mild, for us [these are] mild cases. We haven’t admitted anyone, I’ve spoken to other colleagues of mine and they give the same picture.” -CNBC

 

[Birdstrike]

April 2020:

"1-The media exaggerates & distorts for ratings and profit, as a rule.
2-Experts are frequently wrong, often disastrously so.

Although you can't do the work of the media, or know as much about everything as so called 'experts,' the importance of having a good bull$hit detector so you can tell when #1 and #2 are happening, cannot be overestimated."

How long should the lock down last?

I was addressing this statement that by opening up everything now we will hit herd immunity by winter. We don't know that will happen. I favor a gradual opening soon, like a lot of other people have. Elective surgeries should 100% be restarted, those patients will be in a hospital where they can...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Birdstrike]

Last week, sheer panic. This week:

"Scientists are studying whether Omicron causes severe illness"

Hmm....

 

[Apollyon]

When someone puts up 3 posts in a row, which are redundant in parts, and could easily have been a single post, to paraphrase (or quote directly) Frida - "I know there's something going on".

 

[thegenius]

Last week, sheer panic. This week:

"Scientists are study whether Omicron causes severe illness"

Hmm....

What is the sheer panic you speak of? Where is it? "Sheer" panic to me means "utter", "un-mitigated", or "absolute".

There was none of that.

 

[thegenius]

What I heard about 'omicron' all last week:

"New variant" > vaccine RESISTANT > PANIC > disaster > lockdown > bORdER bAn!

LOL
I'm not laughing at you, I just think it's funny.

 

[thegenius]

April 2020:

"1-The media exaggerates & distorts for ratings and profit, as a rule.
2-Experts are frequently wrong, often disastrously so.

Although you can't do the work of the media, or know as much about everything as so called 'experts,' the importance of having a good bull$hit detector so you can tell when #1 and #2 are happening, cannot be overestimated."

How long should the lock down last?

I was addressing this statement that by opening up everything now we will hit herd immunity by winter. We don't know that will happen. I favor a gradual opening soon, like a lot of other people have. Elective surgeries should 100% be restarted, those patients will be in a hospital where they can...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Agree with #1
Vehemently disagree with #2

 

[thegenius]

When someone puts up 3 posts in a row, which are redundant in parts, and could easily have been a single post, to paraphrase (or quote directly) Frida - "I know there's something going on".

Apollyon: see I can put up three consecutive posts too.
It's hard to do, try it sometime.

 

[Apollyon]

Apollyon: see I can put up three consecutive posts too.
It's hard to do, try it sometime.

But you're not repeating yourself, I say again, redundantly.

 

[WilcoWorld]

But you're not repeating yourself, I say again, redundantly.

one more, then...

 

[thegenius]

What I heard about 'omicron' all last week:

"New variant" > vaccine RESISTANT > PANIC > disaster > lockdown > bORdER bAn!


Then this morning:

“What we are seeing clinically in South Africa — and remember I’m at the epicenter of this where I’m practicing — is extremely mild, for us [these are] mild cases. We haven’t admitted anyone, I’ve spoken to other colleagues of mine and they give the same picture.” -CNBC

What's the news today about Omicron? Has it mutated to Unicron yet? Is Megatron emerging yet?

The markets are tanking! What do they know that I don't?

 

[bravotwozero]

What's the news today about Omicron? Has it mutated to Unicron yet? Is Megatron emerging yet?

The markets are tanking! What do they know that I don't?

Yeah not too happy about that. Lost 10 grand the day the news broke on omicron!

 

[Birdstrike]

What do they know that I don't?

Nothing

 

[thegenius]

Nothing

Yea they don't know sheit. I don't know sheit about Omicron either. i think it's a greek letter. And I think I could be wrong.

 

[emergentmd]

Omniscient or whatever you call it is just another domino towards the publics not giving a rats A$$ about Covid anymore. If Omicorn turns into an easily transmitted mild variant, then great. Vax/unvaxxed can all get it increasing immunity.

Every time they add another greek alphabet, shut down borders, make a big deal out of it the less people will care.

The next Greek alphabet that comes up will be met with, "Yeah they said that about Omniscient, or was it Omnicorn, or Unicorn"

Covid, definitely a big health issue, is coming to the end of its political usefulness.

I find it funny how the Ultra liberal lock down states have essentially similar outcomes as the ultra conservative open up states.

Time to move on, let people who didn't get vax take the risk if they want. If you want to lower your risk, get Vax. Lets stop using this as a political tool to get votes which is all is essentially is right now because most who are scared have been vaxxed, and those who are not vaxxed will get it and bear the burden.

 

[Birdstrike]

I find it funny how the Ultra liberal lock down states have essentially similar outcomes as the ultra conservative open up states.

Same

 

[Med Director New England]

Omniscient or whatever you call it is just another domino towards the publics not giving a rats A$$ about Covid anymore. If Omicorn turns into an easily transmitted mild variant, then great. Vax/unvaxxed can all get it increasing immunity.

Every time they add another greek alphabet, shut down borders, make a big deal out of it the less people will care.

The next Greek alphabet that comes up will be met with, "Yeah they said that about Omniscient, or was it Omnicorn, or Unicorn"

Covid, definitely a big health issue, is coming to the end of its political usefulness.

I find it funny how the Ultra liberal lock down states have essentially similar outcomes as the ultra conservative open up states.

Time to move on, let people who didn't get vax take the risk if they want. If you want to lower your risk, get Vax. Lets stop using this as a political tool to get votes which is all is essentially is right now because most who are scared have been vaxxed, and those who are not vaxxed will get it and bear the burden.

Great post

 

[thegenius]

Any new news on Unicron / Megatron / Omicron?

How many has it killed?
How many has it maimed?
What is the R0?

 

[RustedFox]

Any new news on Unicron / Megatron / Omicron?

How many has it killed?
How many has it maimed?
What is the R0?

Gives the newsradio folks something to prattle on about.

As an aside (and as an admitted newsradio junkie), I really get agitated when media folks can't pronounce basic science terms.

Omicron.
O-mi-cron.

Isn't "communications" their field of expertise? Then, sound like you know what you're talking about when you communicate.