Caribbean Med Schools Buying Clinical Rotations in NY

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New York’s Medical Schools Say They Feel Squeeze in Finding Clinical Clerkships
For-profit offshore competitors buy slots from hospitals

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Greg Zielinski, center, has a clinical clerkship at the Brooklyn Hospital Center. He attends St. George’s University School of Medicine in Grenada, which pays hospitals for the slots. New York medical schools object to the policy. PHOTO: BESS ADLER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
By
LESLIE BRODY
April 26, 2016 5:18 p.m. ET
2 COMMENTS

New York medical schools and their competitors offshore are clashing over a precious resource: the opportunity for students to watch and learn from doctors in hospitals.

Students in their third and fourth year of medical school need clinical clerkships so they can see how doctors diagnose patients, perform surgeries and deliver babies.

Officials at New York medical schools say it is becoming harder to find sites for these rotations, partly because for-profit offshore medical schools, often in the Caribbean, have bought slots from New York hospitals at prices topping $400 a week per student.

American medical schools typically don’t pay for spots this way, instead offering hospitals that help train students the prestige and benefits of university affiliations. Leaders of New York’s medical schools balk at paying for each clerkship.

“It’s immoral,” said Edward Halperin, chancellor of New York Medical College in Valhalla, in Westchester County. “I don’t think human illness is a commodity to be sold in the marketplace.”

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Amanda Santa Maria, another medical student at St. George's University School of Medicine, practices scrubbing at the Brooklyn Hospital Center. PHOTO: BESS ADLER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Officials at offshore schools say it makes sense to compensate hospitals that help them. G. Richard Olds, president of St. George’s University School of Medicine in Grenada, said “it does cost them money, time and energy.”

St. George’s has paid nearly $38 million for clerkships since 2007 to NYC Health + Hospitals, according to a spokeswoman at the city agency. She said the deal didn’t displace students from U.S. medical schools but was a complement. The spokeswoman for the financially troubled system said the deal helped it address a shortage of primary-care doctors; under the partnership, the university gives scholarships for students who commit to work in public hospitals.

Concern over the purchase of spots has grown more intense as schools in New York and abroad expand to meet a projected shortage of physicians in the U.S.

During the tenure of former Chancellor Merryl Tisch, the state Board of Regents set up a committee that decides whether to approve international medical schools that want to place students in clerkships longer than 12 weeks. State education department officials said these offshore schools haven’t been permitted to add slots in the past two years while this committee, led by two Regents, reviews their quality under a tougher set of guidelines.

A department official said that process will be finished in about a year, and the agency also wants to examine the teaching hospitals’ capacity to absorb more students. Leaders of international schools want the moratorium lifted, while critics want them barred from New York clerkships altogether, or at least curbed from expanding.

“If offshore schools go on buying more clerkships…we won’t have enough slots for our own New York students,” said Lee Goldman, chief executive of Columbia University Medical Center.

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A spokesman for the Greater New York Hospital Association declined to comment because its members are split on the issue.

Medical schools on the small Caribbean islands have limited sites there for clinical training. Many of their students didn’t get into U.S. schools and hope to work in the U.S., where many grew up.

Almost half of the clerkships lasting more than 12 weeks in New York are filled by students from schools offshore, according to Associated Medical Schools of New York, a coalition of the state’s 16 medical schools.

Jo Wiederhorn, president of the group, said letting for-profit overseas schools buy clerkships hurts her members’ ability to train better-qualified students.

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Mr. Zielinski checks on a patient at the Brooklyn Hospital Center. PHOTO: BESS ADLER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Demand for these slots has grown as enrollment among New York schools rose 22% in a decade, to about 10,500 medical students last year. Meanwhile, some clerkship spots have been lost due to hospital closures and mergers.

Officials at offshore schools say their students perform an important public service: After getting licensed, they are more likely to work in underserved neighborhoods and short-handed fields like primary care.

They say their graduates also tend to be more diverse: At American University of Antigua College of Medicine, officials say about 20% are African-American.

Neal Simon, president of that institution, said his school’s students had lower grade point averages and Medical College Admission Test scores on average than those at U.S. schools, but such statistics don’t predict who will be a better doctor, and his students are qualified.

American medical schools must meet standards set by a group called the Liaison Committee on Medical Education. Leaders of offshore schools say they have to meet comparable expectations.

‘If offshore schools go on buying more clerkships…we won’t have enough slots for our own New York students.’

—Lee Goldman, CEO of Columbia University Medical Center
Ms. Wiederhorn, at Associated Medical Schools of New York, said that isn’t enough. If these offshore schools want to train American students to work in American hospitals, she said, “they should definitely have to meet the exact same requirements that U.S. medical schools have to meet.”

Dr. Olds, at St. George’s University, said his school is approved in all the states where it sends students for clerkships and in March, 831 of its students obtained first-year residency posts at U.S. institutions on their first attempt through the national matching program. He estimated about 90% of its U.S. citizens did so in past years.

American medical school officials “like to suggest we are second-rate medical schools,” Dr. Olds said. “They like to suggest we are taking spaces that they need. I would say neither of those things are true.”
 
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Too bad they can't buy residency spots for all their students ;)
 
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Too bad they can't buy residency spots for all their students ;)
I agree, but the thing is rotation spot is an essential part of finding good residency spot afterwards. It's much easier to get into residency when people already know you, especially if it's a high demand residency spot. In this case number of AMGs will have to find their spots elsewhere due to Caribbean schools "buying out" those spots. IMHO there should be some balance, don't know the numbers, but if it's just 10% of spots we are talking about, then it's kinda ok, but if it is much more than that - then it's a real issue that needs to be addressed.
IMHO this is a Caribbean schools problem and it shouldn't be passed over to AMG shoulders by just paying to NY hospitals for rotation spots. Essentially students who go to Caribbeans for various reasons, but mainly because they couldn't get into US schools for their poor grades - are basically buying out those spots. This is wrong. I've seen this before in my country of origin
(eastern Europe) and it is the road to chaos, degradation, corruption etc. It doesn't end well.

P.S. My relative who graduated US med.school back in 2009 already faced similar problem in his rotations in NY. At that time it wasn't as widespread, but it affected him at one point at one of the NY regional Hospital (I don't want to call names). Unfortunately I see this issue is only getting more widespread. I understand money is driving force behind all of this - but it shouldn't be.
 
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Easy solution..

Send the carib students to hospitals in Mexico or keep them in the Caribbean to have them rotate there.

US MD and US DO folks deserve first dibs for US rotations.

All leftover spots in the shady areas should go to Caribbean students, just like in residency selection.
 
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Why it is important to get into a med school with established relationships at hospitals.

Once the Caribbean students start being unable to find residencies almost at all you'll see this change. That or those rich kids who can't get into the US will buy residency slots.
 
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Easy solution..

Send the carib students to hospitals in Mexico or keep them in the Caribbean to have them rotate there.

US MD and US DO folks deserve first dibs for US rotations.

All leftover spots in the shady areas should go to Caribbean students, just like in residency selection.

LOL Caribbean students need all core rotations to be green book certified to get into residency programs, hence why they are paying for these places. If they get left overs or train in Mexico, they are finished (don't get me wrong I don't support caribbean schools, but am looking at it from their point of view).
 
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Don't we all give LECOM a really hard time for not paying for rotations? But it's unthinkable that an US MD school should have to pay? Whatever. I don't like the Caribbean, but they're turning it into a moral issue when it's a financial one.

"But we're not-for-profit. We don't make money! It's unfair!"


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LOL Caribbean students need all core rotations to be green book certified to get into residency programs, hence why they are paying for these places. If they get left overs or train in Mexico, they are finished (don't get me wrong I don't support caribbean schools, but am looking at it from their point of view).

Not trying to argue with you particularly but let's be real... they do not deserve our rotations spots. Period.

They should have spent more time sprucing their app and applied to DO programs atleast instead of trying to cut corners.

Idgaf where they go... that's more available rotations for US students that went through a much more rigorous process to enter medical school.

This is a slap in the face to all US students, MD and DO alike, that can't get rotations without the hassle of driving further or getting theirs cancelled.
 
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Lol at the end of the article...

"American medical school officials “like to suggest we are second-rate medical schools,” Dr. Olds said. “They like to suggest we are taking spaces that they need. I would say neither of those things are true.” "

NRMP reports definitely suggest the first bit is true... and because... you are.

God this guy definitely has a strong case. lol Bull****
 
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Easy solution..

Send the carib students to hospitals in Mexico or keep them in the Caribbean to have them rotate there.

US MD and US DO folks deserve first dibs for US rotations.

All leftover spots in the shady areas should go to Caribbean students, just like in residency selection.

The point here is that the schools are paying hospitals to take their students, many of these hospitals lack adequate financial funds, so they are willing to take these students for compensation. DO schools for the most part do not pay hospitals for rotations nor do they give any compensation for preceptors, its on all on a volunteer basis. The larger MD schools usually own their own teaching hospitals.
 
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No matter what you think of Texas politics, it has solved this problem, and other states should follow Texas on this one.
 
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The Texas legislature passed a bill barring foreign medical schools from clinical rotations in Texas - the actual language forbids a state agency from giving them the necessary paperwork. The bill was signed into law by Rick Perry in 2013 (Senate Bill 215, Senate vote was 31-0, House vote was 135-5).
 
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The Texas legislature passed a bill barring foreign medical schools from clinical rotations in Texas - the actual language forbids a state agency from giving them the necessary paperwork. The bill was signed into law by Rick Perry in 2013 (Senate Bill 215, Senate vote was 31-0, House vote was 135-5).

I ****s with Texas.
 
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@Goro Can you explain to me how $400 a week per student is a hard price to beat when tuition at schools can range from $40k-$70k?
 
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Boo hoo to these NYC schools. They either need to fork out some dough to take care of their students or downgrade themselves to third class medical schools.
 
Boo hoo to these NYC schools. They either need to fork out some dough to take care of their students or downgrade themselves to third class medical schools.

Whatever they do... you are right that they gotta pay up. There are Carib school that accepts over 500 kids per term (whereas an average YEARLY class size here in the states is probably AROUND 200) .... and they ALL pay ATLEAST one semester's worth of tuition on that terrible island.

The Carib school can make it rain on hospitals here in the states which is soooooo not cool. This is ridiculous.
 
I agree with NYMC's stance that paying for rotations is immoral, but not because human misery is being monetized as they have pleaded. It's immoral because US medical students must be protected and have unequivocal priority over FMGs. # of spots which can be secured by SGU and the like should be capped at a modest amount.
 
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I agree with NYMC's stance that paying for rotations is immoral, but not because human misery is being monetized as they have pleaded. It's immoral because US medical students must be protected and have unequivocal priority over FMGs. # of spots which can be secured by SGU and the like should be capped at a modest amount.
Apparently these spots are being competitively bought with the highest price point being $400 a week. A rotation normally lasts around four weeks meaning the total cost of training one third year medical student for one rotation is about $1,600. Medical students go on approximately six to seven of these in their third year alone, but we can round up to ten and make it $16,000 for a clinical rotation spot.

Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine has been featured in several articles about New York City facing the big squeeze from Caribbean schools like St. George and Ross University. They have an osteopathic school in Harlem. Net tuition for third year students is: $91,378.

I understand that there is a lot of hidden cost that is not necessarily transparent such as factoring in for liability and other forms of insurance, however the fact remains that a lot of the differential cost is never explicitly stated which is why I was curious whether @Goro had any idea about what would drive the price point upwards.

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Apparently these spots are being competitively bought with the highest price point being $400 a week. A rotation normally lasts around four weeks meaning the total cost of training one third year medical student for one rotation is about $1,600. Medical students go on approximately six to seven of these in their third year alone, but we can round up to ten and make it $16,000 for a clinical rotation spot.

Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine (TUCOM) has been featured in several articles about New York City facing the big squeeze from Caribbean schools like St. George and Ross University. They have an osteopathic school in Harlem. Net tuition for TUCOM's third year students is: $91,378.

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Jesus H Christ. I went bug eyed when I saw the 3/4th year net expense.
 
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Jesus H Christ. I went bug eyed when I saw the 3/4th year net expense.
Living and working in and around Manhattan/Brooklyn I can tell you that high cost comes with the territory. Unfortunately, these articles always come up short to address how New York is prime real estate for competitive business. Ensuring that there is a mutual cap to be placed on residency spots to prevent bidding from getting ridiculous is crucial, even though bid capping is always going to be in terms of buying a contract of time and will never be an absolute.

The recent articles about the "Caribbean squeeze" always come up short with addressing the most important issue which is that in order to protect US medical education both medical university and hospitals need to sit at the table to discuss brass tax and about agreeing on a half-way point that is mutually beneficial to both parties.

I agree that Caribbean bidding is an issue and if spots in New York are restricted then appropriate measures should be taken by the AMA (or more appropriate org) to discourage NY hospitals from accepting Caribbean bid offers by offering competitive bids or to strike an alternative offer. Refusing to directly address the issue won't bring about any chance to the current modus operandi.
 
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If people are willing to pay it then there will be someone willing to sell it.

A colleague of mine from a very wealthy family was able to get into grad school in psych because her family paved $$$ the way. She has a brother who got into a Caribbean Med School because he thought it would be fun going to med school on an island and the size of the donation to buy one's way into US MD schools is sizable. When you have family that brings in millions of dollars a year then paying $100-$200K/yr for your child to be a "doctor" isn't that much in the greater scheme of things. There are enough of those in the US and elsewhere that these things will happen.
 
So in 3rd and 4th years, we obviously do clinical clerkship outside the school, so if we are technically not in school or use any of the school resource [beside precious OMM rotation], why do we still have to pay a full price 50k a year, considering the school don't have to pay for rotation slots?
 
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So in 3rd and 4th years, we obviously do clinical clerkship outside the school, so if we are technically not in school or use any of the school resource [beside precious OMM rotation], why do we still have to pay a full price 50k a year, considering the school don't have to pay for rotation slots?

If you think that's unfair, consider the 3rd and 4th year preceptors that are teaching DO students. They don't get paid and are not offered professorship. They get the real raw end of the deal.

Part of the answer to your question is that they don't have as many sources of income as MD school do. Most of it comes from tuition. MD schools can keep the costs lower because they get profits from research, the government (if a state school), donations, hospitals (if they own them or have strong affiliations with research going on) etc. DO school on the other use this preceptor form of teaching to cut cost down (since these preceptors are doing the job for free). Thus that income is allocated to the school, i.e. mostly the basic sciences faculty. Of course I am no financial expert, so I don't know all the reasons.
 
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Not trying to argue with you particularly but let's be real... they do not deserve our rotations spots. Period.

They should have spent more time sprucing their app and applied to DO programs atleast instead of trying to cut corners.

Idgaf where they go... that's more available rotations for US students that went through a much more rigorous process to enter medical school.

This is a slap in the face to all US students, MD and DO alike, that can't get rotations without the hassle of driving further or getting theirs cancelled.
I agree with you completely. However DO schools aren't cake go get into anymore either.

I am hoping at least from what Dr Buser has hinted at that the fmgs will sort of be the ones to suffer with the aoa and acgme merger. For God's sake we Dont have enough spots for US why the heck can people who went to U.S. medical schools not be matched.

I know that sounds shallow but it bugs me.
 
The state of NY also has to allow these schools to be able to send their students to rotate as MS-3/4 at its hospitals. So as long as their lobbyists keep buying the politicians and paying the state boards with huge contracts, this will keep happening. If it's not NY and Florida, they will start picking on some of the more "strapped for cash" states (southeast and eventually probably California).


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The state of NY also has to allow these schools to be able to send their students to rotate as MS-3/4 at its hospitals. So as long as their lobbyists keep buying the politicians and paying the state boards with huge contracts, this will keep happening. If it's not NY and Florida, they will start picking on some of the more "strapped for cash" states (southeast and eventually probably California).

Eventually probably California?

http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...y-School-Medicine-Signs-Affiliation-Agreement
May 30, 2012 10:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
NORTH BRUNSWICK, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM) and Kern Medical Center (KMC) in Bakersfield, Calif. today announced a 10-year affiliation agreement to allocate, on an annual basis, a significant number of core clinical rotation slots to RUSM students. The affiliation, which will allow RUSM students placed at KMC to complete all of their third-year clinical rotations there over 48 consecutive weeks, is the largest clinical affiliation arrangement in RUSM’s history.
 
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Eventually probably California?

http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...y-School-Medicine-Signs-Affiliation-Agreement
May 30, 2012 10:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
NORTH BRUNSWICK, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM) and Kern Medical Center (KMC) in Bakersfield, Calif. today announced a 10-year affiliation agreement to allocate, on an annual basis, a significant number of core clinical rotation slots to RUSM students. The affiliation, which will allow RUSM students placed at KMC to complete all of their third-year clinical rotations there over 48 consecutive weeks, is the largest clinical affiliation arrangement in RUSM’s history.

Should have known! Thanks for the info. Hard to imagine 3 states with so many medical schools (FL, NY, CA) are "allowing" these contracts. Everything is possible with enough money I guess.

http://www.caribbeanmedstudent.com/2014/02/which-states-are-most-img-friendly/

This is for residency, but gives you a picture of where they end up.


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Eventually probably California?

http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...y-School-Medicine-Signs-Affiliation-Agreement
May 30, 2012 10:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
NORTH BRUNSWICK, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM) and Kern Medical Center (KMC) in Bakersfield, Calif. today announced a 10-year affiliation agreement to allocate, on an annual basis, a significant number of core clinical rotation slots to RUSM students. The affiliation, which will allow RUSM students placed at KMC to complete all of their third-year clinical rotations there over 48 consecutive weeks, is the largest clinical affiliation arrangement in RUSM’s history.

Yupp. They've had Kern rotation spots for a while now. Doesn't mean that a majority of them get residency in Cali though. They still get shipped off to New York.

Even ending up in Bakersfield or Fresno is a challenge for these guys... and these aren't necessarily the "happening" areas when it comes to medicine.
 
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Eventually probably California?

http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...y-School-Medicine-Signs-Affiliation-Agreement
May 30, 2012 10:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
NORTH BRUNSWICK, N.J.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ross University School of Medicine (RUSM) and Kern Medical Center (KMC) in Bakersfield, Calif. today announced a 10-year affiliation agreement to allocate, on an annual basis, a significant number of core clinical rotation slots to RUSM students. The affiliation, which will allow RUSM students placed at KMC to complete all of their third-year clinical rotations there over 48 consecutive weeks, is the largest clinical affiliation arrangement in RUSM’s history.

Just as stated above they have had kern in their pocket for a while, nothing new. One of the few rotation sites where all green book certified rotations can be done. It still doesn't help the other hordes of caribbean students who have to travel like vagabonds to complete all their green book certified rotations.
 
simple solution.

1. US med schools should pay for the rotation as well, since WE paid for our clerkship.
2. US med students just need to do well on their USMLE. Period.

if you're an AMG and have a decent step 1 score, you will get at least 10 interviews and that WILL include MGH, UPenn, UCLA, UCSF, Memorial Hospital ( Brown University) etc
when i was matching, not so long ago, i didn't even think about the competition ( fellow AMGs,DO, IMGs, FMG) even though i was gunning for a good spot in California,
which everyone here will agree is one, if NOT the most competitive state, thanks to the weather!

Now if you barely pass step 1, then you start panicking and thinking about the competition.
BUT still, it's a known fact, that most programs will take an average performing AMG from an average state Med School vs an IMG/FMG with a 250 score.

So, AMG stop whining guys, the odds have always been on our favor.
You may not get your dream ortho/ derm residency BUT you will still get matched to something else.
These guys, on the other hand, their goal is to "simply" match.
 
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i realize this thread is old, but alas, it sorely needs some varied perspective if it should ever be read again.

as an IMG I take offense to a lot of the comments in this thread, and the elitist attitude that many commenters have taken. for that reason, allow me to enlighten you.

not all students in the Carribean are there because "they got poor grades". i for one, had fine grades. i started medical school at 33 years old and didn't want the fuss and waiting around to get accepted at a US school that teaches the exact same curriculum. it is hilarious to me how some of you kiddos think that in the modern era of technology that schooling is so different based on location. is the grey's anatomy text somehow different when purchased in the US? there are a fair portion of my cohort who are also in this circumstance.

while on the topic of GPA, since some of you seem to think that GPA matters, like at all...are most if not all US med schools graded on a pass/fail system? one that isn't even uniform? thus making whatever mark that appears upon your transcript meaningless? i must have missed something. in that regard, admission GPA is meaningless as well. which is why nearly all schools judge on MCAT scores by default.

what most of you probably don't realize is how lucky you are as US grads. you have everything going for you and you take it for granted. you think med school is hard in the US? try going to med school in a 2nd world country where you pay US prices in rent for housing that wouldn't be legal to rent out in the US. no hot water, brown water, heck, sometimes no water. it's 80-90 degrees everyday and there can be no AC, power goes out all the time, and that's if you can even afford it with the price per kilowatt around $1. ever paid a $600 power bill? i have. then there's the grocery bills. and lets not forget to mention how there will be random times when the whole island is out of cheese, or milk, or soap, and any manner of products you take for granted. the entire economy down here revolves around ripping students off. students pay nearly triple for everything because the locals quote differently for students and locals. if your rent is 1800 USD here, the local next door is paying 667 USD because they're charged in xEC and you're not. want a car? how about paying anywhere from 300-600 USD for a 87 Japanese import that barely runs, in a county with no road rules and no hospitals?

whats more, down here, you're just a number. getting into US med school may be more difficult, but once you're in that school holds your hand the whole time and basically doesn't let you fail. what's the attrition rate up there? we know, we talk to US students all the time. make up tests, second chances, lowers avgs. please. your class size is what? 50? 100 tops? you actually get to see your profs. right now, my class is 720 strong, and it will get bigger before yr 4. these schools don't care about us. it's the Thunderdome down here. if you fail anything, you're done. no make ups. no retakes. no resources. all these schools care about is their profit margin, and their step pass rates to bring in more customers. there's no comradery either, everyone down here is your competition, you find yourself actively hoping your classmates fail so you'll have a better shot a matching.

speaking of matching, lets talk about that. the US kids avg 90-95% match rates. what's ours? 60%. and you have the audacity to complain about the clerkships? please. you guys pretty much always get what you want. and all this because what? our MCAT was a 505 instead of 511, on a meaningless test that has nothing to do with medicine? because residencies are funded through medicare? well guess what..the vast majority of us down here are US citizens. so we should have equal shots at everything. yet we don't simply because of where we went to school. and you should see the resumes and CVs of the Canadians that get stuck down here, they could have got into harvard if they applied there with their stats. all this coming from the same group of cry babies that demanded the step go pass/fail because they didn't match into ROADS, or neurosurg. boohoo, I went to UCLA and didn't get into plastics. what a joke.

the bottom line is thus; of course our schools are gonna pay to get spots. it's the natural progression of competition, and we deserve it more. we pay more money to go to school, we fight way harder to stay there, which all shows that we want it way more. if US schools are gonna continue to try and take a free ride, the market will reflect that. which I obviously why my school keeps adding more and more hospitals to our list, because that's all hospitals care about too. making money.

so next time you lot look down your nose at us for going to school in the Carribean, maybe stop and give us a pat on the back and realize how easy you had it in comparison, and how easy you had it after, and for what? a meager difference in non-applicable test scores the content of which none of us ever actually use or even really remember past admission anyway?
 
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i realize this thread is old, but alas, it sorely needs some varied perspective if it should ever be read again.

as an IMG I take offense to a lot of the comments in this thread, and the elitist attitude that many commenters have taken. for that reason, allow me to enlighten you.

not all students in the Carribean are there because "they got poor grades". i for one, had fine grades. i started medical school at 33 years old and didn't want the fuss and waiting around to get accepted at a US school that teaches the exact same curriculum. it is hilarious to me how some of you kiddos think that in the modern era of technology that schooling is so different based on location. is the grey's anatomy text somehow different when purchased in the US? there are a fair portion of my cohort who are also in this circumstance.

while on the topic of GPA, since some of you seem to think that GPA matters, like at all...are most if not all US med schools graded on a pass/fail system? one that isn't even uniform? thus making whatever mark that appears upon your transcript meaningless? i must have missed something. in that regard, admission GPA is meaningless as well. which is why nearly all schools judge on MCAT scores by default.
This entire posts just reeks of attempted self validation. The "fuss"? you drank our school's Kool-Aid. You were lazy, and wanted a faster way to get to becoming a physician at your age and that's fine but don't make it seem like you were guaranteed a spot. Look at the schools' average GPA and MCAT scores and most of your classmates; having strong applicants that chose Carib as opposed to uncompetitive applicants that had to go here is not common.

what most of you probably don't realize is how lucky you are as US grads. you have everything going for you and you take it for granted. you think med school is hard in the US? try going to med school in a 2nd world country where you pay US prices in rent for housing that wouldn't be legal to rent out in the US. no hot water, brown water, heck, sometimes no water. it's 80-90 degrees everyday and there can be no AC, power goes out all the time, and that's if you can even afford it with the price per kilowatt around $1. ever paid a $600 power bill? i have. then there's the grocery bills. and lets not forget to mention how there will be random times when the whole island is out of cheese, or milk, or soap, and any manner of products you take for granted. the entire economy down here revolves around ripping students off. students pay nearly triple for everything because the locals quote differently for students and locals. if your rent is 1800 USD here, the local next door is paying 667 USD because they're charged in xEC and you're not. want a car? how about paying anywhere from 300-600 USD for a 87 Japanese import that barely runs, in a county with no road rules and no hospitals?
No one cares about the costs we incurred, you went into the predatory system knowing full well (given you actual did research regarding costs and COL).

whats more, down here, you're just a number. getting into US med school may be more difficult, but once you're in that school holds your hand the whole time and basically doesn't let you fail. what's the attrition rate up there? we know, we talk to US students all the time. make up tests, second chances, lowers avgs. please. your class size is what? 50? 100 tops? you actually get to see your profs. right now, my class is 720 strong, and it will get bigger before yr 4. these schools don't care about us. it's the Thunderdome down here. if you fail anything, you're done. no make ups. no retakes. no resources. all these schools care about is their profit margin, and their step pass rates to bring in more customers. there's no comradery either, everyone down here is your competition, you find yourself actively hoping your classmates fail so you'll have a better shot a matching.
High attrition is not some rite of passage. It's bad faith tactics in how they accept student they know will likely fail out.

speaking of matching, lets talk about that. the US kids avg 90-95% match rates. what's ours? 60%. and you have the audacity to complain about the clerkships? please. you guys pretty much always get what you want. and all this because what? our MCAT was a 505 instead of 511, on a meaningless test that has nothing to do with medicine? because residencies are funded through medicare? well guess what..the vast majority of us down here are US citizens. so we should have equal shots at everything. yet we don't simply because of where we went to school. and you should see the resumes and CVs of the Canadians that get stuck down here, they could have got into harvard if they applied there with their stats. all this coming from the same group of cry babies that demanded the step go pass/fail because they didn't match into ROADS, or neurosurg. boohoo, I went to UCLA and didn't get into plastics. what a joke.
Canadians can apply to US schools too if they have "Harvard stats."

the bottom line is thus; of course our schools are gonna pay to get spots. it's the natural progression of competition, and we deserve it more. we pay more money to go to school, we fight way harder to stay there, which all shows that we want it way more. if US schools are gonna continue to try and take a free ride, the market will reflect that. which I obviously why my school keeps adding more and more hospitals to our list, because that's all hospitals care about too. making money.

so next time you lot look down your nose at us for going to school in the Carribean, maybe stop and give us a pat on the back and realize how easy you had it in comparison, and how easy you had it after, and for what? a meager difference in non-applicable test scores the content of which none of us ever actually use or even really remember past admission anyway?

Of course US students will complain if US schools are losing out on their rotation sites to foreign schools. Now in the defense of that, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue for USMD schools, more so for smaller, private DO schools. On the topic of DO, a 505 would put your foot in the door to DO and most students in Carib schools DON'T have a 505+; Ross's average is a 493 with SGU at a 498 I believe.

None of what you said will make a single person think better about Caribbean students. You sound like a middle-aged pre-clinical student with a chip on your shoulder. Keep your head down, let randoms on forums from over half a decade ago say what they think, and just focus on the actual important things such as passing.
 
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i realize this thread is old, but alas, it sorely needs some varied perspective if it should ever be read again.

as an IMG I take offense to a lot of the comments in this thread, and the elitist attitude that many commenters have taken. for that reason, allow me to enlighten you.

not all students in the Carribean are there because "they got poor grades". i for one, had fine grades. i started medical school at 33 years old and didn't want the fuss and waiting around to get accepted at a US school that teaches the exact same curriculum. it is hilarious to me how some of you kiddos think that in the modern era of technology that schooling is so different based on location. is the grey's anatomy text somehow different when purchased in the US? there are a fair portion of my cohort who are also in this circumstance.

while on the topic of GPA, since some of you seem to think that GPA matters, like at all...are most if not all US med schools graded on a pass/fail system? one that isn't even uniform? thus making whatever mark that appears upon your transcript meaningless? i must have missed something. in that regard, admission GPA is meaningless as well. which is why nearly all schools judge on MCAT scores by default.

what most of you probably don't realize is how lucky you are as US grads. you have everything going for you and you take it for granted. you think med school is hard in the US? try going to med school in a 2nd world country where you pay US prices in rent for housing that wouldn't be legal to rent out in the US. no hot water, brown water, heck, sometimes no water. it's 80-90 degrees everyday and there can be no AC, power goes out all the time, and that's if you can even afford it with the price per kilowatt around $1. ever paid a $600 power bill? i have. then there's the grocery bills. and lets not forget to mention how there will be random times when the whole island is out of cheese, or milk, or soap, and any manner of products you take for granted. the entire economy down here revolves around ripping students off. students pay nearly triple for everything because the locals quote differently for students and locals. if your rent is 1800 USD here, the local next door is paying 667 USD because they're charged in xEC and you're not. want a car? how about paying anywhere from 300-600 USD for a 87 Japanese import that barely runs, in a county with no road rules and no hospitals?

whats more, down here, you're just a number. getting into US med school may be more difficult, but once you're in that school holds your hand the whole time and basically doesn't let you fail. what's the attrition rate up there? we know, we talk to US students all the time. make up tests, second chances, lowers avgs. please. your class size is what? 50? 100 tops? you actually get to see your profs. right now, my class is 720 strong, and it will get bigger before yr 4. these schools don't care about us. it's the Thunderdome down here. if you fail anything, you're done. no make ups. no retakes. no resources. all these schools care about is their profit margin, and their step pass rates to bring in more customers. there's no comradery either, everyone down here is your competition, you find yourself actively hoping your classmates fail so you'll have a better shot a matching.

speaking of matching, lets talk about that. the US kids avg 90-95% match rates. what's ours? 60%. and you have the audacity to complain about the clerkships? please. you guys pretty much always get what you want. and all this because what? our MCAT was a 505 instead of 511, on a meaningless test that has nothing to do with medicine? because residencies are funded through medicare? well guess what..the vast majority of us down here are US citizens. so we should have equal shots at everything. yet we don't simply because of where we went to school. and you should see the resumes and CVs of the Canadians that get stuck down here, they could have got into harvard if they applied there with their stats. all this coming from the same group of cry babies that demanded the step go pass/fail because they didn't match into ROADS, or neurosurg. boohoo, I went to UCLA and didn't get into plastics. what a joke.

the bottom line is thus; of course our schools are gonna pay to get spots. it's the natural progression of competition, and we deserve it more. we pay more money to go to school, we fight way harder to stay there, which all shows that we want it way more. if US schools are gonna continue to try and take a free ride, the market will reflect that. which I obviously why my school keeps adding more and more hospitals to our list, because that's all hospitals care about too. making money.

so next time you lot look down your nose at us for going to school in the Carribean, maybe stop and give us a pat on the back and realize how easy you had it in comparison, and how easy you had it after, and for what? a meager difference in non-applicable test scores the content of which none of us ever actually use or even really remember past admission anyway?
Hey I think Caribbean discrimination is really stupid. Furthermore, I think it’s ridiculous that USMD schools are crying woe is me because another school is putting tuition money toward medical education instead of whatever they’re doing with it.

I respect the hell out of anyone who gets through the Caribbean.

As you know, you have to grind like crazy to get into a good medical school. But you admit in your post that you didn’t feel like doing the work in premed and took the easy way into med school. You instead chose to make the med school experience much harder because you didn’t want a long and drawn out premed experience.

Dealing with a predatory school in third world living conditions doesn’t make you somehow better or more deserving. It makes you short-sighted because you admit to choosing it.

I get not being able to put together the app and going to a Caribbean school, even though I don’t recommend it. But being able to and choosing not to is kind of insane.
 
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i realize this thread is old, but alas, it sorely needs some varied perspective if it should ever be read again.

as an IMG I take offense to a lot of the comments in this thread, and the elitist attitude that many commenters have taken. for that reason, allow me to enlighten you.

not all students in the Carribean are there because "they got poor grades". i for one, had fine grades. i started medical school at 33 years old and didn't want the fuss and waiting around to get accepted at a US school that teaches the exact same curriculum. it is hilarious to me how some of you kiddos think that in the modern era of technology that schooling is so different based on location. is the grey's anatomy text somehow different when purchased in the US? there are a fair portion of my cohort who are also in this circumstance.

while on the topic of GPA, since some of you seem to think that GPA matters, like at all...are most if not all US med schools graded on a pass/fail system? one that isn't even uniform? thus making whatever mark that appears upon your transcript meaningless? i must have missed something. in that regard, admission GPA is meaningless as well. which is why nearly all schools judge on MCAT scores by default.

what most of you probably don't realize is how lucky you are as US grads. you have everything going for you and you take it for granted. you think med school is hard in the US? try going to med school in a 2nd world country where you pay US prices in rent for housing that wouldn't be legal to rent out in the US. no hot water, brown water, heck, sometimes no water. it's 80-90 degrees everyday and there can be no AC, power goes out all the time, and that's if you can even afford it with the price per kilowatt around $1. ever paid a $600 power bill? i have. then there's the grocery bills. and lets not forget to mention how there will be random times when the whole island is out of cheese, or milk, or soap, and any manner of products you take for granted. the entire economy down here revolves around ripping students off. students pay nearly triple for everything because the locals quote differently for students and locals. if your rent is 1800 USD here, the local next door is paying 667 USD because they're charged in xEC and you're not. want a car? how about paying anywhere from 300-600 USD for a 87 Japanese import that barely runs, in a county with no road rules and no hospitals?

whats more, down here, you're just a number. getting into US med school may be more difficult, but once you're in that school holds your hand the whole time and basically doesn't let you fail. what's the attrition rate up there? we know, we talk to US students all the time. make up tests, second chances, lowers avgs. please. your class size is what? 50? 100 tops? you actually get to see your profs. right now, my class is 720 strong, and it will get bigger before yr 4. these schools don't care about us. it's the Thunderdome down here. if you fail anything, you're done. no make ups. no retakes. no resources. all these schools care about is their profit margin, and their step pass rates to bring in more customers. there's no comradery either, everyone down here is your competition, you find yourself actively hoping your classmates fail so you'll have a better shot a matching.

speaking of matching, lets talk about that. the US kids avg 90-95% match rates. what's ours? 60%. and you have the audacity to complain about the clerkships? please. you guys pretty much always get what you want. and all this because what? our MCAT was a 505 instead of 511, on a meaningless test that has nothing to do with medicine? because residencies are funded through medicare? well guess what..the vast majority of us down here are US citizens. so we should have equal shots at everything. yet we don't simply because of where we went to school. and you should see the resumes and CVs of the Canadians that get stuck down here, they could have got into harvard if they applied there with their stats. all this coming from the same group of cry babies that demanded the step go pass/fail because they didn't match into ROADS, or neurosurg. boohoo, I went to UCLA and didn't get into plastics. what a joke.

the bottom line is thus; of course our schools are gonna pay to get spots. it's the natural progression of competition, and we deserve it more. we pay more money to go to school, we fight way harder to stay there, which all shows that we want it way more. if US schools are gonna continue to try and take a free ride, the market will reflect that. which I obviously why my school keeps adding more and more hospitals to our list, because that's all hospitals care about too. making money.

so next time you lot look down your nose at us for going to school in the Carribean, maybe stop and give us a pat on the back and realize how easy you had it in comparison, and how easy you had it after, and for what? a meager difference in non-applicable test scores the content of which none of us ever actually use or even really remember past admission anyway?
I feel a Lot of angry projection and low self esteem in this post… unfortunately how you do on exams and grades(gpa) in undergrad matters a lot, a 505 vs 511 matters, as does a 3.8 gpa vs a 2.8 gpa. Medical school seats in the US(MD/DO) are a commodity and competition for them is very high. No one expects you to get a 515 and a 4.0 to get into any US school(unless gunning for Harvard). Plenty of USMD and of course DO schools routinely accept people with lower stats, look at the averages. As far as age is concerned many state side schools do take in career changers, yes you have to retake or take for the first time the prerequisites and do decently in them and yes you have to do decently enough on the mcat but I’d want my future physician to do atleast that before I entrust them with my life and medical schools(USMD/DO) want to see that before they give you a seat so they can feel reasonably comfortable that you can finish the program. My DO school had plenty of non trad students, plenty of people who did masters programs to fix GPA and they went on to become fine physicians. Residency programs view the Caribbean as short cut to this process, because quite frankly given the massive class sizes at carribean schools it’s hard to imagine that there aren’t many very low gpa, very low mcat people in the class who “want to go to med school on an island”… with that said I have a the utmost respect for those that make it out(around 50-60% given the attrition rates) at these schools. Also with a 505 mcat you should reasonably be able to get into a U.S. DO program if there aren’t any other major red flags.

In regards to the entitlement of spots.. NO, Caribbean students don’t deserve these spots over US students. These US students worked hard on the front end(very hard shall I add) to get admitted to a U.S. program, they didn’t take a short cut so they equally deserve these spots..
 
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