Canadian Optometry Income

[FrontRunner]

Hello all! Sorry, for the long question, but I hope some can lend an ear and give me some insight.

I have been researching Optometry for a very long time, and of particular concern is the income of ODs. The problem is, the vast majority of the stuff I have seen is American Statistics. Canadian statistics are very muddled because the majority of OD's seem to practice in PP (corporate is not dominant like it is in the states) which probably makes it more difficult to ascertain accurate income, considering bonuses and ownership play a big role in everything. Some sites, like glass door and pay scale count in hourly wage of techs and receptionists, which is obviously ridiculous, so it brings down the average a huge amount. All these sites paint a poor picture for OD income being in the 60-100k range. Considering debt load, it simply wouldn't be worth it. Yet, I personally have never met a newer grad who makes less than 100k in bigger cities, and many who landed jobs paying 130-170k right out of school in smaller cities. But even in Edmonton (1.4 million Metro population) I know new grads that don't seem to have much trouble piecing together 100-120k income per year.

I see hugely negative posts from individuals like Treytrey who paints Optometry in Canada as a post apocalyptic waste land, of an industry. He says there are very few FT jobs anywhere and all offer very poor income, and saturation is a huge problem. Yet, I cant help but see in British Columbia alone, well over 30-40 job postings, most of which offering 500-1000 per day (100-200k per year). Alberta is not much different. Offerings for buying practices are also strong, with most having revenue over 400k with cash flow over 150k for a single doctor office (assuming numbers are accurate). So all due respect TreyTrey, I would prefer you to not answer and inundate this post with negativity. I appreciate your contribution and definitely consider it, but I would prefer to hear some fresh voices (good and bad) from places out west, not the GTA.

I recognize dental and med is always more lucrative than OD, but I am not interested in them. I love everything about Optometry and there is nothing holding me back from going for it, but the small nag of ROI is there. I know the possibility of rolling in cash is minimal, but being able to pay off student loans (from an American school) in a reasonable amount of time and having a decent standard of living is what is important to me, anything extra is just a bonus.

Can anyone help me get a proper feel for Canadian new grad incomes? Alberta and British Columbia in particular. (Actual figures is appreciated, and PM if you don't want to post)

Thank you in advance!

P.s. I know there are some posts on this topic, but some are over 10 years old.

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[Optogal]

Honestly, it doesn't seem like you are really asking a question here. It seems you've made up your mind on what the situation is, and you're just looking for someone or some posts to validate your opinion(s). You've already come up with some specifics here and you mention you already know people who are in the situation you are inquiring about, and you already know how they are doing.

So you're right. If you come out and work here you'll probably do OK. You want me to guarantee this to you? I can't. But look at the data you've provided here already, and decide for yourself if you'll be an outlier to it or not.

No one can give you more than generalizations, and you've already provided more than enough in your opening post.

 

[FrontRunner]

Thank you for the thought, and you are absolutely right, I am looking for validation from people who have far more experience than I do. Of course it's never a guarantee, but I am looking for more data points to take into consideration. I don't want to commit to $300k in potential debt to have been misled by a few outliers I talked to or researched. Canada specifically has very conflicting statistics on optometry compared to the states which I mentioned above. (Alberta statistics says average is 70-80k, yet people I talk say it's much more). All I rely on is forums like this and the few individuals I talk to for Canadian income; with conflicting statistics I want to make sure the few people I have talked to are not the outliers you are talking about. So yes, validation from people who know what it's like in Canada, and not the states, is very helpful so I can make a more informed decision.

 

[London22]

Do you know if there are a lot of grads from the Canadian school that end up staying in Canada? Maybe you could talk to the school or try to find some grads from there who stayed in Canada who would feel comfortable talking about salary.

I'm not in school yet but I know someone who lives in Canada who works in research and told me "go to school wherever you plan to practice because it will make things much more simpler" when I had inquired about wanting to get out of the US.

I think the job postings you've been coming across are valuable information. If the posters with salary info are legitimate (which I would think so otherwise that's a waste of time for them to promote a false job expectation) and if they tend to fit in your range and COL then I think that will give you a good idea. You'd just have to keep a close eye and ear out.

Also I think the general concensus everywhere is that dental and med school provides a better ROI compared to optometry. Unfortunately I think thats just an optometry and eyesight thing. People say "don't become an optometrist in the US its too saturated...you'll get stuck in corporate blah blah" all the time but nobody listens lol. We have 23 schools and still manage to force this profession on everyone. Every time something new comes out everyone freaks out "omg optometry is over" but it never happens. School is insanely expensive and its normal for the average optom student to graduate in 250k loans. Most optometrists still live comfortable unless they are terrible with spending after school. You'll never see an optometrist on skid row unless they really screwed up. Every recent grad I've talked to manages fine.
Worst case scenario if you couldn't find a good job in Canada you could come to the US. Something tells me theres less saturation in Canada vs the US but I'm just assuming.

If you really want to become an optometrist and there's no other job you'd be happy in then you'll be biting yourself in the ass if you don't become one. But thats all up to you. Whichever path you choose I'm sure everything will work out great.

 

[FrontRunner]

Do you know if there are a lot of grads from the Canadian school that end up staying in Canada? Maybe you could talk to the school or try to find some grads from there who stayed in Canada who would feel comfortable talking about salary.

I'm not in school yet but I know someone who lives in Canada who works in research and told me "go to school wherever you plan to practice because it will make things much more simpler" when I had inquired about wanting to get out of the US.

I think the job postings you've been coming across are valuable information. If the posters with salary info are legitimate (which I would think so otherwise that's a waste of time for them to promote a false job expectation) and if they tend to fit in your range and COL then I think that will give you a good idea. You'd just have to keep a close eye and ear out.

Also I think the general concensus everywhere is that dental and med school provides a better ROI compared to optometry. Unfortunately I think thats just an optometry and eyesight thing. People say "don't become an optometrist in the US its too saturated...you'll get stuck in corporate blah blah" all the time but nobody listens lol. We have 23 schools and still manage to force this profession on everyone. Every time something new comes out everyone freaks out "omg optometry is over" but it never happens. School is insanely expensive and its normal for the average optom student to graduate in 250k loans. Most optometrists still live comfortable unless they are terrible with spending after school. You'll never see an optometrist on skid row unless they really screwed up. Every recent grad I've talked to manages fine.
Worst case scenario if you couldn't find a good job in Canada you could come to the US. Something tells me theres less saturation in Canada vs the US but I'm just assuming.

If you really want to become an optometrist and there's no other job you'd be happy in then you'll be biting yourself in the ass if you don't become one. But thats all up to you. Whichever path you choose I'm sure everything will work out great.

Thank you! That is some good thoughts and advice!

 

[London22]

Thank you! That is some good thoughts and advice!

No problem! I completely understand where you are coming from in terms of being worried about the loans and ROI. I commend you for planning ahead and think you're headed in the right direction by considering all the factors!
A couple more things I just thought of if it helps, I've been told by many people to not go over the $250-275k mark. Ideally $225k-250k max. (that is based off the average $110k salary in the US) If you don't have any undergrad loans then you're even more ahead. Personally I already have $45k in undergrad so I was looking into every cost factor too, even the Puerto Rico school that's inexpensive which I decided not to apply to due to board scores.
There's a few good schools in the US with tuition that is a tad bit lower than your typical 40k a year to attend. Ex if you went to a US school you could look at SCO in TN, or maybe NOVA in FL which are a little bit lower tuition in comparison but amazing schools. There are also scholarships and such that you could be granted.
Last but not least, you could also apply to a few places if you were still on the fence. If it ends up being too much money and the ROI is low, then you could decline the acceptance and know that you did all you could to give it a whirl. (kindof a lot of work but big payoff for mental clarity if you decide against it, or for time saving if you do end up going)

Just curious are there additional fees you might have to pay when schooling in the US or for transferring credits from Canada?

 

[FrontRunner]

Agreed, it is a big financial commitment! But I feel like it will still pay off in the end.

For Canadians, the only thing you have to do when coming back to Canada, from a states school is you have to take the provincial Licensure exams in order to legally practice which costs about $1500 to take it and become registered, so its not that big of a deal.

 

[OD2022HOPEFUL]

I honestly think it is best to try find a job that you enjoy and if that's Optometry then go for it

 

[yetbun12]

Agreed, it is a big financial commitment! But I feel like it will still pay off in the end.

For Canadians, the only thing you have to do when coming back to Canada, from a states school is you have to take the provincial Licensure exams in order to legally practice which costs about $1500 to take it and become registered, so its not that big of a deal.

Actually you'll also have to take the Canadian boards, both written ($2000) and practical ($3900) in addition to the provincial jurisprudence exam to become licensed in Canada. The American boards are separate and do not allow you to practice in Canada.

Just wondering, why aren't you considering UW as a Canadian applicant? Tuition is so much cheaper than the states and its a very reputable program! Especially if you intend to practice in Canada, students from UW have a much higher pass rate (over 90%) on the boards compared to US trained students attempting the Canadian boards.

 

[FrontRunner]

Actually you'll also have to take the Canadian boards, both written ($2000) and practical ($3900) in addition to the provincial jurisprudence exam if your education is done in the united stated. Just wondering, why aren't you considering UW as a Canadian applicant? Tuition is so much cheaper than the states and its a very reputable program! Especially if you intend to practice in Canada, students from UW have a much higher pass rate (over 90%) on the boards compared to US trained students attempting he Canadian boards.

Thank you for the info! I didn't realize it was that in depth. I would love to go to UW. But unfortunately I do not have the grades. Now days you need at least a 3.7-3.9 GPA and a 370-390 on the OAT to get in. I have a friend who had a 380, and a 3.65, had a great interview and still got turned down. So sadly, it's not even worth the application fee...

 

[yetbun12]

I really think it's worth it to apply because its such a good program and it prepares you for practicing in Canada! I didn't think I would get into Waterloo but I did, and I have many classmates who got in on their second application after they re-wrote their OAT.

If you don't have the grades to get into Waterloo, you'll still be able to get into most US schools but just know that the board pass rates are much lower for US trained students on the Canadian board exam. The training and scopes of practice are somewhat different between the US and Canada. I'm not sure if prospective employers consider where you received your education, but there is a 100% employment rate within 6 months of graduating at UW.

http://www.oebc.ca/clientuploads/Annual Report/OEBC Exam Report 2016-17 FINAL.pdf

 

[itek2OD]

So yes, if you're Canadian, by all means apply to Waterloo. The money you save is worth it and it is much simpler borrowing that money from Cdn banks since all those that give out loans for OD school base it on UW costs. If you are bilingual, try out UM.

But its definitely safe to also apply to the US schools if you don't think UW is for you. Sure the pass rates listed above are accurate, but I don't know if they include the pass rates of Cdns that wrote the NBEO earlier that year. That's my advice - write the NBEO in March of your third year, that will give you great practice for doing well on tthe Cdn exam in October (start of fourth year). Well, at least it worked for me. ;^) Sure it costs a bit, but when you pass the test you'll see its worth it. you can make the money paid for the tests in a month or at least 3 months of work if you're not busy.

If you practice what you love, and you don't have too much competition, you should be fine with your profits. I think the saturation in US cities is at least 3 times what it is in Canada. in the US, a big way to get patients is to get on insurance panels. In Canada since the provincial plans cover eye care for at least 40% of the population its a lot easier to get people in. Keeping them and getting paid what you are worth is the next battle.

Good luck in your optometry endeavours!

 

[REBK]

I am an optometrist practising now for 10 years (ICO alum). I own my practice. I can tell you from my experience working in a big Canadian city, that optometry can be very rewarding (if done right), and in my experience more lucrative than family medicine. I won't get into specifics here, but I can say I paid my entire student debt off (~$300K in Canadian dollars), and purchased a practice within 5 years. If you'd like more detailed information, please message me privately (is that a thing on this site? This is my first time commenting).

As a guess, I would say the range of optometrist salaries in Canada is between $120-$600k per year. But that's just a guess.

 

[Optogal]

Interesting post. I'm going to assume that you are doing well and therefore you assume the range for "most" optometrists is from doing OK to extremely well. I don't think that's the case. I think there are those who are barely or not even getting by.

I can see how someone can hit 600K, or perhaps even higher. Anyone who's at the top of a multiple clinic, multiple doctor "chain" private practice can certainly do very well. The 120K bottom however, I would disagree with. New grads starting out in commercial, even those "flexile" to travel, will take some time before they fill out their schedule. These same folks, after several years may want to cut down their hours. I'm a Canadian grad from a few years back. I don't discuss salary with classmates, but I know one or two on the "lower end", I would say are probably just coming in at around 100K (guesswork) on roughly 4.5 days/week. They are not necessarily trying to max out their earning potential, but just kinda doing enough to give themselves the lifestyle they want. Others are doing well to probably very well.

Negative salaries almost certainly exist. I know of an optometrist (bridged in via the IOBP) who opened a "dispensing" practice on the 2nd floor of a medical building. Her English isn't very good, and she apparently isn't great at social skills either. I heard she gets basically one OHIP patient/day referred in by someone in the building. Obviously she gets no walk-by traffic. I don't know how she's getting by. I walked in one day to "have a look", and I caught the receptionist by surprise, playing on her phone. She obviously wasn't expecting anyone to come in. I don't know how she's paying her bills.

Another example here. Apparently a U.S. grad who returned to Canada and opened up. You'll see from the Google map time-specific images, how it opened, then closed. Negative salary.

Anyways - I don't know where you're located but it's nice to hear of your success story. I think the vast majority of optometrists are doing reasonably well (i.e. at least 100K) but I do think there are a few (probably IOBP) who don't really have connections to find work and don't know how to acquire those connections.

 

[REBK]

Thank you for your insight. I shouldn't have tried to guess. I have access to a survey from 300+ private practices, but I didn't factor in other modalities of practice, and that is a giant mistake.

I do think that any fee for service profession on earth has a range of income potentials, ranging from negative income up to seven figures, so you are definitely correct. Getting an OD degree essentially causes the bell curve of wages to be skewed slightly closer to the high end, and slightly away from the low end, but doesn't guarantee anything. Nor should it. In exchange for these slightly higher odds, we sacrifice our time (4 more years of education) and take on risk (tuition). In a free market, I suspect that this risk/reward calculation has balanced itself (ie at certain tuition rate, it no longer makes sense to be an OD). We arent there yet.

I do not want to give anybody false hope, but I think the current attitude of it's not politically correct to talk salary expectations is holding back new grads. I remember being a fourth year, and attending dozens of career fairs, and all I ever heard was what corporate was paying. Private docs wouldn't divulge much and rarely attended. After making zero dollars for essentially 8 years during schooling, and doing eye exams for free on externship, an offer of $90,000 per year at Wal-mart sounded pretty good. But that is exactly how many of my classmates got trapped. Get a decent job at wal mart, get married, buy a house, and next thing you know, its impossible to quit. You have to have access to all types of wage information, good and bad. I simply wanted to add some more good, since thats my personal experiences, and I see there is a fair amount of bad already on here. I know the personal salaries of 5 optometrists in Canada, as classmates, and I would say they are much closer to the higher end of the scale than the lower. But that's just my observations. Take it for what is worth.

I can also add, that as a brand new grad I took a job at Costco 2 times per week, and I was willing to drive 3+ hrs to each location. If I wasn't willing to drive, I would've made only $300-$400 per day. Because I drove to more rural costcos (were demand for an OD was higher), I never made less than $1500 per day at those sites. New gard, no experience, didnt have any fancy negotiating skills to get myself a better contract. Just willing to work hard (12 hr days when you include driving, no support staff at all!).

I hope this helps, as I all can do I speak from my personal experiences,

Best,
R

 

[Optogal]

Well, the two examples I gave were of private practice. Perhaps only people who were doing well, did the survey you speak of.

I never made less than $1500 per day at those sites.

This is insane. If I read you correctly, you were doing a max of 9 hours of clinical care and getting 1500 just on eye exams. Was everyone private pay or did some people have provinical health insurance? In Ontario, OHIP pays $40 for kids and seniors, so if half your day is kids/seniors, it makes it virtually impossible to break 1500 unless you're doing 30+ exams in those 9 hours, which I wouldn't exactly agree with, and it doesn't sound like (given your two posts here) you would be the type to do that. 1000 I get, but 1500...

Anyways - good for you.

 

[PreDent1846]

Hey guys, I'm a predental student, but I just want to chime in about Canadians working in the US.
If you are a Canadian citizen with MD (physician) or DDS (dentist), you can work in the US without employer sponsorship (TN-visa according to NAFTA agreement).
Some other jobs that can obtain TN-visa are lawyers, accountants, nurses, engineers, etc. Alot of Canadian professions that can work in the US without the sponsorship.
Optometrist is "NOT" one of the professions that can obtain a TN-visa (I still do not understand why), therefore will require a sponsorship from the employer. This means it is much harder to get a job in the US. If you are a Canadian optometrist, you have to find an employer who is willing to sponsor you, and this can be very very difficult.
H1b visa applications (visa you get with employer sponsorship) are complex and expensive. They cost in excess of $3,500 and the outcome is uncertain. Approval takes 6 - 10 weeks, which is followed by a wait for the acceptance lottery. It will be very hard to find an employer that is willing to invest $3500, and sponsor you.

I live in Michigan, and a lot of Canadians work here.
I personally think optometrist is a very good profession, but don't just assume that you can easily work in the US as a Canadian optometrist. Getting an H1b visa is extremely difficult nowadays (because of Trump government).