Can someone explain to me why this field isn't more popular?

[Robin-jay]

Every survey is from 180-280k average including the AMPA student handbook you can google it.

I've read that handbook almost cover to cover.

I think its just hard to figure the average price of pods because there's so much variability within the field.

So many salary sources seem to contradict, etc.

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[Stagg737]

It’s amazing people are still using BLS for pod salaries when MGMA average is 261 for general and 283 for surgical. Go look at the BLS for any specialty in medicine it is low. For dentists it something around 150 yet we were talking about how much better they are reimbursed than pods.

Every survey is from 180-280k average including the AMPA student handbook you can google it.

BLS includes residents and is based off of taxable income where physicians can write off income as costs. Look at actual surveys.

The problem is that those surveys are based off of what people say, which includes ballpark numbers and occasionally straight up lies. It's been the major criticism of both MGMA and Medscape surveys for years. BLS comes from tax data, so in terms actual legal accuracy I trust them more.

There are always caveats though. Side businesses aren't always accounted for, benefits make things inaccurate especially with surveys (I've found many people I've talked to in medicine in general have no idea what their benefits are actually worth), and sometimes people just don't report everything in taxes. I don't believe there's any single source that is the "gold standard" for income though, and with the immense variability of incomes (for both physicians and pods) I don't put much stock in any of the surveys.

 

[med2345]

The problem is that those surveys are based off of what people say, which includes ballpark numbers and occasionally straight up lies. It's been the major criticism of both MGMA and Medscape surveys for years. BLS comes from tax data, so in terms actual legal accuracy I trust them more.

There are always caveats though. Side businesses aren't always accounted for, benefits make things inaccurate especially with surveys (I've found many people I've talked to in medicine in general have no idea what their benefits are actually worth), and sometimes people just don't report everything in taxes. I don't believe there's any single source that is the "gold standard" for income though, and with the immense variability of incomes (for both physicians and pods) I don't put much stock in any of the surveys.

I haven’t met a podiatrist yet that made the BLS average or less.. I agree somewhat with what you’re saying. I think the AMPA has very accurate and reasonable numbers. Practicing podiatrists and new grads have told me since 3 year residencies there’s no need to take less than 150k staring and offers during last year of training are 150-250. I think that’s as accurate as anyone can assume

 

[Stagg737]

I haven’t met a podiatrist yet that made the BLS average or less.. I agree somewhat with what you’re saying. I think the AMPA has very accurate and reasonable numbers. Practicing podiatrists and new grads have told me since 3 year residencies there’s no need to take less than 150k staring and offers during last year of training are 150-250. I think that’s as accurate as anyone can assume

Fair enough. I'm not as familiar with how the implementation of required residencies has impacted salaries, just with the few people I know currently in residencies who have said they plan to sign hospital contracts between 140-170k (in the "flyover" states). From what I understand talking to pods, they typically start significantly lower in the outpt setting, but my info in that regard is pretty limited.

 

[josebiwasabi]

Just to dispell a few misconceptions:

1) With the exception of a handful of individuals in the country no one is a podoradiologist or podoneurologist etc. The main groups/categories of practicing DPMs in real life are a) chip and clip TFP aka "mustache pods", b) private practice with a decent mix of pathology typically with 0.5-1 day of surgery per week, c) reconstructive/trauma surgeon with 1-3 days of OR weekly, or d) wound care and limb salvage. Obviously there can be overlap between the groups.

2) DPMs that are 1 year out might make 130-150k due to low clinic volume when they first start... but most of the ones I know including previous grads from my program are all clearing 200k by the end of year 2. Most hospital contracts that I have heard discussed range from 180-250k starting plus benefits and bonuses.

3) How much money you make as an attending has very little to do with being at the top of your class. If you go into private practice it is all about your business skills. Anecdotally, several of my attendings in residency admit that they were very average students in school but now that they are partners in their group and partial owners of surgicenters they are making $$$$ about 6-7 years out. A good GPA will get you a chance at better training in residency but that does not necessarily translate into making more money.

4) being busy surgically does not mean you make more money. If you are in private practice you try to maximize your clinic time because that is where you make WAY more money. If you go to the hospital and spend a day doing 2 bunions, some hammertoes, and a flatfoot, I guarantee you made less than the guy in clinic who just saw 40 patients. Plus you cannot bill for clinic visits for the people you operated on during the during the global period.

 

[med2345]

Just to dispell a few misconceptions:

1) With the exception of a handful of individuals in the country no one is a podoradiologist or podoneurologist etc. The main groups/categories of practicing DPMs in real life are a) chip and clip TFP aka "mustache pods", b) private practice with a decent mix of pathology typically with 0.5-1 day of surgery per week, c) reconstructive/trauma surgeon with 1-3 days of OR weekly, or d) wound care and limb salvage. Obviously there can be overlap between the groups.

2) DPMs that are 1 year out might make 130-150k due to low clinic volume when they first start... but most of the ones I know including previous grads from my program are all clearing 200k by the end of year 2. Most hospital contracts that I have heard discussed range from 180-250k starting plus benefits and bonuses.

3) How much money you make as an attending has very little to do with being at the top of your class. If you go into private practice it is all about your business skills. Anecdotally, several of my attendings in residency admit that they were very average students in school but now that they are partners in their group and partial owners of surgicenters they are making $$$$ about 6-7 years out. A good GPA will get you a chance at better training in residency but that does not necessarily translate into making more money.

4) being busy surgically does not mean you make more money. If you are in private practice you try to maximize your clinic time because that is where you make WAY more money. If you go to the hospital and spend a day doing 2 bunions, some hammertoes, and a flatfoot, I guarantee you made less than the guy in clinic who just saw 40 patients. Plus you cannot bill for clinic visits for the people you operated on during the during the global period.

I’m not sure how else to word this.. but are hospital positions becoming more common and are new pods out of residency usually offered hospital jobs? Or is it preferred to ones that have been on practice for a while? I guess I’m asking how difficult is it to find a hospital job as a newer pod? I see VA positions open everywhere which is good considering the new bill, but excluding them?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

The type of commitment you're making is different. I wanna have the option to choose Rads or Path if i don't like patient contact. I wanna have the option to choose Anes over Surgery if i liked the OR but didn't like the hours. I wanna have the option to choose Neurology if i'm a super nerd who wants a cerebral speciality. I'm going by the stereotypes but you know what i mean. And you can match into all those fields even with primary care level scores on your boards.

Yes i would have my speciality dependent on standardized tests. Med school is a full time job and i don't want to study 5+ hours a day for 2 years trying to hit those As. I would much rather bust my butt during dedicated and come out with a primary care level score, which still allows me match into 7-8 specialities. Competing for GPA is just much more time consuming and i'm too lazy for it. Everyone is a gunner in med school and keeping up with them gets tiring.

The salary part has been discussed here so much there's no point rehashing it. Everyone will make their own conclusions just like i made mine. If you're confident with the data out there then by all means go for it.

All those reasons you stated is why we advise pre-pods to shadow first at multiple locations before committing to Podiatry (esp those who have stats for md/do programs). Many of times for whatever reason, applicants forget that this is a specialty field and not just 'general medicine'.

Yeah, we learn the same basic sciences as an MD/DO student and our clinicals for that matter also correlates, but it becomes Podiatry specific from 3rd year and it should be this way since it is a specialty. Imo, it's a good thing to know what you will be from day 1 of classes instead of ruling things out as you progress or make a decision based on the step scores.

 

[Robin-jay]

Yes i would have my speciality dependent on standardized tests. Med school is a full time job and i don't want to study 5+ hours a day for 2 years trying to hit those As. I would much rather bust my butt during dedicated and come out with a primary care level score, which still allows me match into 7-8 specialities. Competing for GPA is just much more time consuming and i'm too lazy for it. Everyone is a gunner in med school and keeping up with them gets tiring.

I agree to disagree here, I hate standardized tests, and would love for GPA to dictate specialty.

The salary part has been discussed here so much there's no point rehashing it. Everyone will make their own conclusions just like i made mine. If you're confident with the data out there then by all means go for it.

The above podiatrist that said the mean is around 200k, and I'm perfectly fine with that number.

 

[de Ribas]

I've read that handbook almost cover to cover.

I think its just hard to figure the average price of pods because there's so much variability within the field.

So many salary sources seem to contradict, etc.

Same with all other specialties. I have read multiple threads over at DO/MD forums how some people get offers around 140-160K. Others say they get anywhere between 180-220k. While others say they get over 300K. This is for FM salaries. So, they have similar variations and similar issues.

 

[Robin-jay]

Same with all other specialties. I have read multiple threads over at DO/MD forums how some people get offers around 140-160K. Others say they get anywhere between 180-220k. While others say they get over 300K. This is for FM salaries. So, they have similar variations and similar issues.

Yes, at the end of the day you gotta do what you love.

The real people complaining should be PhD chemistry or physics professors who ear 50-70k a year for working their tails off.

The 150k vs 250k almost comes to diminished returns in many ways.

I'd love 250k starting out with whatever path I'd choose, but 150k ain't too shabby in the grand scheme of things.

 

[GypsyHummus]

200K is really 120-130K after taxes, depending on where you live

150K is 100-105K depending on the state.

Not a ton of difference, plus most FM and IM I know work 55-60 hrs/week.

Yes, at the end of the day you gotta do what you love.

The real people complaining should be PhD chemistry or physics professors who ear 50-70k a year for working their tails off.

The 150k vs 250k almost comes to diminished returns in many ways.

I'd love 250k starting out with whatever path I'd choose, but 150k ain't too shabby in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Robin-jay]

200K is really 120-130K after taxes, depending on where you live

150K is 100-105K depending on the state.

Not a ton of difference, plus most FM and IM I know work 55-60 hrs/week.

Here are general ranges:

Podiatry 170,800 to $315,150 hours per week: 45 dollars per minute: 80


Family medicine 175,000 to $220,196 Hours per week 52.5 dollars per minute: 58

 

[GypsyHummus]

I dont read that at all. Almost every MD/DO is making well over 200K their first year out unless they are working part time. The lowest I have seen is a FM doc making 150K working part time.

Contrast with Podiatry, where the lowest Ive see was 50K as an attending. Granted, this is a statistical outlier, but the point is, it is much more easy to get a fair deal as a MD.

Same with all other specialties. I have read multiple threads over at DO/MD forums how some people get offers around 140-160K. Others say they get anywhere between 180-220k. While others say they get over 300K. This is for FM salaries. So, they have similar variations and similar issues.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I dont read that at all. Almost every MD/DO is making well over 200K their first year out unless they are working part time. The lowest I have seen is a FM doc making 150K working part time.

Contrast with Podiatry, where the lowest Ive see was 50K as an attending. Granted, this is a statistical outlier, but the point is, it is much more easy to get a fair deal as a MD.

Yeah I'm wondering what thread he was reading. Unless its outdated

 

[de Ribas]

Yeah I'm wondering what thread he was reading. Unless its outdated

There was recent threads about salaries where some people have stated that they earn less then 200k. Then there is one thread that had a survey and about 3 or 6 people stated they earn around 150-160k, while some say they earn more than 300k. I am just commenting that there are also variations in other specialties.


When I shadowed DO and there were 2 NPs on the clinic, we briefly discussed NP situation. He never told me what he earns and I never asked. But when he talked about NPs, he told me in a little frustrated way that NPs do the same thing, have less schooling and earn almost as much as he does.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

There was recent threads about salaries where some people have stated that they earn less then 200k. Then there is one thread that had a survey and about 3 or 6 people stated they earn around 150-160k, while some say they earn more than 300k. I am just commenting that there are also variations in other specialties.


When I shadowed DO and there were 2 NPs on the clinic, we briefly discussed NP situation. He never told me what he earns and I never asked. But when he talked about NPs, he told me in a little frustrated way that NPs do the same thing, have less schooling and earn almost as much as he does.

That's another plus for Podiatry. As of now, we do not have to worry about PAs/NPs taking over jobs, whereas they are everywhere in the primary care world.
Majority of city hospitals/outpatient clinics/trauma centers are run by PAs and NPs in NYC and I have seen them in almost every area of medicine but more so in IM/FM/EM/Psy and the CRNAs in Anes. PAs are everywhere including surgery/derm/ortho etc. Most PAs/NPs here can earn anywhere from 70-110K starting.

 

[de Ribas]

I dont read that at all. Almost every MD/DO is making well over 200K their first year out unless they are working part time. The lowest I have seen is a FM doc making 150K working part time.

Contrast with Podiatry, where the lowest Ive see was 50K as an attending. Granted, this is a statistical outlier, but the point is, it is much more easy to get a fair deal as a MD.

You guys contradict yourself quite often. When MGMA data is presented, you say: " it is not reliable because it is self reported". Then when some people bring stories, you say its anecdotes. Funny, but when you hear stories from MD forums or DO or other anecdotes, you guys accept them.

You state numbers like you have any other source besides some stories or online sources. There is no other way any of us would know any numbers. I am sure you or any of us have NOT seen at least some real pay checks or yearly earnings.

Whatever you bring up about attending earning 50K is also an anecdote that could or couldn't be true.

I have seen with my own eyes FM job offers that start at 160-180k in midwest. I have seen that start at 250k. There are variations in every specialty. Even CRNAs can start at 150k and some at 250k.

My friend neurologist, MD, has worked for almost 2 years so far. We never discussed his pay. But once he just mentioned that he might move to Chicago. I asked why so. He said, I often get offers from Chicago starting at 230K. He said that it would be worth of moving there for that salary difference. I made my conclusion that he must of be getting less than 200K now to justify the move.



There have been posts on MD/DO forums where some state that they would be very happy to get 200K for FM or peds positions. Of course it varies with what place you work at, location, type of work and such, but let's not wear pink glasses and say that as FM or Peds you can go anywhere you want and will be guaranteed 250K right out of residency.


I have been a neighbor to a pediatrician for more than 6 years. Our lots are adjacent. I never seen the guy and/or his family outside. They never use the yard, the pool or our lake. He leaves like at 4-5am and comes after 11pm on most days.

No, thanks. I dont need 200k to work as a horse and never see a daylight.

 

[de Ribas]

There was another post somewhere around here that brought a good point. You have to consider the hours people work. Tell me whatever you want, but FMs, Peds, IMs, and Ob/GYns work more on average than pods. Plus they often work weekends, nights, more call and if you are in the rural, you will have to serve the area hospital(s).


EDIT:

If you are going to get 350K as anesthesiologist in rural area, get ready to be the only one or one of only two anesthesiologists in a 60 miles radius with population over 100K.

My sister worked as a nurse with DO anesthesiologist for 3 years and she often described his life and his daily frustrations with his job.

 

[Robin-jay]

You guys contradict yourself quite often. When MGMA data is presented, you say: " it is not reliable because it is self reported". Then when some people bring stories, you say its anecdotes. Funny, but when you hear stories from MD forums or DO or other anecdotes, you guys accept them.

You state numbers like you have any other source besides some stories or online sources. There is no other way any of us would know any numbers. I am sure you or any of us have NOT seen at least some real pay checks or yearly earnings.

Whatever you bring up about attending earning 50K is also an anecdote that could or couldn't be true.

I have seen with my own eyes FM job offers that start at 160-180k in midwest. I have seen that start at 250k. There are variations in every specialty. Even CRNAs can start at 150k and some at 250k.

My friend neurologist, MD, has worked for almost 2 years so far. We never discussed his pay. But once he just mentioned that he might move to Chicago. I asked why so. He said, I often get offers from Chicago starting at 230K. He said that it would be worth of moving there for that salary difference. I made my conclusion that he must of be getting less than 200K now to justify the move.



There have been posts on MD/DO forums where some state that they would be very happy to get 200K for FM or peds positions. Of course it varies with what place you work at, location, type of work and such, but let's not wear pink glasses and say that as FM or Peds you can go anywhere you want and will be guaranteed 250K right out of residency.


I have been a neighbor to a pediatrician for more than 6 years. Our lots are adjacent. I never seen the guy and/or his family outside. They never use the yard, the pool or our lake. He leaves like at 4-5am and comes after 11pm on most days.

No, thanks. I dont need 200k to work as a horse and never see a daylight.

There was another post somewhere around here that brought a good point. You have to consider the hours people work. Tell me whatever you want, but FMs, Peds, IMs, and Ob/GYns work more on average than pods. Plus they often work weekends, nights, more call and if you are in the rural, you will have to serve the area hospital(s).


EDIT:

If you are going to get 350K as anesthesiologist in rural area, get ready to be the only one or one of only two anesthesiologists in a 60 miles radius with population over 100K.

My sister worked as a nurse with DO anesthesiologist for 3 years and she often described his life and his daily frustrations with his job.

I will tell you one thing, you know a lot of physicians lol.

 

[de Ribas]

I will tell you one thing, you know a lot of physicians lol.

I don't. I have one MD friend, one CRNA, and the others that I have shadowed. I only speak of what I have experienced.

 

[Robin-jay]

I don't. I have one MD friend, one CRNA, and the others that I have shadowed. I only speak of what I have experienced.

I have about 50 MD friends and 50 DO friends. This number was accumulated due to both being pre-med in undergrad. and chemistry graduate school where I taught hundreds of students.

Strangely enough, I had never met a pre-pod student in the 6-7 years I was in undergrad./grad. school.

It is truly a hidden field.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

You guys contradict yourself quite often. When MGMA data is presented, you say: " it is not reliable because it is self reported". Then when some people bring stories, you say its anecdotes. Funny, but when you hear stories from MD forums or DO or other anecdotes, you guys accept them.

You state numbers like you have any other source besides some stories or online sources. There is no other way any of us would know any numbers. I am sure you or any of us have NOT seen at least some real pay checks or yearly earnings.

Whatever you bring up about attending earning 50K is also an anecdote that could or couldn't be true.

I have seen with my own eyes FM job offers that start at 160-180k in midwest. I have seen that start at 250k. There are variations in every specialty. Even CRNAs can start at 150k and some at 250k.

My friend neurologist, MD, has worked for almost 2 years so far. We never discussed his pay. But once he just mentioned that he might move to Chicago. I asked why so. He said, I often get offers from Chicago starting at 230K. He said that it would be worth of moving there for that salary difference. I made my conclusion that he must of be getting less than 200K now to justify the move.



There have been posts on MD/DO forums where some state that they would be very happy to get 200K for FM or peds positions. Of course it varies with what place you work at, location, type of work and such, but let's not wear pink glasses and say that as FM or Peds you can go anywhere you want and will be guaranteed 250K right out of residency.


I have been a neighbor to a pediatrician for more than 6 years. Our lots are adjacent. I never seen the guy and/or his family outside. They never use the yard, the pool or our lake. He leaves like at 4-5am and comes after 11pm on most days.

No, thanks. I dont need 200k to work as a horse and never see a daylight.

Just tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[med2345]

Most of my family is in medicine and he’s actually right for the most part. They all work in rural areas and out of maybe the 10-20 I know that are family or friends of them, none of them make over 230 (not specialized ones).. most are 170-210 working as FM, IM, GP, hospitalist ect. Some have good schedules, many hospitalist are 7 on 7 off but they are basically slaves during 7 on. If you’re the younger attending you will be taking call and all of those work pretty heavy hours besides an on off schedule.

Just tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Most of my family is in medicine and he’s actually right for the most part. They all work in rural areas and out of maybe the 10-20 I know that are family or friends of them, none of them make over 230 (not specialized ones).. most are 170-210 working as FM, IM, GP, hospitalist ect. Some have good schedules, many hospitalist are 7 on 7 off but they are basically slaves during 7 on. If you’re the younger attending you will be taking call and all of those work pretty heavy hours besides an on off schedule.

7 on 7 would be freakin brutal. But it goes back to my original point, that luckily you don't HAVE to do one of those specialties if you dont like the job/pay.

 

[msion]

First of all, don't worry too much about pay. We have multiple threads discussing this and it should be clear that you will make a good living, most likely making more than the FM/EM/Peds specialties because procedure-based specialties generally make more. With Medicare dominating the market, how much surgeries pay depend on the RVUs. Believe it or not, forefoot surgeries generate more RVUs than fixing calcaneal fractures. Infections also pay well. So you can be very profitable if you are able to do couple bunion/hammertoe surgeries on your surgical days. But you have to be good, taking 3 hours to do a bunion is why some people say surgeries don't pay. You can take call at the hospital for foot and ankle injuries/infections and now more and more hospitals are realizing the values of podiatrists. Even in states that you aren't allowed to do ankle surgeries, there is still a great need for the other foot injuries and diabetic infections.

It is a small field, and hence the variation in salary numbers. The denominator is small.

This field isn't more popular because of lack of public education. Podiatrist are getting more and more attention these days in part because of the consolidation of the healthcare market. There tend to more referrals within the system, and there is a great need.

I am always very optimistic. Ironic thing is, the training is so advanced now for the new generation and the people who will likely to screw you over are not orthpods, nor hospital administrators or other MD/DOs, it's those "mustache pods" who are now retiring and need people to buy their practices.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed at least a 1 year intership to do anything medical related with a MD/DO and to get a medical license. Isnt that why the Caribbean is considered such a bad risk? If they could still secure good jobs afterword, there wouldnt be a flashing warning sign about Caribbean schools.

4) Didn't want to worry about residency shortage if it ever comes back. MD/DO without residency is more valuable than a DPM without residency
.

 

[GypsyHummus]

While its true that medicare is going to be a majority of the patients pods will see, I remember reading somewhere that medicare does not consider Pods as "physicians" and label their services as "non essential" for most of the bread and butter routine foot care (nails, corns, calluses). I think there was also a clause about things being covered if they were diabetic? Do you know anything about Medicare and how they view podiatrists?

First of all, don't worry too much about pay. We have multiple threads discussing this and it should be clear that you will make a good living, most likely making more than the FM/EM/Peds specialties because procedure-based specialties generally make sure. With Medicare dominating the market, how much surgeries pay depend on the RVUs. Believe it or not, forefoot surgeries generate more RVUs than fixing calcaneal fractures. Infections also pay well. So you can be very profitable if you are able to do couple bunion/hammertoe surgeries on your surgical days. But you have to be good, taking 3 hours to do a bunion is why some people say surgeries don't pay. You can take call at the hospital for foot and ankle injuries/infections and now more and more hospitals are realizing the values of podiatrists. Even in states that you aren't allowed to do ankle surgeries, there is still a great need for the other foot injuries and diabetic infections.

It is a small field, and hence the variation in salary numbers. The denominator is small.

This field isn't more popular because of lack of public education. Podiatrist are getting more and more attention these days in part because of the consolidation of the healthcare market. There tend to more referrals within the system, and there is a great need.

I am always very optimistic. Ironic thing is, the training is so advanced now for the new generation and the people who will likely to screw you over are not orthpods, nor hospital administrators or other MD/DOs, it's those "mustache pods" who are now retiring and need people to buy their practices.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

most likely making more than the FM/EM/Peds specialties

EM averages 300-350k.. No youre not most likely going to make more than them. Its not MORE LIKELY more than FM either. Sure its possible, but not more likely.

 

[GypsyHummus]

EM deserves every cent. Their hours are brutal, can you imagine doing overnights with that amount of stress for years as a career?

EM averages 300-350k.. No youre not most likely going to make more than them. Its not MORE LIKELY more than FM either. Sure its possible, but not more likely.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

EM deserves every cent. Their hours are brutal, can you imagine doing overnights with that amount of stress for years as a career?

I actually want to do EM haha I worked in one for a year and loved it.

 

[de Ribas]

Didn't want to worry about residency shortage if it ever comes back. MD/DO without residency is more valuable than a DPM without residency

Lol

Is pre-MD withoud MD school more valuable than pre-Pod without pod school?

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Caribbeans are considered a bad risk because your odds of becoming a physician from day 0 to graduation is lower than MD/DO. If you're an IMG senior who's a recent graduate, your odds of matching primary care is 70-80%. This is straight from NRMP charting outcomes. This doesn't sound as sexy as "IMG=50% match rate" though so it's rarely mentioned on sdn.

It's common for unmatched graduates (MD/DO/even Caribbean grads) to work as research associates, in pharmaceutical industries etc. until they match. It's obviously not ideal and they're non-medical jobs but it's just the way it is because MD/DO is more mainstream.

People who are not matching in any field are either filliping burgers or going into another career altogether...while the research assistant part is true for md students but for DOs and Imgs its a done deal if they don't match. Some of my IMGs friends who never matched are now in nursing schools, and some are in public health programs.
Without a residency, any of these degrees, including a DPM, is useless. There is no one is better than another if you don't match. MD is known more to the general public/world and even there without a residency, you can't do much with it (medically). Period.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

EM averages 300-350k.. No youre not most likely going to make more than them. Its not MORE LIKELY more than FM either. Sure its possible, but not more likely.

EM deserves every cent. Their hours are brutal, can you imagine doing overnights with that amount of stress for years as a career?

EM is a great field and they make good $$$ because they work like dogs and the stress level is maxed. Here most people work in a 3-4 day schedule doing the 12hr shift and taking rest of the days off without any calls to worry about. Its a great gig for young docs but it does wear one out; some people get bored also. In addition, in major cities, like I said above, the PAs are taking over the ED..slowly. Still a great field to match tho.

An FM doc who does not perform surgery makes less than a DPM who does surgery. A podiatric surgeon can easily make above 350K, this does not mean everyone is making this much or you can do it in any state, but the point the resident above was making is that if you perform surgery, your rvu, is better than someone who does not. Simple.

 

[de Ribas]

In addition, in major cities, like I said above, the PAs are taking over the ED..slowly.

That's what I saw in both ERs I volunteered. 1 attending, resident or two and 4+ PAs

 

[de Ribas]

EM is a great field and they make good $$$ because they work like dogs but the stress level is maxed.

What's very decieving for pre-meds is when they say that they work like 15-17 shifts per month. But they forget that their schedule is all over the place and you are constantly thrown around the clock.

You worked 2-10pm and then back at 4-5am and such. Then you may work one night, sleep and go straight to work at 2pm and come back when everyone in your family is sleeping. It's not about how many hours they work, it is about how it is hard on your family and kids if you have them. Over at EM forums, they often say, if your priority is family, EM is not for you. People often say that they regret going to EM even if they get 350K because it is hard to hang out with your family and friends.

 

[GypsyHummus]

IMG match rate is better than I thought, im surprised so many residencies are willing to take IMGs, especially with the recent expansion of new MD/DO schools stateside.

Its interesting too and pertains to the original question vs risk. Im surprised not more people with lower stats go DPM vs Caribbean. There was a recent thread about attrition rate for DPM, and for some of the larger schools its around 80%. Seems like odds are better at DPM school vs Caribbean. Im sure there have been people accepted to both that decided on DPM. Seems to me like a more sure way to become a practicing doc.

Caribbeans are considered a bad risk because your odds of becoming a physician from day 0 to graduation is lower than MD/DO. If you're an IMG senior who's a recent graduate, your odds of matching primary care is 70-80%. This is straight from NRMP charting outcomes. This doesn't sound as sexy as "IMG=50% match rate" though so it's rarely mentioned on sdn.

It's common for unmatched graduates (MD/DO/even Caribbean grads) to work as research associates, in pharmaceutical industries etc. until they match. It's obviously not ideal and they're non-medical jobs but it's just the way it is because MD/DO is more mainstream.

 

[med2345]

Is this true? I was under the impression that you needed at least a 1 year intership to do anything medical related with a MD/DO and to get a medical license. Isnt that why the Caribbean is considered such a bad risk? If they could still secure good jobs afterword, there wouldnt be a flashing warning sign about Caribbean schools.

IMG match rate is better than I thought, im surprised so many residencies are willing to take IMGs, especially with the recent expansion of new MD/DO schools stateside.

Its interesting too and pertains to the original question vs risk. Im surprised not more people with lower stats go DPM vs Caribbean. There was a recent thread about attrition rate for DPM, and for some of the larger schools its around 80%. Seems like odds are better at DPM school vs Caribbean. Im sure there have been people accepted to both that decided on DPM. Seems to me like a more sure way to become a practicing doc.

I have a friend who's doing well second year at SGU. Even though he's through and going to be able to take step one he tell's me how he regrets it because if he studied 1/10 as much as he has done now he would've done well on his MCAT. He said over half of the entering class (800 in the summers) fail or drop out. He also mention 80-90 percent go IM/FM/peds (the ones that make it through the hell) and some do well enough for gen surg and anesthesia. He said for the cost of living there and tuition its not worth it. Its 400k ish if you even finish and even then you're making IM/FM/ whatever salary paying back 400k. It's pretty terrible.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Did you ever suggest DPM to him?

I have a friend who's doing well second year at SGU. Even though he's through and going to be able to take step one he tell's me how he regrets it because if he studied 1/10 as much as he has done now he would've done well on his MCAT. He said over half of the entering class (800 in the summers) fail or drop out. He also mention 80-90 percent go IM/FM/peds (the ones that make it through the hell) and some do well enough for gen surg and anesthesia. He said for the cost of living there and tuition its not worth it. Its 400k ish if you even finish and even then you're making IM/FM/ whatever salary paying back 400k. It's pretty terrible.

 

[med2345]

Did you ever suggest DPM to him?

I did because he wants to do surgery. He was completely clueless that podiatrists do any type of surgery or really that podiatrists have a separate degree. Im not completely sure what he even knows. He's not really in the medicine know how/world as I would expect someone who took the risk at a Caribbean school. He mainly regrets not trying to study for the mcat first and maybe go DO. He said he would've atleast went DO if he could go back.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Did you ever suggest DPM to him?

I did because he wants to do surgery. He was completely clueless that podiatrists do any type of surgery or really that podiatrists have a separate degree. Im not completely sure what he even knows. He's not really in the medicine know how/world as I would expect someone who took the risk at a Caribbean school. He mainly regrets not trying to study for the mcat first and maybe go DO. He said he would've atleast went DO if he could go back.

DPM is always the better option than any Carribean MD programs. Unfortunately, not many premeds know about Podiatry or the full scope of a DPM (some also do not want to limit just to the lower extremity, which is fine).

But then there are those who may have the stats for DO schools but will risk it all for the MD title and try for it at one of these carrib schools; where few make it and many don't.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I’ve met one pod in person making less than bls before bonus (he told me around 10k/month). He was in a private practice as an associate. Not sure if this is before or after taxes, I didn’t ask.

The pod I shadowed worked in the hospital system, and when I broached the subject about DPM hospital pay, he said “about 120-150k with benefits, before bonus”. He was able to secure Public service loan forgiveness with this hospital, so that’s gonna be nice in the backend (although I heard they have to pay taxes on the amount forgiven? Does anyone know if this is true?).

I have not met a pod making 200k+, but then again, the pods I shadowed were both working 40-50 hrs/week. I’m sure if they worked longer hours they could take home more pay, and they pods were fresh out of residency-3 years out.

I haven’t met a podiatrist yet that made the BLS average or less.. I agree somewhat with what you’re saying. I think the AMPA has very accurate and reasonable numbers. Practicing podiatrists and new grads have told me since 3 year residencies there’s no need to take less than 150k staring and offers during last year of training are 150-250. I think that’s as accurate as anyone can assume

 

[Alpha ketoglutarate]

Because "ew feet"

Haha. I get this, I really do. Many of my friends who are planning to apply to a variety of different schools say the same thing, to which I respond, "Couldn't it just be eww medicine?"
To be honest, most of the body has some things about it that can be pretty gross. But, we as physicians strive to help those people. Ask a urologist or OB if they think nothing they do is gross.

 

[IDontHaveAnyFeet]

I’ve met one pod in person making less than bls before bonus (he told me around 10k/month). He was in a private practice as an associate. Not sure if this is before or after taxes, I didn’t ask.

The pod I shadowed worked in the hospital system, and when I broached the subject about DPM hospital pay, he said “about 120-150k with benefits, before bonus”. He was able to secure Public service loan forgiveness with this hospital, so that’s gonna be nice in the backend (although I heard they have to pay taxes on the amount forgiven? Does anyone know if this is true?).

I have not met a pod making 200k+, but then again, the pods I shadowed were both working 40-50 hrs/week. I’m sure if they worked longer hours they could take home more pay, and they pods were fresh out of residency-3 years out.

Im not sure if youve considered this, but I have been pretty heavily interested in financial independence lately.
It stems from the idea that folks fight over one guys salary being 150 k, the other guy making 200, maybe 250.
Like you mentioned earlier after taxes these numbers arent so far apart 250K becomes 150k and 150 becomes 100k. Yeah we can argue the 50 k is a pretty good amount but not worth sacrificing your life, your happiness over by bumping 40 hours to 60+ hours a week. (weve all worked 12+ hour days in our life) and know how much that extra 4 hours can break your back

Bottom line is, 150k, 250k, 500k, none of these guys are going to be living in private yachts, EVER afford a house in beverly hills, buy a buggatti without chunking out a house payment's worth of salary into it. But what does matter is how much time you save + how you invest the money

An individual (lets say a PA) can find himself ahead of a 250 k /year podiatrist if he uses the 5 year head start in investing his money into passive income sources. (High interest banks, property with rent return, crowd funding real estate, stocks etc)

 

[GypsyHummus]

Agree. While I like nice cars, I’d rather spend 20k and put the other 40k I would have spent on a Luxury car to stock options.

Im not sure if youve considered this, but I have been pretty heavily interested in financial independence lately.
It stems from the idea that folks fight over one guys salary being 150 k, the other guy making 200, maybe 250.
Like you mentioned earlier after taxes these numbers arent so far apart 250K becomes 150k and 150 becomes 100k. Yeah we can argue the 50 k is a pretty good amount but not worth sacrificing your life, your happiness over by bumping 40 hours to 60+ hours a week. (weve all worked 12+ hour days in our life) and know how much that extra 4 hours can break your back

Bottom line is, 150k, 250k, 500k, none of these guys are going to be living in private yachts, EVER afford a house in beverly hills, buy a buggatti without chunking out a house payment's worth of salary into it. But what does matter is how much time you save + how you invest the money

An individual (lets say a PA) can find himself ahead of a 250 k /year podiatrist if he uses the 5 year head start in investing his money into passive income sources. (High interest banks, property with rent return, crowd funding real estate, stocks etc)

 

[IDontHaveAnyFeet]

Agree. While I like nice cars, I’d rather spend 20k and put the other 40k I would have spent on a Luxury car to stock options.

Thats the idea!
My current goal/plan is to collect 1 million over 10-15 years, put it in a high interest bank (6-8%) in a low COL country, and retire off the 60k a year I get, and if interest rates drop, theres always the million dollars to help me back up

 

[heybrother]

Investing in foreign banks/currency subjects you to currency risk. Take a look at the Turkish Lira right now. If your ultimate needs will be paid in American dollars, how high an interest rate would a local bank have to pay you in local currency to make up for that overall currency devaluing by half against the dollar.

Other countries are fickle. I used to work for a megacorp. At their headquarters they have a handwoven rug on a wall in a display. Decades before they did a major project in a 3rd world country. Turned out the country in question had currency controls - they paid them but then told them the money couldn't leave the country. The megacorp purchased local handwoven rugs and then sold them in the US/Europe to attempt to recapture their money. They keep the rug as a reminder that rule of law in international countries doesn't always measure up to how we conduct business in the states.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Thats the idea!
My current goal/plan is to collect 1 million over 10-15 years, put it in a high interest bank (6-8%) in a low COL country, and retire off the 60k a year I get, and if interest rates drop, theres always the million dollars to help me back up

Or you can be a podiatrist and max out your Roth, 401k's, HSA, decide to live off 100-115k and put the rest in a vanguard index fund. You max out your retirement accounts, while also living on a good yearly salary. You could eventually retire earlier than 65.

Its a lot harder to collect 1 million in a career thats always changing, continually hiring new grads because of the lower cost, and living in a high cost of living city, than it is to be a podiatrist

 

[IDontHaveAnyFeet]

Or you can be a podiatrist and max out your Roth, 401k's, HSA, decide to live off 100-115k and put the rest in a vanguard index fund. You max out your retirement accounts, while also living on a good yearly salary. You could eventually retire earlier than 65.

Its a lot harder to collect 1 million in a career thats always changing, continually hiring new grads because of the lower cost, and living in a high cost of living city, than it is to be a podiatrist

Or you could make 200-300 k doing what im doing , max out literally everything including roth ira (i currently have 130k sitting in there), 401ks, laugh at the podiatrist who has 300 k in debt to pay off on that 100 k salary (300 k will pay your rent in silicon valley for 10-15 years) and save more than a million while the podiatrist is still trying to make ends meet.

Its pretty easy to collect 1 million when you dont have to wait through 7 years of school tuition debt and can be earning above 200 k in your first year and are capable of doing simple math (which you are unable to do)

 

[ldsrmdude]

Let’s keep things civil and avoid name-calling. Feel free to discuss the pros and cons of being a podiatrist but keep the discussion on the topic, not each other. Thanks

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Or you could make 200-300 k doing what im doing , max out literally everything including roth ira (i currently have 130k sitting in there), 401ks, laugh at the podiatrist who has 300 k in debt to pay off on that 100 k salary (300 k will pay your rent in silicon valley for 10-15 years) and save more than a million while the podiatrist is still trying to make ends meet.

Its pretty easy to collect 1 million when you dont have to wait through 7 years of school tuition debt and can be earning above 200 k in your first year and are capable of doing simple math (which you are unable to do)

How do you invest in a roth IRA while making 200-300k..? My guess is youre going to quickly google how to do that. SO yeah, BS radar is going off over here. No one believes you make 200-300k. If you were you wouldn't spend all your time on these forums, since you'd be "so busy living the dream."