Buying a practice

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lomaric

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I am currently a third-year resident, and have been thinking about the idea of buying a practice. I have seen prices range all over the place, from someone selling their practice with no equipment, to someone wanting to pay for the past seven years of patients they have seen.

Can someone give me an idea of what you should pay for a practice that has done it?

What should you pay for?

Should you pay A percentage of their gross income?

What should you pay for patients?

Any information would be great if somebody has done this journey. Also any recommendations of what should be asked, when thinking about buying a practice

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Charts aren’t worth much anymore. I wouldn’t pay a significant amount of money for them. Patients are free to see whoever they like now a days and typically don’t require a referral. At least not the plans you would like to be contracted with. Not to mention, a podiatry office isn’t a dental office or a family practice office where patients have regular, recurring appointments (for the most part). A chart for someone who googled the practice because they had an ingrown 3 years ago is almost worthless. Don’t forget that you are buying the EMR in which these charts are stored and if you don’t like it and decide to switch, that will cost you additional money after you purchase the practice. The charts that this old podiatrist feels have value, could end up costing you thousands of $ in data transfer costs. If you started out on your own you can obviously choose your EMR from day 1.

The previous practice has likely built up some sort of “name” and “goodwill” in the area with referring doctors and some community members, but you will still have to market yourself to those individuals so that they continue their current patterns. It would hopefully be less work than if you started up on your own, but not necessarily a big difference. So there can be value there as well, just not as much as most retiring podiatrists think there is

Assets have an easier to determine value. Chairs, computers, instruments, supplies, etc. are what I would be most willing to pay for assuming it’s equipment you feel you would use.

Accounts Receivable are usually part of the purchase price as well, since the new owner typically will ask for that money IF it comes in after the purchase is complete. The problem with AR is that some % of it is never going to come in. Unfortunately it can be a pretty large % that never gets paid by the patients. You can probably get an idea of how much that is worth by looking at previous months and years accounting records.

In the end, I think the question comes down to, how much will buying this practice cost me vs. starting my own? Keeping in mind that even after buying a practice there may be immediate expenses due to changes you want to or need to make to the practice. I haven’t heard of a purchase or buy in that makes a whole lot of financial sense. Meaning docs are asking for a $ amount that ends up being around 100% of gross revenue. So $500k-$700k purchase price when you could open up your own practice for half of that, at most. Is the potential immediate income stream that can come with an established practice worth an extra $250-500k in debt? I posted the story elsewhere, but someone paid around $600k for 25% ownership in a practice they worked at (so a buy in and not outright purchase/ownership) and within 6 months the two majority owners came under investigation for insurance fraud from compounding pharmacy kick backs. Congrats on buying into that...

If/when you’ve actually found a practice in a location that you are interested in, I would reach out to someone like Mike Crosby. He does valuations and helps with the selling of podiatry practices for a living. He typically has a good idea of what individuals and investment groups are paying for practices across the country. There is no easy number that anyone can give you which would apply to a broad group of practices, in terms of reasonable purchase price. Way too many variables.
 
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had a friend buy one and maybe spent 5 or 10k for business valuation. included real estate and some other stuff. said would do it all over again. can get name of company if you want. screw what a retiring pod thinks its worth.
 
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A few random thoughts

-Will the purchase include the building. If it doesn't - the pod you bought from may become your landlord. Move? If you believe goodwill or whatnot has value - how much value can you maintain if you leave the current location. There may be some interesting considerations of how the owner paid themself/their own company for rent and how that would impact you.

-If you get their employees - you may very quickly need to fire all of them. A friend of mine bought a dental practice - I don't think the former employees lasted even a month.

-I only talked values with 1 person, and like dtrack said - they wanted like 85-90% of the prior years collections (or maybe they offered an average of 3 and the 3 had the same value). The person I spoke to had some sort of consultant who wanted to assure me what a great deal it would be. How I would be able to pay the note out of ongoing collections from the practice. How they'd setup many deals and this one was extra special. There may be honest brokers out there, but there also may be shills out there who want to live in some sort of high evaluation world that they get a cut of.

-Paying for old EHRs and such is real. For some reason my practice maintains a separate server for an old EHR - which means we pay some data security company to maintain it.

-Wherever you go you may have to put up with ridiculous requests from prior patients. This will probably be more if you directly pick up these patients while buying the practice. ie. people who shouldn't qualify being seen forever as 99212s or special deals like diabetics who won't see their PCP getting near free visits. People wanting to be padded up and oiled down and nailgrinded and what not.

-I went to Podiatry Present's conference awhile back. Its absolute and total turd. If it wasn't sponsored by Epifix it would probably be sponsored by a company that makes nail grinding vacuums. Anyway, they brought in a couple who are married podiatrists who started their own practice. They talked about their hustle/work getting the practice started. If I remember correctly though - they thought they were buying cash flow / a patient base etc and ... it didn't manifest. Like no one showed up. They had to build it from scratch. That's obviously just 1 anecdote, but any money you pay for charts may be an overpayment.

-Perks? Perhaps they can somehow get you on local insurance plans that would otherwise be closed or perhaps they already have better negotiated rates. I'm reading here.
 
In the process right now. Highly recommend Mike Crosby. He was a referral from a friend, ended up meeting a couple guys at an ACFAS conference who used him as well.

Would really love to hear your experiences / wisdom on the process when you're settled! Best of luck :)
 
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Thank you all for your information. The main reason for buying is, is that the owner will carry the loan, and I don't have enough to start one. I have about 40K saved, but I assume it will take more to total start fresh. the current practice is doing mainly routine care, and no surgery. He is seeing 15-20 people a day has been around for 20 years. it is in a big city, and I hope their is room to expand and grow it.


Do you all recommend going through someone like Mike Crosby? There is alot of part to a practice, and I want to make sure I am doing what is best. I know they charge about 8K
 
Thank you all for your information. The main reason for buying is, is that the owner will carry the loan, and I don't have enough to start one. I have about 40K saved, but I assume it will take more to total start fresh. the current practice is doing mainly routine care, and no surgery. He is seeing 15-20 people a day has been around for 20 years. it is in a big city, and I hope their is room to expand and grow it.


Do you all recommend going through someone like Mike Crosby? There is alot of part to a practice, and I want to make sure I am doing what is best. I know they charge about 8K


It seems like you have the hook up and hard part all figured out .. why waste your money? save it dont get ripped off... at this point valuation matters and you dont want to over pay ... based on what you provided with pt count practice should be making 350 to 400k ( i dont know the payer mix/ins plans, but give or take) .... analyze YOUR overhead to see if it makes sense for you and figure out HIS net and come back with a counter offer based on that .... that should be a fair deal for both parties
 
Wrong. Pay someone who knows what they are doing. 8k is nothing compared to the value they could bring. Don't trust any pod. Now is not the time to do it yourself and be cheap.
 
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Wrong. Pay someone who knows what they are doing. I have heard about someone named Hultman? In California. 8k is nothing compared to the value they could bring. Don't trust any pod. Now is not the time to do it yourself and be cheap.

Having done both ways ( from scratch and multiple acquisitions) at this point now ... please tell me what these people have to offer you ? besides take your money for BS .... i guess if you are completely clueless then it makes sense but then again if thats the case this may not be for you
 
Godfather is correct about the gross. The owner told be me is grossing 400k, and taking home about 170k. He is asking 300k (rents the building). He is wanting some cash and he will carry and he will stay on for 6 months if needed to help.

While not a lot of new equipment (3 chairs, old xrays, traknet EMR). I wasn’t sure if working with someone will help or not.
 
Godfather is correct about the gross. The owner told be me is grossing 400k, and taking home about 170k. He is asking 300k (rents the building). He is wanting some cash and he will carry and he will stay on for 6 months if needed to help.

While not a lot of new equipment (3 chairs, old xrays, traknet EMR). I wasn’t sure if working with someone will help or not.


He's only grossing 400k. Are you sure this is a viable business? This should be a purchase price in the 100's - Not 300.
 
Having done both ways ( from scratch and multiple acquisitions) at this point now ... please tell me what these people have to offer you ? besides take your money for BS .... i guess if you are completely clueless then it makes sense but then again if thats the case this may not be for you

Well worth the money. They are your advocate and know the market and what previous practices have gone for. Mike Crosby was worth every cent.
 
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The person you mentioned is a podiatrist.

I can't say anymore due to a previous deal that fell through, but I would highly recommend someone experienced in buying and selling practices that is not a podiatrist.
Did not know that. Just heard the name recently recommended. Good to know. Agree you want a professional not a pod
 
Having done both ways ( from scratch and multiple acquisitions) at this point now ... please tell me what these people have to offer you ? besides take your money for BS .... i guess if you are completely clueless then it makes sense but then again if thats the case this may not be for you
I think you now have some experience and this a different perspective than this person. Good for you, but especially for someone just graduating, they need help.
 
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Godfather is correct about the gross. The owner told be me is grossing 400k, and taking home about 170k. He is asking 300k (rents the building). He is wanting some cash and he will carry and he will stay on for 6 months if needed to help.

While not a lot of new equipment (3 chairs, old xrays, traknet EMR). I wasn’t sure if working with someone will help or not.

Run, don't walk, away.
 
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Godfather is correct about the gross. The owner told be me is grossing 400k, and taking home about 170k. He is asking 300k (rents the building). He is wanting some cash and he will carry and he will stay on for 6 months if needed to help.

While not a lot of new equipment (3 chairs, old xrays, traknet EMR). I wasn’t sure if working with someone will help or not.


Hey man ... like i said i could just tell the gross by what you mentioned ... based on more info you have just provided .. this is a bad deal going your way ... if there is growth potential and the overhead is low along with reliable decent employees that are willing to stay and carry over i wouldnt spend more than 120k ( max, an extra 20K is thrown in there for him carrying some money also) ...

Can someone please tell me how someone like mike crosby will help in a situation like this ???!!
 
Hey man ... like i said i could just tell the gross by what you mentioned ... based on more info you have just provided .. this is a bad deal going your way ... if there is growth potential and the overhead is low along with reliable decent employees that are willing to stay and carry over i wouldnt spend more than 120k ( max, an extra 20K is thrown in there for him carrying some money also) ...

Can someone please tell me how someone like mike crosby will help in a situation like this ???!!

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just open up right next to him. Lease. Buy 3 brand new nice chairs, modern X-ray, and an EMR that isn’t awful. Put the rest of the money into aggressive advertising.
 
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I understand everyone’s thoughts and have to trust what you all say and walk away or just offer him a very low offer of what he thinks it’s worth. I have just started digging into the idea of private practice and I was hoping that I could find a good deal, and take over the patients so I had least had some start. I also have been told that it’s hard to get on the insurance panels, and assumed that buying out someone this could help. I need to dig into everything more and see how I can make it work with what I got.
 
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just open up right next to him. Lease. Buy 3 brand new nice chairs, modern X-ray, and an EMR that isn’t awful. Put the rest of the money into aggressive advertising.

SAVAGE!!


I also have been told that it’s hard to get on the insurance panels, and assumed that buying out someone this could help. I need to dig into everything more and see how I can make it work with what I got.

Dont advise this as you would have to buy the tax ID ( you will have to assume future problems tied yo this tax ID ) of the guy/gal selling and use that to get on plans ... you need to do an ASSET purchase ( just saved you alot of attorney money btw by that little tidbit) make the majority of the pruchase then divided upon goodwill and very minimal equip. to "decrease" state taxes on your purchase tie all that into a new corp with a new tax ID and apply to insurance panels with that new company that is now linked to your npi
 
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Screenshot_20200801-183847_Gmail.jpg


Can't wait to see final results of this one...
 
Can't wait to see final results of this one...

Applying to an associate job posted on PMNews:
"85k base, 30% collections if you collect more than 230k. And yes, we don't call it collections. It's a year-end bonus. I will put that in the contract."

Calling the same place to buy the practice:
"I have a million dollar practice. It's very profitable. You will have n^2 number of patients, great MAs, and a very competent office manager who happens to be my ***. You will get your numbers for boards in less than n years."
 
Practice I was looking at purchasing wanted more than 3.5x their net income. We walked, I'm looking into opening my own place for a fraction of the cost (and not working for free for 3-4 years).

Are you using a management service or doing everything on your own?
 
I would not hire a company to do everything related to setting up and running your business. You’ll subcontract out plenty of the work, but you should still be the project manager/general contractor, so to speak.
 
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Something like this:Practice Start-Up Services | Step-by-Step Start-Up Checklist | PPS

Looks like they take care of running the business essentially and you show up to your practice and just focus on the doctor aspect. I’m guessing they take a percentage cut of your collections. Does anyone think it’s worth it for somebody just starting a practice?


This is sounding real good to me right about now. Just the aspect of credentialing and insurance contract negotiating. How much does this run?

Honestly the biggest hurdle we are looking at is getting the corporation under insurance contracts and then our NPIs under the corporation. Anyone know of any services that do this?
 
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This is sounding real good to me right about now. Just the aspect of credentialing and insurance contract negotiating. How much does this run?

Honestly the biggest hurdle we are looking at is getting the corporation under insurance contracts and then our NPIs under the corporation. Anyone know of any services that do this?

any legitimate billing company can take care of this stuff for you .. i would def recommend to farm this out
 
From when I first posted this to now, I have settled on a practice that was priced to sell 100k in the NE and current owner is seeing 25 patients a day. The owner is going to stay on and transition for several months. I did end up getting some help, and was stated that this practice was a fair price. My only concern is the high lease $6-7k monthly, but the business is making money.

My next question is what do people recommend for contracts? The current owner is willing to do whatever I want. Is Going though attorney the best way? What is everyone’s advice and regrets that have been in this stages. Sorry this is all new and I’m starting to dive in the rabbit hole and it’s deep
 
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You will need an attorney to go through the final sales contract. Don't take anyones word for what they say. The contract is binding once it is signed so you want an attorney to thoroughly comb through the contract and let you know what you are signing. If you are buying the EIN and practice NPI then you are responsible for any thing that happens years later with that EIN or NPI after the doctor is long gone. That should be negotiated in the contract. This is just a few from the top of my head however lots of things to look out for before signing the final sales contract so that is why you need an attorney.

The lease of $6-7K monthly, who owns the building? if it is owned by the retiring doctor so the question to ask is if the lease is at fair market value. Buying a practice, just like any business, you want to keep your overhead as low as possible and one of the biggest cost for overhead is rent and payroll. If the retiring doctor owns the building then you should try to buy the building also.

Also the current staff, do you know how much they are being paid? Is any of the retiring doctors family member working in the office. if you are buying the practice, then you need to know how much all the staff are being paid. There are many things to look out for when buying a practice

$100K sale price for a practice seeing 25 patients per day is a good deal. Almost too good to be true. Such practice will be bringing in easily over $700K in collections. So why is he selling for a cheap price? That is why you need an attorney to make make sure everything checks out.

Lastly, get a good CPA.
 
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White Coat investor has some recommended/paid advertisement contract review services. They might be worth looking into, even if they mostly do employment contracts.
Contract Review and Negotiation

I haven't used any of the services on the above, so there isn't one I can recommend.
 
Godfather is correct about the gross. The owner told be me is grossing 400k, and taking home about 170k. He is asking 300k (rents the building). He is wanting some cash and he will carry and he will stay on for 6 months if needed to help.

While not a lot of new equipment (3 chairs, old xrays, traknet EMR). I wasn’t sure if working with someone will help or not.
Offer him $200 if gross collections are truly $400
 
You will need an attorney to go through the final sales contract. Don't take anyones word for what they say. The contract is binding once it is signed so you want an attorney to thoroughly comb through the contract and let you know what you are signing. If you are buying the EIN and practice NPI then you are responsible for any thing that happens years later with that EIN or NPI after the doctor is long gone. That should be negotiated in the contract. This is just a few from the top of my head however lots of things to look out for before signing the final sales contract so that is why you need an attorney.

The lease of $6-7K monthly, who owns the building? if it is owned by the retiring doctor so the question to ask is if the lease is at fair market value. Buying a practice, just like any business, you want to keep your overhead as low as possible and one of the biggest cost for overhead is rent and payroll. If the retiring doctor owns the building then you should try to buy the building also.

Also the current staff, do you know how much they are being paid? Is any of the retiring doctors family member working in the office. if you are buying the practice, then you need to know how much all the staff are being paid. There are many things to look out for when buying a practice

$100K sale price for a practice seeing 25 patients per day is a good deal. Almost too good to be true. Such practice will be bringing in easily over $700K in collections. So why is he selling for a cheap price? That is why you need an attorney to make make sure everything checks out.

Lastly, get a good CPA.
Sounds too good to be true
 
Resurrecting old threads on Easter Sunday
 
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I am currently a third-year resident, and have been thinking about the idea of buying a practice. I have seen prices range all over the place, from someone selling their practice with no equipment, to someone wanting to pay for the past seven years of patients they have seen.

Can someone give me an idea of what you should pay for a practice that has done it?

What should you pay for?

Should you pay A percentage of their gross income?

What should you pay for patients?

Any information would be great if somebody has done this journey. Also any recommendations of what should be asked, when thinking about buying a practice
50% of gross income is a good starting point.
In today’s market an established, fully equipped practice is worth about 50-75% of gross revenue in most cases.
 
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50% of gross income is a good starting point.
In today’s market an established, fully equipped practice is worth about 50-75% of gross revenue in most cases.
It sounds like something somebody who's trying to sell their own practice would say....🤔
 
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