Avoiding the same fate as emergency medicine

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Brules_Rules

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I’m sure many of you are probably aware of the **** show that emergency medicine has devolved into over the past decade, with the ACEP meeting on the EM workforce today indicating that there will be an estimated surplus of 9000 EM docs by 2030. This is of course attributed to a mixture of CMG takeovers, residency expansion, and increased reliance upon mid level providers. As recently as 2 or 3 years ago many people in emergency medicine continued to insist that the future was bright and that these employment concerns were massively overblown. At this point there is essentially irrefutable data showing that their field will suffer throughout the next decade. Clearly, a number of factors that made emergency medicine vulnerable to these changes are also present in anesthesiology. While I hope that the actions of those in EM leadership positions to mitigate this issue can be used as groundwork for what we will need to do in anesthesia to avoid the same fate, I was curious if anyone felt there were any changes that could be advocated for now in order to avoid a similar outcome.

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I see a similar situation brewing in anesthesia due to the "ACT model" requiring fewer attendings plus the "solo CRNA" in rural areas. The field will become saturated and salaries are already lower in my opinion for many employed positions.

I do hope that the "bean counters" see the wisdom in hiring Board Certified Anesthesiologist to sit their own cases for $250K vs paying a CRNA $200k.
I see salaries settling in around the $300K range in 5 years once all the new programs are at full speed. Again, this isn't EM as there are 45,000 crnas out there doing a very easy job for $190,000-$205,000 plus benefits. So, a logical outcome is that new attendings without fellowships assume the stool sitting role and take call to boot.

Even I admit the situation in Anesthesiology doesn't seem as dire as EM provided the business people see the merit in hiring MDs over the 40 hour per week regimented CRNA.
 
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I have a hard time fathoming how this is even real. But I’m sure it is. I am so saddened by the state of healthcare in America. Its actually not about healthcare. It’s about money once and for all. No wonder physicians are all burnt out. It’s all about money and efficiency and how can we spread as thin as possible. **ck hospitals and their greed. It’s infuriating
 
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Lets not pretend the last generation of physicians didn’t enable this by selling their practices to private equity instead of other physicians so they could make extra money and ensure a consolidating oligopoly of oppression for the doctors that followed them. Maybe when a noctor delivers their oncology plan or anesthetic or primary care by following the envision approved algorithm they’ll realize the costs but probably not.
 
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Anesthesiology will be down the same if not worse path as EM. If hospitals are willing to staff just NPs in the ER then the writing would be on the wall for EM. CRNAs only staffing is a death blow to anesthesiology IMO.

But I see most of medicine going down this path. Healthcare cost is unsustainable. Something has to be cut and physician salary is the low hanging fruit. All it takes is one hospital to prove that you don't need EM docs, Anesthesiologist, Hospitalist, Radiologists.

Just takes one
 
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I was patrolling the USAjobs site for VA anesthesiology positions before the CRNA ruling and there were roughly 7-8 openings (the average number of openings for specialists on that site). A couple of months after the ruling there were only 3 positions. Checking now and there is a significant jump to 11 openings for anesthesiologists, in decent areas of the country too. I think for some reason or another, the VA is still finding use for anesthesiologists even though CRNAs are allowed to practice independently. As long as we don’t let the HCA keep opening random anesthesiology residencies like they did with EM, I think we can preserve the field.
 
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When my buddy was doing his EM residency in LA, most of his co-residents were working on screenplays anyway;)
 
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I’m sure many of you are probably aware of the **** show that emergency medicine has devolved into over the past decade, with the ACEP meeting on the EM workforce today indicating that there will be an estimated surplus of 9000 EM docs by 2030. This is of course attributed to a mixture of CMG takeovers, residency expansion, and increased reliance upon mid level providers. As recently as 2 or 3 years ago many people in emergency medicine continued to insist that the future was bright and that these employment concerns were massively overblown. At this point there is essentially irrefutable data showing that their field will suffer throughout the next decade. Clearly, a number of factors that made emergency medicine vulnerable to these changes are also present in anesthesiology. While I hope that the actions of those in EM leadership positions to mitigate this issue can be used as groundwork for what we will need to do in anesthesia to avoid the same fate, I was curious if anyone felt there were any changes that could be advocated for now in order to avoid a similar outcome.

Healthcare needs of the boomers are massive. IMO the demand for healthcare is increasing, NOT stagnant.

It's not easy for even our group to find good staff, and we are in a very desireable location 1hr outside of NYC.

I can tell you from first hand experience, finding good Anesthesiologists, CRNAs, Surgical Techs, Peri-op RNs can be very difficult.

The move towards midlevels is absolutely about saving money by evil nonclinical suits - to some degree.

But to be completely honest, it is also about just meeting the wave of demand of the needs of the people - to some degree.

We have many people who argue on this board to "just go MD only" or you are a sell-out.

Mostly thats from people in less populated areas that have enough density of MDs to take care of business.

I would LOVE to go MD only, as I'm sure most ERs would.

CRNAs DONT save a TON of money. They save some, but not a ton. And not worth the headaches/risks/lack of quality.

At the same time, I can not imagine having an MD in every room on every anesthetic. Where are these people going to come from?

CRNAs are gaining ground because they are what's around and they are what's available to a small podunk hospital in rural wisconsin.

They are around and what's available for the plastic surgeons office. For the dentists office.

IMO, at least in my area, we could not physically go MD only even if we wanted to, we just dont have the numbers of MDs to meet the surgical demand.

We barely have enough numbers of MDs to meet the demands WITH crnas in place.
 
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Healthcare needs of the boomers are massive. IMO the demand for healthcare is increasing, NOT stagnant.



At the same time, I can not imagine having an MD in every room on every anesthetic. Where are these people going to come from?

Demand for anesthesia care has skyrocketed in the last 10 years. Boomers getting older and needing more healthcare combined with even more invasive things being done outside the OR (cath labs, GI, etc). I don't see that trend stopping any time soon.

And as you note, there are not enough anesthesiologists to take care of all those patients in a physician only model (in respect to our DO colleagues I cannot call it MD only). Would probably need 2-3x the amount of graduating residents each year for 10+ years to come close.
 
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We barely have enough numbers of MDs to meet the demands WITH crnas in place.
Is it because your group chose to keep it as thin as possible to maximize margin or does your group have trouble recruiting due to location/pay/etc.?
 
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Healthcare needs of the boomers are massive. IMO the demand for healthcare is increasing, NOT stagnant.

It's not easy for even our group to find good staff, and we are in a very desireable location 1hr outside of NYC.

I can tell you from first hand experience, finding good Anesthesiologists, CRNAs, Surgical Techs, Peri-op RNs can be very difficult.

The move towards midlevels is absolutely about saving money by evil nonclinical suits - to some degree.

But to be completely honest, it is also about just meeting the wave of demand of the needs of the people - to some degree.

We have many people who argue on this board to "just go MD only" or you are a sell-out.

Mostly thats from people in less populated areas that have enough density of MDs to take care of business.

I would LOVE to go MD only, as I'm sure most ERs would.

CRNAs DONT save a TON of money. They save some, but not a ton. And not worth the headaches/risks/lack of quality.

At the same time, I can not imagine having an MD in every room on every anesthetic. Where are these people going to come from?

CRNAs are gaining ground because they are what's around and they are what's available to a small podunk hospital in rural wisconsin.

They are around and what's available for the plastic surgeons office. For the dentists office.

IMO, at least in my area, we could not physically go MD only even if we wanted to, we just dont have the numbers of MDs to meet the surgical demand.

We barely have enough numbers of MDs to meet the demands WITH crnas in place.

People here are responding to a hospital that fired anesthesiologists with a plan to go CRNA only. With emphatic CEO and private equity support. A natural inclination, since in fact CRNAs don't save a lot of money with high salaries and high demands, is for people here to say move MD only. Lest we forget, CRNAs make more than most primary care physicians. This hospital, wayyyy out in the sticks of being 45 minutes from two major cities (and two very well respected training programs where they likely could fairly comfortably recruit more anesthesiologists for decades to come) had enough anesthesiologists to maintain what the ASA has embraced, and what we've come to accept, as a safe and stable 3:1 or 4:1 supervision model. They moved to a fireman model, keeping 1 anesthesiologist around largely as a puppet.

Yes, you're right, there aren't enough MDs. But let's assume your group actually wanted to move MD only. In 10 years, if you actually wanted to, my guess is you could at least staff 50% of your rooms with physicians if you wanted to. But your pay would be cut. And your culture would change. And your CRNAs wouldn't understand and would likely leave in protest. Because at the root of it all, CRNAs (because of the AANA...) and MDs see the anesthesia world in almost entirely opposing views. Your hospital may not even support it as they wouldn't be billing for a CRNA in those rooms where you placed MDs, because as we've already established CRNAs are expensive.

Or maybe you try to hire more MDs, and fail. But assuredly you won't try. You'll maintain the model you have, as long as you possibly can, because it's worked for you in the past and it's working for you right now. Also, I'm not criticizing you directly. I hope you realize that. You can extrapolate your group to every group who supervises CRNAs or AAs across the country. You can include academic departments.

The ASA has embraced supervision, because they have no other choice really, and it's the commonly accepted model. It also, interestingly enough, makes it very easy for hospitals to replace anesthesiologists. You simply remove them from the equation. After all, the anesthesiologist is the only one in that completely screwed up equation that sees the value they bring to the table. The CRNA doesn't. Read the words of the CEO in the article. He surely doesn't. Private equity? Not a chance. You're out the second they're able to replace you. They don't even need to recruit more staff to stool sit those rooms. They already have all those CRNAs.

Why will primary care survive, and perhaps even thrive, in a US that's becoming completely flooded with lackluster midlevel care? Because those physicians see their own patients. They don't supervise 4 PAs/NPs all day, every day. The setup doesn't allow them to be removed so easily. Also, patients will call, and oftentimes, wait to see THEIR doctor. The physician, not the doctor nurse. The patients are awake, and aware enough to see a difference, and request MD level care. Our patients are asleep, anesthesia is safe and it's easy to cover up small mistakes here and there that may not affect mortality, though no one will really look that hard anyway because medicine realizes that study is so stupid and unfair that it won't ever be rightly conducted.

Again, no criticism direced at you. I'm just hating the game, playa.
 
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I was patrolling the USAjobs site for VA anesthesiology positions before the CRNA ruling and there were roughly 7-8 openings (the average number of openings for specialists on that site). A couple of months after the ruling there were only 3 positions. Checking now and there is a significant jump to 11 openings for anesthesiologists, in decent areas of the country too. I think for some reason or another, the VA is still finding use for anesthesiologists even though CRNAs are allowed to practice independently. As long as we don’t let the HCA keep opening random anesthesiology residencies like they did with EM, I think we can preserve the field.
The VA hospitals are very frequently affiliated with medical schools, this is why many VA hospitals cannot get rid of physicians since they want to maintain their university affiliations and the supply of residents and fellows. On the other hand the smaller non university affiliated VA hospitals will be more inclined to go the all CRNA/ NP route.
 
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Healthcare needs of the boomers are massive. IMO the demand for healthcare is increasing, NOT stagnant.

It's not easy for even our group to find good staff, and we are in a very desireable location 1hr outside of NYC.

I can tell you from first hand experience, finding good Anesthesiologists, CRNAs, Surgical Techs, Peri-op RNs can be very difficult.

The move towards midlevels is absolutely about saving money by evil nonclinical suits - to some degree.

But to be completely honest, it is also about just meeting the wave of demand of the needs of the people - to some degree.

We have many people who argue on this board to "just go MD only" or you are a sell-out.

Mostly thats from people in less populated areas that have enough density of MDs to take care of business.

I would LOVE to go MD only, as I'm sure most ERs would.

CRNAs DONT save a TON of money. They save some, but not a ton. And not worth the headaches/risks/lack of quality.

At the same time, I can not imagine having an MD in every room on every anesthetic. Where are these people going to come from?

CRNAs are gaining ground because they are what's around and they are what's available to a small podunk hospital in rural wisconsin.

They are around and what's available for the plastic surgeons office. For the dentists office.

IMO, at least in my area, we could not physically go MD only even if we wanted to, we just dont have the numbers of MDs to meet the surgical demand.

We barely have enough numbers of MDs to meet the demands WITH crnas in place.

Are you having trouble recruiting because physicians dont want to join, or because your salary isnt up to par? By upto par, I mean atleast close to what the AMCs are offering (NAPA is offering 500K + 50K sign on).
 
Are you having trouble recruiting because physicians dont want to join, or because your salary isnt up to par? By upto par, I mean atleast close to what the AMCs are offering (NAPA is offering 500K + 50K sign on).

I don’t know a thing about that job other than what you said. 500k + 50 sign on. But I can guarantee you that it’s like being offered a filet after you went for lunch at a sandwich shop, accepting the offer and after a few bites realizing it’s a turd sandwich and all that’ll follow are more turd sandwiches. For the rest of your working existence.
 
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EM is trying to be a rad onc. Opening a ****ty residency on every block because HCA and their ilk know that it's a very successful and easy tactic will torch any field. There is no know defense to this innovative tactic that I have heard of. Let that sink in.

It's particularly easy when many med students are so bizarre and stupid these days. They cry and clamor about opening new programs and say all kinds of dumb ****. These people actively want medicine to go down the toilet apparently. Combine that with boomers selling out the whole profession and you have a bad situation.

Anesthesiology has actually dealt with midlevels well IMO (could always be better). Private equity and consolidation are by far the biggest threats to the field. Expanding residency spots is a new threat and I wonder how leadership in the field will react to their own future colleagues being too stupid to understand that residency spots should not expand.

I don't have high hopes. It seems like anyone can get a residency approved for anything, especially if self-funded like many HCA spots, and just like EM, the ones asking for spots to open most are those students that will punished for their whole careers due to their naivety and stupidity. How can you combat that? Who actually approves residency spots? It sure doesn't seem like the specialty bodies ever actually deny any of them. This problem is a far reaching ramification of gross medical school expansion more than anything though. It allowed everyone to make excuses about a physician shortage (lol yeah...) And the students worried about matching are already in school and debt so they advocate for more residency spots.
 
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EM is trying to be a rad onc. Opening a ****ty residency on every block because HCA and their ilk know that it's a very successful and easy tactic will torch any field. There is no know defense to this innovative tactic that I have heard of. Let that sink in.

It's particularly easy when many med students are so bizarre and stupid these days. They cry and clamor about opening new programs and say all kinds of dumb ****. These people actively want medicine to go down the toilet apparently. Combine that with boomers selling out the whole profession and you have a bad situation.

Anesthesiology has actually dealt with midlevels well IMO (could always be better). Private equity and consolidation are by far the biggest threats to the field. Expanding residency spots is a new threat and I wonder how leadership in the field will react to their own future colleagues being too stupid to understand that residency spots should not expand.

I don't have high hopes. It seems like anyone can get a residency approved for anything, especially if self-funded like many HCA spots, and just like EM, the ones asking for spots to open most are those students that will punished for their whole careers due to their naivety and stupidity. How can you combat that? Who actually approves residency spots? It sure doesn't seem like the specialty bodies ever actually deny any of them.

Innovation likely also won’t put a dent in it. Residency spots need to be capped and that goes for many specialties.

“Are we so sure innovation will increase demand? A lot of the innovation has served to shorten and accelerate treatment, overall perhaps decreasing RT utilization (certainly fractions). What if the truth we arrive at by innovating is that society really does need less radonc?”

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I don’t know a thing about that job other than what you said. 500k + 50 sign on. But I can guarantee you that it’s like being offered a filet after you went for lunch at a sandwich shop, accepting the offer and after a few bites realizing it’s a turd sandwich and all that’ll follow are more turd sandwiches. For the rest of your working existence.
Isnt this what contracts are for? So you know your hours/calls/benefits/pay/overtime upfront? The 500K is supposed to be an increase from 400-450K for FY 2022. I doubt all the anesthesiologists working for NAPA will let NAPA screw them and shove a turd sandwich down their throats.
 
Isnt this what contracts are for? So you know your hours/calls/benefits/pay/overtime upfront? The 500K is supposed to be an increase from 400-450K for FY 2022. I doubt all the anesthesiologists working for NAPA will let NAPA screw them and shove a turd sandwich down their throats.
The days of PE and NAPA-esque practices are numbered. I know or one instance where they basically forced a staffing model with huge gaps on a hospital system and guess what....an emergency arose and there was a bad outcome. The hospital is on the hook and the liability could be huge. NAPA got the boot within weeks. Anyone with a brain could have seen the exposure but no one seemed to care or maybe the upper management didn’t seem to care.
 
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Is it because your group chose to keep it as thin as possible to maximize margin or does your group have trouble recruiting due to location/pay/etc.?

Our salaries have always been competitive and a better deal than AMCs.

Where I am, not too many good candidates come through and want to join our hospital (poor, traumas, busy) when there are so many others in the area.

Especially if you are looking for something specific like cardiac or pain.

There aren't that many candidates to begin with who stay around here after they train, and the ones that do can go wherever they want if they are good.

There are folks with known opiate addictions, sexual harassment issues who have been kicked out of multiple practices, they get hired somewhere else immediately...

My takeaway from my years looking at resumes and hiring is that outside of a few niche markets (nyc, boston, la, sf) there are lots of good options and lots of demand for the foreseeable future.
 
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People here are responding to a hospital that fired anesthesiologists with a plan to go CRNA only. With emphatic CEO and private equity support. A natural inclination, since in fact CRNAs don't save a lot of money with high salaries and high demands, is for people here to say move MD only. Lest we forget, CRNAs make more than most primary care physicians. This hospital, wayyyy out in the sticks of being 45 minutes from two major cities (and two very well respected training programs where they likely could fairly comfortably recruit more anesthesiologists for decades to come) had enough anesthesiologists to maintain what the ASA has embraced, and what we've come to accept, as a safe and stable 3:1 or 4:1 supervision model. They moved to a fireman model, keeping 1 anesthesiologist around largely as a puppet.

Yes, you're right, there aren't enough MDs. But let's assume your group actually wanted to move MD only. In 10 years, if you actually wanted to, my guess is you could at least staff 50% of your rooms with physicians if you wanted to. But your pay would be cut. And your culture would change. And your CRNAs wouldn't understand and would likely leave in protest. Because at the root of it all, CRNAs (because of the AANA...) and MDs see the anesthesia world in almost entirely opposing views. Your hospital may not even support it as they wouldn't be billing for a CRNA in those rooms where you placed MDs, because as we've already established CRNAs are expensive.

Or maybe you try to hire more MDs, and fail. But assuredly you won't try. You'll maintain the model you have, as long as you possibly can, because it's worked for you in the past and it's working for you right now. Also, I'm not criticizing you directly. I hope you realize that. You can extrapolate your group to every group who supervises CRNAs or AAs across the country. You can include academic departments.

The ASA has embraced supervision, because they have no other choice really, and it's the commonly accepted model. It also, interestingly enough, makes it very easy for hospitals to replace anesthesiologists. You simply remove them from the equation. After all, the anesthesiologist is the only one in that completely screwed up equation that sees the value they bring to the table. The CRNA doesn't. Read the words of the CEO in the article. He surely doesn't. Private equity? Not a chance. You're out the second they're able to replace you. They don't even need to recruit more staff to stool sit those rooms. They already have all those CRNAs.

Why will primary care survive, and perhaps even thrive, in a US that's becoming completely flooded with lackluster midlevel care? Because those physicians see their own patients. They don't supervise 4 PAs/NPs all day, every day. The setup doesn't allow them to be removed so easily. Also, patients will call, and oftentimes, wait to see THEIR doctor. The physician, not the doctor nurse. The patients are awake, and aware enough to see a difference, and request MD level care. Our patients are asleep, anesthesia is safe and it's easy to cover up small mistakes here and there that may not affect mortality, though no one will really look that hard anyway because medicine realizes that study is so stupid and unfair that it won't ever be rightly conducted.

Again, no criticism direced at you. I'm just hating the game, playa.

I hear you. But I don't think that the ACT model is going to lead to us being erased. We are in massive demand. Podunk hospitals are going to push the limits. I wouldnt call madison and milwaukee two "major" cities. Civilized areas will maintain the higher standard of healthcare we are used to - i hope.
 
The situation in EM is terrible, and companies like Envision that make their money by cutting staffing as much as possible and billing as much as possible are basically evil in my mind. I don't see anesthesia suffering the same fate though. On the supply side, we haven't had the explosion of spots that EM has had. On the demand side, it just keeps going up and I see no end in sight for that.

Also, I know not everyone loves the ACT, but it seems like it makes a lot of sense to me in many situations. Like others of said, we simply don't have the # of MDs/DOs necessary to be in every room. Plus, do we need a doc in every room all the time? Seems to me that for many elective cases on healthy people, having a proper ACT model where the attending is truly present and involved in the critical moments of the case is a great system. In some ways, it allows anesthesiologists to prove their value even more, because you can provide high quality care and value to multiple patients at once. "Supervision" where the docs are barely involved, that's a different question.

Also, I'm just a lowly M4 about to start residency, so what do I know.
 
Anesthesiology will be down the same if not worse path as EM. If hospitals are willing to staff just NPs in the ER then the writing would be on the wall for EM. CRNAs only staffing is a death blow to anesthesiology IMO.

I disagree. Look no further than California, an opt out state where you’ll find few successful ACT (or CRNA only) models and predominantly MD only practices.

The difference between EM and anesthesia here is that generally the break-even point for having a physician over a mid-level provider will be much higher for anesthesia. At a certain point it just becomes cheaper to have anesthesiologists do their own cases and make slightly less than they would supervising CRNAs, especially when you consider that many CRNAs don’t take call or work long hours. In EM on the other hand, I would guess that the break-even point is much lower.
 
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I disagree. Look no further than California, an opt out state where you’ll find few successful ACT (or CRNA only) models and predominantly MD only practices.

The difference between EM and anesthesia here is that generally the break-even point for having a physician over a mid-level provider will be much higher for anesthesia. At a certain point it just becomes cheaper to have anesthesiologists do their own cases and make slightly less than they would supervising CRNAs, especially when you consider that many CRNAs don’t take call or work long hours. In EM on the other hand, I would guess that the break-even point is much lower.

Ironically Envision/MAC is recruiting continuously for MD only positions in NorCal.

 
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Our salaries have always been competitive and a better deal than AMCs.

Where I am, not too many good candidates come through and want to join our hospital (poor, traumas, busy) when there are so many others in the area.

Especially if you are looking for something specific like cardiac or pain.

There aren't that many candidates to begin with who stay around here after they train, and the ones that do can go wherever they want if they are good.

There are folks with known opiate addictions, sexual harassment issues who have been kicked out of multiple practices, they get hired somewhere else immediately...

My takeaway from my years looking at resumes and hiring is that outside of a few niche markets (nyc, boston, la, sf) there are lots of good options and lots of demand for the foreseeable future.
So, again, is your group paying 50% MGMA or higher that 450-500k? Feel free to PM if you dont want to publicly post.
 
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Don't know much about the area, but it Seems pretty competitive for the Northern California area, no? Much better numbers than what were talked about in the Southern CA thread

They operate in areas with generally good payor mix and NorCal has always had higher rates than SoCal. Before their sale to Envision, MAC had very good contracts and also got heavy stipends from the hospitals. I assume they didn’t get worse after the sale. They offer even more for cardiac. You can hit those numbers in SoCal but you’d have to work very hard. OTOH, housing costs are at least 20% higher in NorCal.


 
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I disagree. Look no further than California, an opt out state where you’ll find few successful ACT (or CRNA only) models and predominantly MD only practices.

The difference between EM and anesthesia here is that generally the break-even point for having a physician over a mid-level provider will be much higher for anesthesia. At a certain point it just becomes cheaper to have anesthesiologists do their own cases and make slightly less than they would supervising CRNAs, especially when you consider that many CRNAs don’t take call or work long hours. In EM on the other hand, I would guess that the break-even point is much lower.

I understand the pay gap is much more narrow for Crna vs md. So when are Crna schools going to be mass opening? When this happens their pay will plummet and pay gap grows.

Regardless all medicine pay will drop. Cmgs know most new gen docs will work for 250k/yr.
 
So, again, is your group paying 50% MGMA or higher that 450-500k? Feel free to PM if you dont want to publicly post.

Yes in that range and partners make more.

I will also say that as the true partnership opportunities have decreased in the current market, and exploitative employment type positions have become more prevalent, the same is true with the candidates.

Everyone wants 450-500k immediately. 10+ weeks of vacation. Light call. No specialty training required. Post call days off. No noncompete. Massive sign on bonus.

I live an hour outside of NYC. You just cant compare my job offer to the podunk job offers - yet it happens all the time with modern candidates.

You want to live in Syracuse? Go ahead. Yes youll get 10 weeks of vacation and the same salary we are offering. Yes the call will be lighter. Maybe the benefits are better. The cost of living is better too. But you have to live there (nothing against syracuse just an example).. we are desperate but they are even more desperate the more rural you go..

If you are looking for a job to treat you well, show some commitment up front to a private group. Roll with the punches for a few years and become an owner. Most candidates are looking for no risk and all reward, and have subpar clinical skills in exchange for your best package.
 
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Yes in that range and partners make more.

I will also say that as the true partnership opportunities have decreased in the current market, and exploitative employment type positions have become more prevalent, the same is true with the candidates.

Everyone wants 450-500k immediately. 10+ weeks of vacation. Light call. No specialty training required. Post call days off. No noncompete. Massive sign on bonus.

I live an hour outside of NYC. You just cant compare my job offer to the podunk job offers - yet it happens all the time with modern candidates.

You want to live in Syracuse? Go ahead. Yes youll get 10 weeks of vacation and the same salary we are offering. Yes the call will be lighter. Maybe the benefits are better. The cost of living is better too. But you have to live there (nothing against syracuse just an example).. we are desperate but they are even more desperate the more rural you go..

If you are looking for a job to treat you well, show some commitment up front to a private group. Roll with the punches for a few years and become an owner. Most candidates are looking for no risk and all reward, and have subpar clinical skills in exchange for your best package.

An hour from nyc is podunk
 
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An hour from nyc is podunk

You’re probably still in Suffolk/Fairfield/Westchester/Bergen county. That’s like saying Orange County, Ca is podunk because it’s an hour outside of LA. They still have decent amenities, spousal job opportunities, and good schools.
 
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That’s already happened.
5-10 yrs ago EM had one of the most optimistic job outlook. Increased residency, MLP beginning to work in the ED, etc helped to create the difficult environment right now.

What really is hurting the field is Hospital Admins/CMGs started to realize that using MLPs for very basic stuff could be expanded to see level 3s then 4s, and likly 5's in the future. That on top of having a zillion NP schools opening up online with a very low barrier of entry has created an oversupply of NPs who are willing to do the job close to an RNs pay.

Economics and supply/demand will always prevail. EM is uniqe in that

#1 - There was an overwhelming tilt of low supply/high demand 10 yrs ago thus creating common 300+/hr rates
#2- Low barrier of entry. EM is 3 yrs which is the lowest medical entry
#3 - This was unsustainable and market movers will either go bankrupt or fix this supply/demand issues

Once any product has a supply/demand imbalance, the market will take over to correct this. This ALWAYS happen in EVERY product.

#1 - Start to hire NPs vs EM docs thus increasing provider supply
#2 - Increase EM residencies thus increasing supply
#3 - Increase NP schools thus increasing provider supply. The proliferation given online penetration is profound
#4 - Increase NP vs EM ratio thus increasing provider supply

The market will correct and create a new balance, where that will be is anyone's guess but like every product/market/job there will be a new balance.

Mark my words, all of the CMGs of anesthesiology is already working to create more profits. If CRNA schools ever create an online version, Anesthesiology will be screwed esp when hospitals figure out a CRNA making 150K is much cheaper than an anesthesiologist making 400K.
 
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5-10 yrs ago EM had one of the most optimistic job outlook. Increased residency, MLP beginning to work in the ED, etc helped to create the difficult environment right now.

What really is hurting the field is Hospital Admins/CMGs started to realize that using MLPs for very basic stuff could be expanded to see level 3s then 4s, and likly 5's in the future. That on top of having a zillion NP schools opening up online with a very low barrier of entry has created an oversupply of NPs who are willing to do the job close to an RNs pay.

Economics and supply/demand will always prevail. EM is uniqe in that

#1 - There was an overwhelming tilt of low supply/high demand 10 yrs ago thus creating common 300+/hr rates
#2- Low barrier of entry. EM is 3 yrs which is the lowest medical entry
#3 - This was unsustainable and market movers will either go bankrupt or fix this supply/demand issues

Once any product has a supply/demand imbalance, the market will take over to correct this. This ALWAYS happen in EVERY product.

#1 - Start to hire NPs vs EM docs thus increasing provider supply
#2 - Increase EM residencies thus increasing supply
#3 - Increase NP schools thus increasing provider supply. The proliferation given online penetration is profound
#4 - Increase NP vs EM ratio thus increasing provider supply

The market will correct and create a new balance, where that will be is anyone's guess but like every product/market/job there will be a new balance.

Mark my words, all of the CMGs of anesthesiology is already working to create more profits. If CRNA schools ever create an online version, Anesthesiology will be screwed esp when hospitals figure out a CRNA making 150K is much cheaper than an anesthesiologist making 400K.
The anesthesia market pre covid was the hottest it had been in over a decade. The market is already heating up again and I expect to see a robust market for years.

Anesthesia has been dealing with MLPs for decades and despite all the opt out laws ect, our job market has continued to improve (even in "opt out states").

ER completely screwed themselves with all these free standing ERs and unchecked residency expansion. All these free standing ER in my area (Texas metro) sucked up so many experienced ED Physicians, the community hospitals were forced to lean on MLPs to fill the gaps. My main hospital went from being all MD to almost all NP coverage in 3 years because they weren't able to find MDs.
 
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The anesthesia market pre covid was the hottest it had been in over a decade. The market is already heating up again and I expect to see a robust market for years.

Anesthesia has been dealing with MLPs for decades and despite all the opt out laws ect, our job market has continued to improve (even in "opt out states").

ER completely screwed themselves with all these free standing ERs and unchecked residency expansion. All these free standing ER in my area (Texas metro) sucked up so many experienced ED Physicians, the community hospitals were forced to lean on MLPs to fill the gaps. My main hospital went from being all MD to almost all NP coverage in 3 years because they weren't able to find MDs.
If the market is so hot then why are 90%+ of listed jobs employed and paying the same as what they were probably 10 years ago? Why is the phrase "sure, there are some partnership jobs but you have to be a rockstar who knows people" so common?

Out of a dozen or so anesthesia practices within 100 miles of me I think all of 3 may be private groups, and one of those is surely going to be absorbed by the hospital megagroup when their contract is up, and have their salaries reduced.
 
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If you are looking for a job to treat you well, show some commitment up front to a private group. Roll with the punches for a few years and become an owner. Most candidates are looking for no risk and all reward, and have subpar clinical skills in exchange for your best package.

Every year it seems it is harder to get new grads that want to join a partnership track, but if you want the best job in the long term that is really your only option. I understand that there is risk in doing that, but that is why the reward is potentially so high in the end.
 
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Every year it seems it is harder to get new grads that want to join a partnership track, but if you want the best job in the long term that is really your only option. I understand that there is risk in doing that, but that is why the reward is potentially so high in the end.
Having been through this on the radiology side, a lot of boomer dominated practices are just exploitative. Boomers will give you the whole back in my day speech, but neglect to leave out how times have changed and clinical demands actually are much higher for the partner track physicians versus when they did it.

And then like my practice, they fired 3 associates who were 6 months from partner to save money after they lost a contract from their attempts to sell the place to PE. It triggered a mass exodus of the remaining associates (myself included) and killed their deal.

Then you couple this distrust with the huge debt loads people are coming out of school with, and it’s no surprise people will chase the high paycheck because there’s no guarantee they will receive loyalty from the practice.
 
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Having been through this on the radiology side, a lot of boomer dominated practices are just exploitative. Boomers will give you the whole back in my day speech, but neglect to leave out how times have changed and clinical demands actually are much higher for the partner track physicians versus when they did it.

And then like my practice, they fired 3 associates who were 6 months from partner to save money after they lost a contract from their attempts to sell the place to PE. It triggered a mass exodus of the remaining associates (myself included) and killed their deal.

Then you couple this distrust with the huge debt loads people are coming out of school with, and it’s no surprise people will chase the high paycheck because there’s no guarantee they will receive loyalty from the practice.

like I said, there is risk. But there is also reward. You aren't going to ever get the high paycheck without taking the risk. Join a group that has not fired associates and has been open and honest with the partnership track because here's the thing, as a successful private group we aren't just going to hand you the keys to the castle without you putting in some time to earn it.

Find a great group that will reward your contributions over time.

I went out on that limb myself and it worked out better than imaginable for me in the long run. Worst that happens is you get burned and 2 or 3 years later you can take those lame AMC jobs that are always going to be there.
 
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I see a similar situation brewing in anesthesia due to the "ACT model" requiring fewer attendings plus the "solo CRNA" in rural areas. The field will become saturated and salaries are already lower in my opinion for many employed positions.

I do hope that the "bean counters" see the wisdom in hiring Board Certified Anesthesiologist to sit their own cases for $250K vs paying a CRNA $200k.
I see salaries settling in around the $300K range in 5 years once all the new programs are at full speed. Again, this isn't EM as there are 45,000 crnas out there doing a very easy job for $190,000-$205,000 plus benefits. So, a logical outcome is that new attendings without fellowships assume the stool sitting role and take call to boot.

Even I admit the situation in Anesthesiology doesn't seem as dire as EM provided the business people see the merit in hiring MDs over the 40 hour per week regimented CRNA.

Our group is ACT mostly but we do sit our own cases maybe 10-20% of the time, and increasingly so. There is a shortage of CRNA's and costs/CRNA keep going up. We are reaching that point where we are considering hiring docs instead of CRNA's moving forward, especially when we see agency CRNA prices heading towards $190/hour......

Frankly, I'm willing to make less for less headaches and better work satisfaction. I agree that salaries are likely to come down, but if they come down while sitting your own cases, then so be it. Salaries going down while running 4:1 is another story.
 
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Key differences that I think will prevent anesthesia from going the way of EM:
1) our midlevels have a much higher barrier for entry. CRNA school is much, much more difficult than NP school which will weed out lots of folks who don’t want to do the work. NP is a much easier path
2) our midlevels are much more expensive, in fact I would argue they’re pricing themselves out of the market to an extent for what they are (nurses)
3) anesthesia has more viable fellowship options that actually do separate the doctor from the midlevel
4) the residency is longer, and the residency requirement hoops are more difficult than EM to jump through, keeping sketchy programs at bay to an extent
5) demand for anesthesia services has only gone up, the breadth of what we are needed for is greater
6) anesthesia has another “customer” other than the hospital. The surgeons/proceduralists. At my hospital, they have single handedly kept CRNAs out. They want nothing to do with them. While I realize this isn’t the case everywhere it is in fact a “thing”. Surgeons who own their surgery centers overwhelmingly choose anesthesiologists to staff them in my neck of the woods.
What’s happening in EM is BS. I for one will always choose an ER with actual physicians if I am conscious and have a choice.
 
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like I said, there is risk. But there is also reward. You aren't going to ever get the high paycheck without taking the risk. Join a group that has not fired associates and has been open and honest with the partnership track because here's the thing, as a successful private group we aren't just going to hand you the keys to the castle without you putting in some time to earn it.

Find a great group that will reward your contributions over time.

I wonder if there is a way to codify partnership tracks this to remove the whims of baby boomers. People coming out now have been burned repeatedly by boomers throughout their lives, and after my own experience, even I am extremely hesitant to trust promises that aren’t written, and until this experience I was a huge advocate of private practice.

I thoroughly vetted my group as I’m from the area. What happened to us had never happened before. But it did because some toxic 58-63 yos decided to get one last retirement boost rather than retire like the 50 years of partners before them.

I’m not saying give me everything up front, but perhaps there should be a return to the buy in model rather than the sweat equity model. Or more structured metrics “if you do x this year, then we will reward with y”. I’m not sure how to fix it, but until all the boomers are out of the workforce, there’s going to be a lot of distrust.
 
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I wonder if there is a way to codify partnership tracks this to remove the whims of baby boomers. People coming out now have been burned repeatedly by boomers throughout their lives, and after my own experience, even I am extremely hesitant to trust promises that aren’t written, and until this experience I was a huge advocate of private practice.

I thoroughly vetted my group as I’m from the area. What happened to us had never happened before. But it did because some toxic 58-63 yos decided to get one last retirement boost rather than retire like the 50 years of partners before them.

I’m not saying give me everything up front, but perhaps there should be a return to the buy in model rather than the sweat equity model. Or more structured metrics “if you do x this year, then we will reward with y”. I’m not sure how to fix it, but until all the boomers are out of the workforce, there’s going to be a lot of distrust.
I’m sure there are ways to protect the group from private equity buyout but it always results in some lesser amount of money for the practice owners and people are all about the $$$$. It is sad because sales like this directly contribute and enable the spread of crap medicine (Locums, unsupervised mid levels) in the community that the practice serves and results in a degradation on of care. It doesn’t show any pride in a career of work and really conveys that it was only about money and that the community could burn to the ground for all they care as long as they get their money first.

I imagine most partners relocate after selling or opt to go to a different health system after sales like this which is telling.
 
I wonder if there is a way to codify partnership tracks this to remove the whims of baby boomers. People coming out now have been burned repeatedly by boomers throughout their lives, and after my own experience, even I am extremely hesitant to trust promises that aren’t written, and until this experience I was a huge advocate of private practice.

I thoroughly vetted my group as I’m from the area. What happened to us had never happened before. But it did because some toxic 58-63 yos decided to get one last retirement boost rather than retire like the 50 years of partners before them.

I’m not saying give me everything up front, but perhaps there should be a return to the buy in model rather than the sweat equity model. Or more structured metrics “if you do x this year, then we will reward with y”. I’m not sure how to fix it, but until all the boomers are out of the workforce, there’s going to be a lot of distrust.
 

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And then like my practice, they fired 3 associates who were 6 months from partner to save money after they lost a contract from their attempts to sell the place to PE. It triggered a mass exodus of the remaining associates (myself included) and killed their deal.

Then you couple this distrust with the huge debt loads people are coming out of school with, and it’s no surprise people will chase the high paycheck because there’s no guarantee they will receive loyalty from the practice.
100.
sorry you got burned by a crappy group. Some are worse than AMCs.
 
Our salaries have always been competitive and a better deal than AMCs.

Where I am, not too many good candidates come through and want to join our hospital (poor, traumas, busy) when there are so many others in the area.

Especially if you are looking for something specific like cardiac or pain.

There aren't that many candidates to begin with who stay around here after they train, and the ones that do can go wherever they want if they are good.

There are folks with known opiate addictions, sexual harassment issues who have been kicked out of multiple practices, they get hired somewhere else immediately...

My takeaway from my years looking at resumes and hiring is that outside of a few niche markets (nyc, boston, la, sf) there are lots of good options and lots of demand for the foreseeable future.
Do you advertise or do you just await for cold calls and connections?
 
I’m sure there are ways to protect the group from private equity buyout but it always results in some lesser amount of money for the practice owners and people are all about the $$$$. It is sad because sales like this directly contribute and enable the spread of crap medicine (Locums, unsupervised mid levels) in the community that the practice serves and results in a degradation on of care. It doesn’t show any pride in a career of work and really conveys that it was only about money and that the community could burn to the ground for all they care as long as they get their money first.

I imagine most partners relocate after selling or opt to go to a different health system after sales like this which is telling.
Come on. Not all of us who are locums practice crappy medicine. Some of us just like traveling and don’t like behind tied down for whatever reasons.
 
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Every year it seems it is harder to get new grads that want to join a partnership track, but if you want the best job in the long term that is really your only option. I understand that there is risk in doing that, but that is why the reward is potentially so high in the end.
I don’t know. I think people shy away from partnership tracks that are long. Like >2 years. Why do they need to be that long? You can’t figure out if someone is a
s hitty partner in 18 months?
 
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