Assistant Professor as Grad School Mentor - A Risk?

[therapist89]

Hi all,

How risky is it to join a doctoral program in psychology if your primary research mentor is an assistant professor? Mainly, I ask because one of the top faculty mentors I'm interested in joined her department in 2013, so she will go up for tenure pretty early on in my time as a doctoral student. I'm fearful of what will happen if she doesn't get tenure, because I imagine I'd either have to 1) move departments with her to a potentially "worse" place, 2) work with her remotely, which doesn't seem fun because I'll just be starting out, or 3) find a new mentor.

The thing is, I'm really into this mentor's research. But I find it hard to discern how likely it is she'll get tenure. She has a book, about ~15 pubs in good journals since starting at this program, external grants, her 3 grad students have published a lot, etc. I'm not sure how it would come across if I tried to ask people, even in subtle ways, about the chances of this professor getting tenure at interview weekend (badly, I imagine). Even at the pretty intense research-oriented program she's at, I can't imagine how much more she'd have to do to get tenure - but obviously it's not like I have experience evaluating people for tenure.

Any advice on this situation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bpsydme]

There are pro's and con's to working with junior faculty. In the best case scenario (assuming you are interested in research and publishing), you will get a ton of publications as that faculty is trying to publish in order to attain tenure. Also, more likely than not, you will be higher on the authorship list, especially if he/she doesn't have many postdocs and other students. In the worst case scenario, an obvious con as you've stated is if s/he leaves the institution. However, even if s/he doesn't get tenure, there may be other lines of funding that they can get in order to continue in the same line of research. Another more probable con is that they have not had (many) other prior students, so they may not have a solid mentoring style yet. S/he may be too hands-off or too hands-on as they're trying to figure out how best to work with grad students. Also, they may not know a lot about the details of the program, and so you may have to rely more on older students or other program faculty to reach milestones (e.g., applying for your own grants, proposing, etc.). I have seen incoming students get flustered about program logistics and details, like paying tuition or health insurance, but any reputable program will have many other faculty members and training directors you can come to for help.

With that being said, there are also pros and cons of working with a big wig or a tenured faculty also. If you can afford it financially, I would suggest just apply and see if you get an interview. After you get an acceptance, then you can discuss (respectfully and humbly, you don't want to start off on a bad foot) possibilities regarding funding, such as funding mechanisms available at the program and/or mentor, is funding guaranteed for at least 4 years, etc. Of the colleagues I've seen who have not done well in grad school and/or dropped out, no one has done so because they worked with a junior faculty.

 

[PsyDaVinci]

Your situation sounds frighteningly similar to mine... almost makes me wonder if your applying to my PhD program.

I think it's fair to ask about what her track record with grant applications have been, such as are they internal development grants, federal grants, etc., which can be part of a larger discussion of current and future projects. It's also fair to ask about why she took a position in this program, specifically how her work fits with the overall mission of the department. Remember that you are part of a larger department not just a specific research team; that goes for her as well, and if she isn't fitting in well professionally that could possibly be an issue. Finally, if you meet independently with current students, you can inquire about her reputation as a teacher: do people feel like they are getting enough out of her classes, is she organized, do other faculty encourage students to take her electives, things of that nature.

I don't know about the etiquette about specific tenure questioning, but certainly this is all potential issues that COULD be on the table tenure-wise.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I would encourage you to apply to a lab if you are interested in the work being done there. The things you want to know are the types of things that you can figure out when you are there interviewing, if you get invited. Writing off junior faculty as potential mentors because 'they are assistant professors' would be a mistake as it would reduce a large number of open spots (and potentially very good ones) from your consideration. Those people may be great fits for you that are located in great programs. There are just as many strengths to assistants (having just started means being familiarity with the process of doctoral school and internship, larger drive to publish, greater role in the lab, larger push to get grants) as there are weaknesses (may not have strong grant backgrounds, trying to establish a mentorship model). Some, all, or none of those may apply to any specific junior faculty you are applying to work with. Its more about who the person is as a professional/researcher and what the culture of the department is like than it is an issue of 'are assistant professors good to work with'.

Signed,
someone starting as an assistant professor next year.

 

[MCParent]

external grants

NIH? Unless this is some insanely high level program that expects multiple R01s before tenure, she'll get tenure. If it's a lower-end program, be more worried about her leaving for a bigger program if someone comes knocking.

 

[therapist89]

NIH? Unless this is some insanely high level program that expects multiple R01s before tenure, she'll get tenure. If it's a lower-end program, be more worried about her leaving for a bigger program if someone comes knocking.

Not NIH, but at agencies that seem to be at or near NIH-level for her field of study.

Thank you everyone for your insight so far, this has been extremely helpful. I've received an invitation to interview, so I'll ask a lot of questions pertaining to the quality of her teaching and her reputation as a professor. She has three grad students (who, luckily for them, will either be finished or almost finished by the time her tenure review comes up), and I can inquire about their experience working with her - they've all published quite a bit, so that seems to be a good sign, though I'll ask more about the working environment and how the prof fits into the program atmosphere. Then, if I get an offer, I can have a more blunt (yet still respectful) conversation with the professor about her future plans... and potentially I'll bring up tenure/what I'll do if she doesn't get tenure in a super polite and not assumptive way.

 

[summerbabe]

If it's a lower-end program, be more worried about her leaving for a bigger program if someone comes knocking.

Yup, definitely seen this happen multiple times

 

[MCParent]

Insane? I thought it was normal or . Hmm.

In any case, there is always risk that a faculty mentor will leave. I have a friend whose primary mentor died right after her dissertation was proposed. I know people who have gone through multiple faculty mentor departures. I've observed entire department turnover multiple times (where basically no labs that were present within the five previous years, remain). It happens. In my experience, departments are accommodating. If it's a good school, there should be lots of people doing things that are interesting that dovetail with whatever you might be working on. I wouldn't worry about it.

More important is production (papers). Also, as a hedge, you might create relationships with other faculty members doing related work. For example, if your primary mentor research "x" process and another faculty member used methods that might inform the "x" process, you might integrate the two for thesis or dissertation work. I'd aim for 1-3 "mentors" of this sort in graduate school.

And people often get to take their students if they go (but not always).

I shouldn't have written "worry" in retrospect. I was paralleling the sense of the OP's post. The "practical consideration" is that she would get an offer elsewhere, with that concern being amplified if there are other things going on (e.g., if she is the only grant-funded person in the dept; if the uni gives no office of research support for grants and she is having to write the entire things herself).

 

[deleted343839]

And people often get to take their students if they go (but not always).

This almost happened to me (twice) when my mentor went on the market. Both offers included provisions for me and my lab mates to transfer to the new institution.

I agree that for a faculty mentor who is getting grants and publishing regularly, the risk of switching institutions is probably greater than the risk of not getting tenure, except in the most cutthroat departments.