Applying to MSTP (MD-PhD) Programs Advice?

[Study TillYou Drop]

I plan on applying to MD/PhD schools cycle 2022-2023.

Hi guys, I just wanted to post this hear for feedback on how I should improve my application before I apply (will be applying in 2022), as well as any advice anyone has. I've put my stats down below and if anyone could give some advice, it would be greatly appreciated!

- Caucasian female

- I was dealing with a lot of personal issues in the past that affected me for four semesters (only 1 withdraw from orgo 1 that was during this time and got A when I retook it and now TA for course) in freshmen/sophomore year so my cGPA currently is a 3.76 but I have been improving as things have gotten better (with an upward trend, expected to be 3.80-3.82 by the time I graduate undergrad)

- double major in Neuroscience and Behavior and Sociology with a Minor in Spanish

- taking MCAT in spring 2020 (and planning on retaking it 1-2 times if necessary, hopefully shooting for 520+)

- Completed a lower division honors program and currently completing an Honors Thesis in Neuroscience Program in collaboration with a top five research institution and my school (based on my Neuroscience Research) as well as Honors Thesis in Sociology Program (based on my sociology research) = LOR from both professors/directors of the programs as I have taken classes with them as well and also will be assessing me through my thesis

Research

- approx. 100 hours in sociology research lab so far on my own project I started this semester and received a grant for the project (projecting to do 500-750 hours)

- approx. 100-150 hours in epilepsy Lab and received a grant (but I switched labs and plan on staying in current lab for next 3.5 years for the rest of undergrad and biomed masters: projected to hopefully get 2000-2500 hours or so; hopefully along with presentations at SFN, AMSA National, etc , grants, publications, etc)

- projected to complete both honors thesis programs in Spring 2020

- Plan on doing summer internship research programs for the next 3-4 summers (hopefully one at my school this summer, one in Germany, 1-2 in NIH/other institutions)

- Plan on doing biomedical masters and hopefully becoming an RA for current lab

- Plan on taking a gap year after masters to do a research internship throughout the year (thoughts?)


Clinical:

• Volunteer at my local hospital in IV outpatient for almost three years and have accumulated 700 hours total so far
  • started my own program in the hospital for the past two years and hope to turn it into a non profit within the next 1-2 years (program would be established for 5-6 years total when applying and 2-3 years as a non-profit)
    
    
  • Recently have received volunteer of the month award at the hospital
    
    
  • hopefully switch units into the ER/ICU for the next three years (usually do 4 hours a week on weekends in the morning)
    
    
  • plan on receiving around 1750-2000 hours total by the time I leave (with IV outpatient, ER/ICU, and program)
• Shadowed DO Neurosurgeon for 80 hours and MD Pediatrician for 15 hours (3 in Bahamas and 12 in United States and plan on completing 35 more hours)
  
  
• Have shadowed doctors abroad through medical outreach trips ~20 hours
  
  
• Plan on shadowing at most 8 more different speciality doctors in US for 50 hours each (at least 1-2 with an MD/PhD to learn from their experiences and if we work well together, get LOR from one)
  
  
• Medical mission trip to Bahamas x2 (took blood pressure and vital signs on the people of the community, shadowed doctors at the local hospital: emergency med, OBGYN, pathologist during autopsies, and volunteered at various non-profits) = 100 total hours and plan on going for the next 3 years (~250 volunteer hours total between 5 years)
  
  
• Medical mission trip to Costa Rica x1 (basically same experiences as Bahamas and the experience made me realize I wanted to minor in spanish in order to better communicate with my patients so I plan on returning once I have readily acquired the language and hopefully help in translating) 100 volunteer hrs currently and ~200 total
  
  
• Plan on potentially attending medical outreach trips to Haiti, Honduras, and/or Ghana/Thailand (thoughts?)

Nonclinical

• Projecting to volunteer more with non-profit organization “Feeding “location”” around 50-100 hours
  
  
• Planning to be Director of Research for around 3.5 years for the biggest pre-health organization on our campus
  
  
• Hopefully planning on applying as President or other eboard position in my final year of masters for same organization
  
  
• Have been an Organic Chemistry TA and planning on doing it for 5 semesters total
  • Will be receiving LOR from Organic Chem Professor who was my professor and that I have been a TA for and during the course worked on a 5000 word paper honors project based on the mechanisms behind reactions with neurotransmitters
• Standardized Patient Program = 65 volunteer hours but end around 100 hours once applying
  
  
• Gross Anatomy Labs = 25-50 labs or so by time I apply (50-100 hours of experience)
  
  
• Someone in my family is a pilot so I travel a lot and have experienced different life experiences and cultures
  
  
• 2nd degree black belt in tae kwon do
  
  
• Love to go skimboarding, do aerial yoga, and train with weights at the gym regularly

The main schools I’m shooting for is UPenn, Columbia, and other top schools because the research labs they have are intertwined with my interests specifically around Neurocriminology/Psychopathology, and a couple in state schools. I just wanted to know where I stood and what I should improve on and whether its more practical and advisable to allocate some of the time elsewhere.

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[JeSuisUnDoc]

Wait; what do you mean planning on retaking the MCAT one or two times?
I’m also curious to know what adcoms here think of the medical trips. What qualifications did you have to be able to do direct patient care? Or is this too minimal so it’s ok? @Goro @LizzyM


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[Study TillYou Drop]

Wait; what do you mean planning on retaking the MCAT one or two times?


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If I do not receive a score that I am satisfied with the first time, I am open and have time to prepare and retake it in order to try and reach a competitive score for MD/PhD programs at these schools.

 

[doc05]

I plan on applying to MD/PhD schools cycle 2022-2023.

Hi guys, I just wanted to post this hear for feedback on how I should improve my application before I apply (will be applying in 2022), as well as any advice anyone has. I've put my stats down below and if anyone could give some advice, it would be greatly appreciated!

- Caucasian female

- I was dealing with a lot of personal issues in the past that affected me for four semesters (only 1 withdraw from orgo 1 that was during this time and got A when I retook it and now TA for course) in freshmen/sophomore year so my cGPA currently is a 3.76 but I have been improving as things have gotten better (with an upward trend, expected to be 3.80-3.82 by the time I graduate undergrad)

- double major in Neuroscience and Behavior and Sociology with a Minor in Spanish

- taking MCAT in spring 2020 (and planning on retaking it 1-2 times if necessary, hopefully shooting for 520+)

- Completed a lower division honors program and currently completing an Honors Thesis in Neuroscience Program in collaboration with a top five research institution and my school (based on my Neuroscience Research) as well as Honors Thesis in Sociology Program (based on my sociology research) = LOR from both professors/directors of the programs as I have taken classes with them as well and also will be assessing me through my thesis

Research

- approx. 100 hours in sociology research lab so far on my own project I started this semester and received a grant for the project (projecting to do 500-750 hours)

- approx. 100-150 hours in epilepsy Lab and received a grant (but I switched labs and plan on staying in current lab for next 3.5 years for the rest of undergrad and biomed masters: projected to hopefully get 2000-2500 hours or so; hopefully along with presentations at SFN, AMSA National, etc , grants, publications, etc)

- projected to complete both honors thesis programs in Spring 2020

- Plan on doing summer internship research programs for the next 3-4 summers (hopefully one at my school this summer, one in Germany, 1-2 in NIH/other institutions)

- Plan on doing biomedical masters and hopefully becoming an RA for current lab

- Plan on taking a gap year after masters to do a research internship throughout the year (thoughts?)


Clinical:

• Volunteer at my local hospital in IV outpatient for almost three years and have accumulated 700 hours total so far
  • started my own program in the hospital for the past two years and hope to turn it into a non profit within the next 1-2 years (program would be established for 5-6 years total when applying and 2-3 years as a non-profit)
    
    
  • Recently have received volunteer of the month award at the hospital
    
    
  • hopefully switch units into the ER/ICU for the next three years (usually do 4 hours a week on weekends in the morning)
    
    
  • plan on receiving around 1750-2000 hours total by the time I leave (with IV outpatient, ER/ICU, and program)
• Shadowed DO Neurosurgeon for 80 hours and MD Pediatrician for 15 hours (3 in Bahamas and 12 in United States and plan on completing 35 more hours)
  
  
• Have shadowed doctors abroad through medical outreach trips ~20 hours
  
  
• Plan on shadowing at most 8 more different speciality doctors in US for 50 hours each (at least 1-2 with an MD/PhD to learn from their experiences and if we work well together, get LOR from one)
  
  
• Medical mission trip to Bahamas x2 (took blood pressure and vital signs on the people of the community, shadowed doctors at the local hospital: emergency med, OBGYN, pathologist during autopsies, and volunteered at various non-profits) = 100 total hours and plan on going for the next 3 years (~250 volunteer hours total between 5 years)
  
  
• Medical mission trip to Costa Rica x1 (basically same experiences as Bahamas and the experience made me realize I wanted to minor in spanish in order to better communicate with my patients so I plan on returning once I have readily acquired the language and hopefully help in translating) 100 volunteer hrs currently and ~200 total
  
  
• Plan on potentially attending medical outreach trips to Haiti, Honduras, and/or Ghana/Thailand (thoughts?)

Nonclinical

• Projecting to volunteer more with non-profit organization “Feeding “location”” around 50-100 hours
  
  
• Planning to be Director of Research for around 3.5 years for the biggest pre-health organization on our campus
  
  
• Hopefully planning on applying as President or other eboard position in my final year of masters for same organization
  
  
• Have been an Organic Chemistry TA and planning on doing it for 5 semesters total
  • Will be receiving LOR from Organic Chem Professor who was my professor and that I have been a TA for and during the course worked on a 5000 word paper honors project based on the mechanisms behind reactions with neurotransmitters
• Standardized Patient Program = 65 volunteer hours but end around 100 hours once applying
  
  
• Gross Anatomy Labs = 25-50 labs or so by time I apply (50-100 hours of experience)
  
  
• Someone in my family is a pilot so I travel a lot and have experienced different life experiences and cultures
  
  
• 2nd degree black belt in tae kwon do
  
  
• Love to go skimboarding, do aerial yoga, and train with weights at the gym regularly

The main schools I’m shooting for is UPenn, Columbia, and other top schools because the research labs they have are intertwined with my interests specifically around Neurocriminology/Psychopathology, and a couple in state schools. I just wanted to know where I stood and what I should improve on and whether its more practical and advisable to allocate some of the time elsewhere.

Your mcat will really determine how competitive you are for MSTP.

Would recommend you drop the sociology major, it's useless and will distract you from serious neuroscience research ( I assume you intend to do the PhD in neuroscience or something related).

Good luck.

 

[gyngyn]

If I do not receive a score that I am satisfied with the first time, I am open and have time to prepare and retake it in order to try and reach a competitive score for MD/PhD programs at these schools.

I don't recommend this.
A single score consistent with success is a far better strategy.

 

[gyngyn]

Wait; what do you mean planning on retaking the MCAT one or two times?
I’m also curious to know what adcoms here think of the medical trips. [/USER]


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Many of us view them askance.

 

[Study TillYou Drop]

Your mcat will really determine how competitive you are for MSTP.

Would recommend you drop the sociology major, it's useless and will distract you from serious neuroscience research ( I assume you intend to do the PhD in neuroscience or something related).

Good luck.

Do you have any prep courses you would recommend?

I understand where you are coming from but there are a few reasons why I love double majoring in Neuro and Sociology. Right now I am a little young and wanted to gain more experiences so double majoring in sociology allows me to learn more about perspectives/beliefs so I can connect more with my patients and hopefully become a more understanding physician, understand how environmental contexts shape behavior as well as the physiological aspects that shapes behavior: such as taking classes together Psychopharmacology (Neuro) with Drugs and Society (sociology), and also extend my time to have time to complete the thesis programs (~2 year program) and space out classes evenly so I can do extracurriculars. My research in sociology incorporates an aspect of mental health/neuroscience.

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

I would be leery of more medical missions.

You don't need so much clinical experience as a MD/PhD applicant -- if you find yourself short on time, you can give up your clinical volunteering for more research.

If you are shooting for top programs such as UPenn and Columbia, then if you get accepted or not is almost entirely predicated on (1) your research and research output and (2) your MCAT.

There's too much projection going on to give you meaningful advice (you have ~200 hours of research so far?) other than focus on research first and foremost and do well on your MCAT. If you get <516 you might have a hard time getting accepted by top MSTP programs without excellent research. In fact, after more research you might find yourself not so interested in getting a MD/PhD ; )

 

[doc05]

Do you have any prep courses you would recommend?

I understand where you are coming from but there are a few reasons why I love double majoring in Neuro and Sociology. Right now I am a little young and wanted to gain more experiences so double majoring in sociology allows me to learn more about perspectives/beliefs so I can connect more with my patients and hopefully become a more understanding physician, understand how environmental contexts shape behavior as well as the physiological aspects that shapes behavior: such as taking classes together Psychopharmacology (Neuro) with Drugs and Society (sociology), and also extend my time to have time to complete the thesis programs (~2 year program) and space out classes evenly so I can do extracurriculars. My research in sociology incorporates an aspect of mental health/neuroscience.

Sorry, it's been a long time since I did the mcat, and frankly, I didn't need a prep course.

Also, important to consider your motivations for the combined (MD-PhD) degree.

 

[JeSuisUnDoc]

Study well and take the MCAT once and do good. Taking it multiple times is a baaad idea as they don’t take « the best score ».
Also, stop those medical missions, they’re frowned upon.


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[kepler16b]

I'm a current applicant so take my advice with a grain of salt...

A 3.76 GPA is good. No need for any qualifiers.

Why do you want to do a masters? Your GPA is great.

Consider focusing on research in a single lab for an extended period of time.

Plan to take the MCAT only once. It isn't like the SAT. Seriously. Getting a 517 and retaking to 521 will look bad, and most good schools average scores anyway.

I believe 8x50 hrs shadowing experience is excessive. That time would be better spent on research. I don't think you need any more shadowing.

Your research plan is quite ambitious. I would temper your expectations, especially if you plan on leaving your lab every summer.

I think a gap year to do research is almost always helpful for MD/PhD. But I don't see why a masters would be helpful... Classes would just get in the way of research time.

From my experience, grades/MCAT/research record along with your ability to craft a cohesive research narrative are the most important components of an successful MD/PhD application.

My advice? Focus in and double down on the research that is calling to you. Forget the extra premed gunner stuff.

 

[WedgeDawg]

MSTP programs, especially the ones that you mentioned, are very very competitive. The most important aspects of your application will be your MCAT score and your research experience and output. A GPA of 3.8 or so will be fine (read: around average) for MSTP, might be a little on the lower end but within striking distance of top places.

Do not plan on taking the MCAT multiple times. The best advice I can give you is don't take the MCAT until you have multiple practice scores under full test-like conditions at or above your target score. Taking the MCAT is not like taking the SAT where people only look at your best overall score or even your best subsections - each score counts and will be looked at. The vast majority of top applicants, let alone MSTP applicants, have only taken it once and did very well the first time around.

In terms of research, you basically need to show that you have a commitment to medical research, understand the research process, and have the ability to be productive. Productivity is much more important for an MSTP applicant than it is for a regular MD applicant. I don't think getting a masters is necessary or that it'll be particularly helpful, but it would probably be worthwhile to work (paid) in a lab for a year and try to get your name on a couple of papers. My med school lab has several people doing this as a gap between undergrad and med school and they've all been quite productive.

The extra shadowing and international medical outreach is unnecessary and your time would better be spent studying for the MCAT, keeping your GPA high, or doing research. Letters from doctors you shadow will be totally pointless and noncontributory. You will need a very strong letter from your research mentor, however.

The tl;dr here is take the MCAT once and do well and focus your extra time on research.

 

[Study TillYou Drop]

I'm a current applicant so take my advice with a grain of salt...

A 3.76 GPA is good. No need for any qualifiers.

Why do you want to do a masters? Your GPA is great.

Consider focusing on research in a single lab for an extended period of time.

Plan to take the MCAT only once. It isn't like the SAT. Seriously. Getting a 517 and retaking to 521 will look bad, and most good schools average scores anyway.

I believe 8x50 hrs shadowing experience is excessive. That time would be better spent on research. I don't think you need any more shadowing.

Your research plan is quite ambitious. I would temper your expectations, especially if you plan on leaving your lab every summer.

I think a gap year to do research is almost always helpful for MD/PhD. But I don't see why a masters would be helpful... Classes would just get in the way of research time.

By eye your "clinical volunteering" is a bit lacking, but I believe most MD/PhD programs weight this less.

From my experience, grades/MCAT/research record along with your ability to craft a cohesive research narrative are the most important components of an successful MD/PhD application.

My advise? Focus in and double down on the research that is calling to you. Forget the extra premed gunner stuff.

I didn't know that about the MCAT, thank you so much for your advice!

I wasn't sure about shadowing because I know UPenn, Columbia, etc wants rockstar students all around for MD/PhD programs, so I wasn't sure how much was enough to be considered competitive in other aspects outside of academia and research.

Personally when I graduate from undergrad I would be 19 so because of this I am wayyy too young for MD, nevertheless MD/PhD, and plus I would have only had 2-2.5 years of research experience, which I know I could most definitely improve on. With the masters program I am applying to I would only do 12 credits of regular classes and 18 credits of thesis related credits over a period of 2 years. I plan on staying in my current lab for the next 3.5-4 years. Also, in order to continue in leadership positions and participate in certain events), I have to be enrolled at the university.

For clinical volunteering, in which aspects do you think I could improve on particularly? I feel as though I am really integrated with the hospital and have invested a lot of effort and time so far, but is it the little diversity outside the hospital?

I believe focusing and allocating the time elsewhere (for example less with shadowing to more research) is really helpful, thank you so much!

 

[Lucca]

also current applicant here. I've interviewed at one of the places you mentioned. I'm agreeing broadly with @kepler16b and @WedgeDawg

I'll add a few things:

1. planning ahead is great but you don't as of yet have enough research experience to be competitive for MD/PhD (as I'm sure you are already aware given that you dont plan on applying for a few years). That also means, however, that you do not yet have enough research experience to have a very solid idea of whether you really should even get a PhD, much less what specific hyper-niche field you want to do your PhD in. Having ideas is good, but get the experience first and then sit down and more seriously consider your options as they are many. You will have the freedom to change your mind in medical school anyway and many do.

2. Double majoring in neuro and socio is great and I think that's great, good on ya for doing it.

3. Remember that the MCAT expires within 3 years after taking it for most schools (2 yrs at UCLA) so plan to take it in 2020 or so to apply 2022-23. You need a 516+ to be competitive for the schools you mentioned. 520+ ideally.

4. Dont do a postbacc with a 3.76 you're fine with that GPA. Don't do a Master's if it involves coursework, use that time for research.

As for how to improve your research experience, I recommend doing something where you can spend 1-2 years on a single project as the leader of a project with high potential to publish or present at conferences. One, single, longitudinal and independent research experience will show that you are prepared for a PhD. Your LOR will also be better from a PI that knows you better and you have a higher chance of getting a good publication or presentation out of a longer project rather than doing a bunch of little projects at different places. I recommend the NIH IRTA postbacc research program.

Clinical XP is fine for MD/PhD.

Literally no ECs other than research from now on. The rest of your app is going to look good and well-rounded on paper. Research, research, research. Take time off to do very well on the MCAT because the bar is high for MD/PhD. Best of luck.

 

[kepler16b]

I didn't know that about the MCAT, thank you so much for your advice!

I wasn't sure about shadowing because I know UPenn, Columbia, etc wants rockstar students all around for MD/PhD programs, so I wasn't sure how much was enough to be considered competitive in other aspects outside of academia and research.

Personally when I graduate from undergrad I would be 19 so because of this I am wayyy too young for MD, nevertheless MD/PhD, and plus I would have only had 2-2.5 years of research experience, which I know I could most definitely improve on. With the masters program I am applying to I would only do 12 credits of regular classes and 18 credits of thesis related credits over a period of 2 years. I plan on staying in my current lab for the next 3.5-4 years. Also, in order to continue in leadership positions and participate in certain events), I have to be enrolled at the university.

For clinical volunteering, in which aspects do you think I could improve on particularly? I feel as though I am really integrated with the hospital and have invested a lot of effort and time so far, but is it the little diversity outside the hospital?

I believe focusing and allocating the time elsewhere (for example less with shadowing to more research) is really helpful, thank you so much!

Sorry, I missed the clinical volunteering line in your original post. Your clinical volunteering hours are more than enough for MD/PhD. Like @Lucca said, your best bet is to drop all other EC's and focus on research for the next few years, ideally on a single independent project where you are the lead.

 

[faerie62]

are you planning on doing your PhD in sociology or biomedical sciences? if it's the latter, it's probably a better idea to focus your research on just that from now on, to maximize productivity (posters, publications, presentations, etc). just my 2 cents.

 

[eteshoe]

I will say that doing a masters isn’t harmful if it’s a thesis based one where you can publish some of your work (I did that in my case since it was free w/ a stipend).

The biggest things necessary for the dual degree path are strong GPA (3.8+), strong MCAT (520+), and strong research. By strong research I mean the equivalent of at least 2 yrs of full time research effort (~4000 hrs). The more research output you can derive (posters, middle & primary authorships, conferences, presentations, etc) -> the better you’ll be prepared. It will show when you write and discuss about your experiences.

Remember the goal of this type of training (typically 8-10 yrs in length) is to develop physicians that can bridge the clinic and the bench. Most physician scientist spend a majority of their time with research duties. The more reps you put in doing research for the next few years the better idea you’ll have about this pathway. Talk to as many physician scientists as you can going forward. Agree w/ @Lucca - your research interests will almost certainly change in the next 5 years so the specifics aren’t that important at this stage.


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[wholeheartedly]

@Lucca 's post is money, so I'm not going to reiterate it all.

I would like to say that it seems like you're a very intelligent overachiever and that's great. But it can also make you fall into the trap of setting all of these lofty goals, trying to do everything, without taking enough time to just sit with some of these decisions and make sure you're setting and achieving the right goals for yourself. Make sure you pause regularly to reassess what you really want to do and give yourself permission to change your mind.

When you get to that point, I'd also recommend something like the NIH IRTA.

Since you're young, you don't need to rush this. Please make sure you live it up and have some fun while you can.

 

[Goro]

If I do not receive a score that I am satisfied with the first time, I am open and have time to prepare and retake it in order to try and reach a competitive score for MD/PhD programs at these schools.

Quoting the wise Homeskool: Taking the MCAT is like getting married: ideally you only do it once, and the more times you do it the worse you start looking to suitors with good judgment.

We view medical missions as "medical tourism".