Anesthesiologist shortage 12k by 2033

[makemoney2024]

I mean after "They were lucky to be invited to work at your surgery center. "...... I wish this dude to never get staffed ever........ that's the type of attitude they are eating now .....

Eeh. I bet they are still staffed. So many spineless anesthesia groups and some who only care about money and not how they are treated? Didn’t someone just a few weeks on here in DFW say that they routinely staff some surgicenters where cases start at 6 am because if they refused, some other anesthesia group would gobble up all that good private paying money?

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[MCAJrob]

I’m happy you enjoy Cincinnati. Your right about the compensation it is high. My point is that it’s high because your in Cincinnati. Supply and demand issues, maybe a better term than desirability, make those type of less populated locations pay higher in order to attract people out there.

Our practice lost a couple of people to upstate NY because we couldn’t match their package. It always blew my mind .. you would really choose there over here for 100k more? But your right to each their own

What does your hourly rate come out to, and what location if you don't mind me asking? Could help people get a comparison. DC I'm guessing at some point?

When Comparing only w2 jobs, we’re nearly doubling up on the hourly of other large cities like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Boston, Charlotte, Atlanta.

 

[Coffee PRN]

What does your hourly rate come out to, and what location if you don't mind me asking? Could help people get a comparison. DC I'm guessing at some point?

We're nearly doubling up on the hourly of other large cities like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Boston, Charlotte, Atlanta on a W2 basis.

Cincinnati is fine, but you cannot talk about it in the same sentence as those other actual cities you mentioned. If I were being paid double would it make up for it? Probably

 

[aneftp]

What’s it paying MDs? $500?

Not many. $450 is the higher end.

They need crnas more than docs in upstate New York. And frankly the way incentives work. Many w2 docs are pushing 700-750k w2 there. Thus a super need to over pay for docs at $500/hr

Cincinnati is fine, but you cannot talk about it in the same sentence as those other actual cities you mentioned. If I were being paid double would it make up for it? Probably

To be honest. Any place is fine to work with as long as u have family or friends or whoever you want to associate with.

I’ve worked in various places. Throughout the country. NYC was meh. Mid atlantic was ok. Bay Area west coast and la area were good (have friends and family) just hated the cost. South has been good to me but mid west were good also.

 

[makemoney2024]

What does your hourly rate come out to, and what location if you don't mind me asking? Could help people get a comparison. DC I'm guessing at some point?

We're nearly doubling up on the hourly of other large cities like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Boston, Charlotte, Atlanta on a W2 basis.

Dallas is paying $300-325 last I heard.

 

[aneftp]

Dallas is paying $300-325 last I heard.

Correct. Not great

 

[makemoney2024]

Correct. Not great

Almost Double that is $500+. So no.

 

[Hoya11]

What does your hourly rate come out to, and what location if you don't mind me asking? Could help people get a comparison. DC I'm guessing at some point?

When Comparing only w2 jobs, we’re nearly doubling up on the hourly of other large cities like Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Boston, Charlotte, Atlanta.

Outside NYC and 275 gets a lot of resumes

 

[amyl]

Correct. Not great

300-325 for locums in dallas? Is that what you meant?
Dallas proper has lots of good permanent jobs so it’s not a good locums market

 

[makemoney2024]

300-325 for locums in dallas? Is that what you meant?
Dallas proper has lots of good permanent jobs so it’s not a good locums market

Per hour

 

[amyl]

Yes dallas is not a good locums market… our permanent positions are good so less openings. Also lots of us locked into nice 3% mortgages on homes that have gone up in value- dallas is desirable location.
The most $ I’m hearing these days is Montana Portland and Memphis - all undesirable.

 

[raztes]

Yes dallas is not a good locums market… our permanent positions are good so less openings. Also lots of us locked into nice 3% mortgages on homes that have gone up in value- dallas is desirable location.
The most $ I’m hearing these days is Montana Portland and Memphis - all undesirable.

East access to skiing, mountain biking, Pacific Ocean, the best national parks, fly fishing, breweries, etc is soooo undesirable.

 

[triggermaster]

East access to skiing, mountain biking, Pacific Ocean, the best national parks, fly fishing, breweries, etc is soooo undesirable.

Didn’t they turn over the city to that BLM personal enrichment (but somehow Marxist 😂) group?

 

[raztes]

Didn’t they turn over the city to that BLM personal enrichment (but somehow Marxist 😂) group?

Probs, but it’s not always about politics. It’s sh**ty everywhere. But hey, we all have to make excuses for where we live…

 

[kidthor]

East access to skiing, mountain biking, Pacific Ocean, the best national parks, fly fishing, breweries, etc is soooo undesirable.

Yeah seriously - one could do much worse than Portland. As a city it seems like it’d be a great locums spot.

 

[aneftp]

Almost Double that is $500+. So no.

Well if u have family and are established in the area with kids in school. It’s harder to move around.

Locums is the way to go if u are single or no kids and want to chase the $$$.

Yes dallas is not a good locums market… our permanent positions are good so less openings. Also lots of us locked into nice 3% mortgages on homes that have gone up in value- dallas is desirable location.
The most $ I’m hearing these days is Montana Portland and Memphis - all undesirable.

all correct information about Dallas.

 

[makemoney2024]

Well if u have family and are established in the area with kids in school. It’s harder to move around.

Locums is the way to go if u are single or no kids and want to chase the $$$.


all correct information about Dallas.

So glad you are here to verify and confirm!! Put your stamp of approval on it why don’t ya?

 

[amyl]

No offense meant - Portland bad bc 13% income tax, expensive housing and clearly dip**** hospital admin. Montana is too cold for most and limited employment options for spouses if people care about that. Montana may be desirable for some - lucky them it’s probably a good gig for them - but not desirable for everyone.
Memphis seems great except for clearly stupid hospital admin and apparently it’s dangerous and full of criminals.

Dallas is a more mainstream desirable locale

 

[nimbus]

No offense meant - Portland bad bc 13% income tax, expensive housing and clearly dip**** hospital admin.

OAG is out of Providence but picked up more Legacy sites. Maybe Legacy isn’t run by dip****s.

 

[MTGas2B]

No offense meant - Portland bad bc 13% income tax, expensive housing and clearly dip**** hospital admin. Montana is too cold for most and limited employment options for spouses if people care about that. Montana may be desirable for some - lucky them it’s probably a good gig for them - but not desirable for everyone.
Memphis seems great except for clearly stupid hospital admin and apparently it’s dangerous and full of criminals.

Dallas is a more mainstream desirable locale

13% marginal (state + homeless + preschool) rate only applies in one of the three counties of the metro area. Homeless tax in the other two, but sunsets in 2030. No sales tax, FWIW.

 

[amyl]

OAG is out of Providence but picked up more Legacy sites. Maybe Legacy isn’t run by dip****s.

Yes that’s what I meant - providence that didn’t pay oag when they asked are dip****s - the gossip I heard was that oags ask was very reasonable

 

[coffeebythelake]

13% marginal (state + homeless + preschool) rate only applies in one of the three counties of the metro area. Homeless tax in the other two, but sunsets in 2030. No sales tax, FWIW.

Then live and work in Vancouver WA and do your shopping in Portland OR. !!!

 

[deleted1189238]

Chicago is a **** market too except locums work, for now. These hospitals going to 1:4 supervision no doubt

 

[narcotics999]

Chicago is a **** market too except locums work, for now. These hospitals going to 1:4 supervision no doubt

Where do you get the 4x CRNA?

 

[coffeebythelake]

Where do you get the 4x CRNA?

Most places don't plan 1:4 ratio unless u are dealing with Deathstar or other AMGs or Rush GI center

 

[aneftp]

Most places don't plan 1:4 ratio unless u are dealing with Deathstar or other AMGs or Rush GI center

Most 1:4 are simple

Though doing 1:4 with a double lung/heart transplant plus Cabg in another room both rooms coming off pump simultaneously is stressful and less experienced crnas in those rooms. Have to delay coming off pump in one of those rooms and it’s 8pm and less staff available

That’s the type of 1:4 u don’t want.

 

[gunnershow]

Most 1:4 are simple

Though doing 1:4 with a double lung/heart transplant plus Cabg in another room both rooms coming off pump simultaneously is stressful and less experienced crnas in those rooms. Have to delay coming off pump in one of those rooms and it’s 8pm and less staff available

That’s the type of 1:4 u don’t want.

There's really no 1:4 that I would want, I don't care how simple it is.

 

[sevo00]

There's really no 1:4 that I would want, I don't care how simple it is.

Likewise. I would never entertain a job prospect if it required 1:4. People here Can put it here however they want to help them sleep better at night but at that point you’re just a preop monkey and chart signer

 

[triggermaster]

Likewise. I would never entertain a job prospect if it required 1:4. People here Can put it here however they want to help them sleep better at night but at that point you’re just a preop monkey and chart signer

Sort of… but you also do 4 times as many positive things- blocks, lines, difficult airways, etc.

 

[Crabbygas]

Sort of… but you also do 4 times as many positive things- blocks, lines, difficult airways, etc.

And you get 4 times the liability. Kinda surprised the malpractice insurance companies don't demand higher rates for that.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Sort of… but you also do 4 times as many positive things- blocks, lines, difficult airways, etc.

Not when surgeons are breathing down your neck because you have 4x 730 starts with GAs or blocks

 

[triggermaster]

Not when surgeons are breathing down your neck because you have 4x 730 starts with GAs or blocks

Yeah, you start early, get fast, probably have 2 blocks maybe 3 starting at 7:30. Luckily you get plenty of practice to be fast 😉.

 

[aneftp]

There's really no 1:4 that I would want, I don't care how simple it is.

So you just want to do solo?

There are many ways to skin a cat.

1:2
1:3
1:4
1:8 (crnas qz)

Solo.

The issue is we have a labor pool issue.

If x hospital wants to start 20 rooms by 7/730am
Plus add on flex to 22 room by 9-10am

Still wants to run 12 rooms by 3p
8 rooms by 5p

Where do u find the bodies ?

 

[Howard888]

No need to have MDs sitting ASA 1-3 ASC type cases. Also prefer ACT model for bigger cases as 4 hands.

MD only isn’t justified. Cost prohibitive and less hands on deck. Debates over supervision ratios can be had all day but it’s not a one hat fits all: higher the acuity, lower the supervision ratio and vice versa. MD only would die out sooner but CRNAs have been smarter than MDs in negotiating and setting terms so the cost savings isn’t what it used to be and there aren’t enough CRNAs or AAs. MD only will still eventually go away but what was a 5-10 year window is probably now 10-15

 

[anaesthetic]

Sort of… but you also do 4 times as many positive things- blocks, lines, difficult airways, etc.

Yeah, you start early, get fast, probably have 2 blocks maybe 3 starting at 7:30. Luckily you get plenty of practice to be fast 😉.

Been there, done that, got good. You also have 4 times as many morning breaks, lunch breaks, and afternoon breaks, as well as 4 times as many arguments with surgeons scheduling suboptimal patients for their purely elective surgeries. That's if your ratios don't exceed 1:4 (ours did frequently when severely understaffed). Don't get me started on the liability aspect.

Also solo'd hearts/transplants/dissections. Still prefer solo 100% of the time regardless of the case.

 

[DocMcCoy]

No need to have MDs sitting ASA 1-3 ASC type cases. Also prefer ACT model for bigger cases as 4 hands.

MD only isn’t justified. Cost prohibitive and less hands on deck. Debates over supervision ratios can be had all day but it’s not a one hat fits all: higher the acuity, lower the supervision ratio and vice versa. MD only would die out sooner but CRNAs have been smarter than MDs in negotiating and setting terms so the cost savings isn’t what it used to be and there aren’t enough CRNAs or AAs. MD only will still eventually go away but what was a 5-10 year window is probably now 10-15

I’ll GLADLY take the 20-30 percent pay cut to continue to sit my own cases if that ever happens.

But I don’t think it will. Wage gap will continue to narrow as the clamor for independence continues across specialties. The only incentivized pay will be call and weekends, which physicians will still bear the brunt of.

It’s strange to argue cost effective and point out CRNAs are beating the brakes off of us negotiating contracts in the same paragraph. They are modestly cost effective… for now.

Trying to rein in midlevel care is a lost cause at this point. No amount of supervision ratios or billing identifiers are going to change that.

 

[aneftp]

No need to have MDs sitting ASA 1-3 ASC type cases. Also prefer ACT model for bigger cases as 4 hands.

MD only isn’t justified. Cost prohibitive and less hands on deck. Debates over supervision ratios can be had all day but it’s not a one hat fits all: higher the acuity, lower the supervision ratio and vice versa. MD only would die out sooner but CRNAs have been smarter than MDs in negotiating and setting terms so the cost savings isn’t what it used to be and there aren’t enough CRNAs or AAs. MD only will still eventually go away but what was a 5-10 year window is probably now 10-15

So let the seniors docs take the easy 1:4 asc type of Asa 1-3 patients

The junior docs do solo Asa 4.5

All docs get paid the same?

Good luck with that explaining to the millennial generation they take the harder cases solo. Rot away in high risk 6-8 hour peds scoliosis case. While the senior guys chill outside.

 

[aneftp]

I’ll GLADLY take the 20-30 percent pay cut to continue to sit my own cases if that ever happens.

But I don’t think it will. Wage gap will continue to narrow as the clamor for independence continues across specialties. The only incentivized pay will be call and weekends, which physicians will still bear the brunt of.

It’s strange to argue cost effective and point out CRNAs are beating the brakes off of us negotiating contracts in the same paragraph. They are modestly cost effective… for now.

Trying to reign in midlevel care is a lost cause at this point. No amount of supervision ratios or billing identifiers are going to change that.

Most crnas are not available 7-3 (5) days a week these days (at least in the south)

Once docs figure it out not wanting to be available daily. It’s game over for hospitals

 

[gunnershow]

No need to have MDs sitting ASA 1-3 ASC type cases. Also prefer ACT model for bigger cases as 4 hands.

MD only isn’t justified. Cost prohibitive and less hands on deck. Debates over supervision ratios can be had all day but it’s not a one hat fits all: higher the acuity, lower the supervision ratio and vice versa. MD only would die out sooner but CRNAs have been smarter than MDs in negotiating and setting terms so the cost savings isn’t what it used to be and there aren’t enough CRNAs or AAs. MD only will still eventually go away but what was a 5-10 year window is probably now 10-15

When I'm solo, the day is stress free and I never seem to have complications. When I'm supervising, I respond to anesthesia stats all the time, have to deal with preventable PACU issues, and have to manage egos instead of managing my patients. So MD only isn't justified according to whom?

 

[Guillemot]

When I'm solo, the day is stress free and I never seem to have complications. When I'm supervising, I respond to anesthesia stats all the time, have to deal with preventable PACU issues, and have to manage egos instead of managing my patients. So MD only isn't justified according to whom?

The problem is that the bar for entry to become an anesthesiologist is also low. So many anesthesiologists actually suck, including many faculty that are ironically charged with teaching residents. So if that’s the case, there often wont be a distinction between CRNA and MD.

 

[rick roller pump]

I predict more solo work in the future. In the past, care team made financial sense. The math is changing now. Sure, MD salaries are going up. But CRNA salaries (on a relative scale) have increased more. If you have a MD in the room, you just pay the MD. With care team model, you must pay 1 CNRA per room + 1/2 vs 1/3 vs 1/4 MD (depending on concurrency ratio). When MD salaries were > 2x/hr CRNA salary, this made sense financially. Now with CRNA and MD salary becoming closer on a per hour basis, care team does not make financial sense unless ratio is high (3:1 minimum, likely 4:1). I think this will lead to more docs in rooms. The lazy MDs who can't sit a case themselves or those who simply don't give a **** will accept a position in a firefighter role (>4:1 QZ).

 

[narcotics999]

Most places don't plan 1:4 ratio unless u are dealing with Deathstar or other AMGs or Rush GI center

< 1:4 is not cost effective at all.

 

[narcotics999]

The problem is that the bar for entry to become an anesthesiologist is also low. So many anesthesiologists actually suck, including many faculty that are ironically charged with teaching residents. So if that’s the case, there often wont be a distinction between CRNA and MD.

It is not the bar that is low. It is because these anesthesiologists have significant skill atrophy.

 

[GravelRider]

The problem is that the bar for entry to become an anesthesiologist is also low. So many anesthesiologists actually suck, including many faculty that are ironically charged with teaching residents. So if that’s the case, there often wont be a distinction between CRNA and MD.

This is actually a big problem. There are a lot of anesthesiologists who could not functionally make it through a case on their own. Supervising is a self-fulfilling prophesy where the more you supervise, the more you need to supervise.

I predict more solo work in the future. In the past, care team made financial sense. The math is changing now. Sure, MD salaries are going up. But CRNA salaries (on a relative scale) have increased more. If you have a MD in the room, you just pay the MD. With care team model, you must pay 1 CNRA per room + 1/2 vs 1/3 vs 1/4 MD (depending on concurrency ratio). When MD salaries were > 2x/hr CRNA salary, this made sense financially. Now with CRNA and MD salary becoming closer on a per hour basis, care team does not make financial sense unless ratio is high (3:1 minimum, likely 4:1). I think this will lead to more docs in rooms. The lazy MDs who can't sit a case themselves or those who simply don't give a **** will accept a position in a firefighter role (>4:1 QZ).

I agree with this. There is way more solo work now, which I enjoy. Despite the thinking that MDs are going to be doing the ASA 4s and 5s, I see the opposite happening. Most of the ASCs around me are staffed by solo MD coverage where the trauma centers are increasing the CRNA presence. CRNAs are just not cost effective, especially for independent surgery centers.

 

[gunnershow]

Yeah, you start early, get fast, probably have 2 blocks maybe 3 starting at 7:30. Luckily you get plenty of practice to be fast 😉.

Believe me, I am plenty fast... Open AAA (on my own) gets thoracic epidural, induced, and lined up in 20-25min (without anesthesia tech support). But I can't be in multiple places at once. You've never had 2 or 3 ASA 4 730 starts? It's maddening trying to navigate this. The 1:4 doc just has the CRNA induce on their own and never shows their face in the room. I'm not interested in that kind of practice.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

When I'm supervising, I respond to anesthesia stats all the time,

whoever you are supervising is terrible then

 

[gunnershow]

whoever you are supervising is terrible then

Yeah, almost like they're not doctors and have never been held to the standard of doctors. Usually with high acuity cases I'm able to solo them, but sometimes you don't have a choice and who you get is who you get. I try to anticipate and steer clear of problems but there's only so much you can do with arrogant egos that refuse to notify or call for help. I often have to tell the circulator or surgeon to call for me if they sense trouble brewing.

 

[pgg]

whoever you are supervising is terrible then

Yes. There's a lot of terrible out there.

The problem is there are a lot of locums CRNAs out there that are either terrible or "uncomfortable" for extended periods of "orientation" which means they're just terrible.

My ability to control which CRNAs are hired, retained, and scheduled with me is approximately nil.

 

[triggermaster]

Believe me, I am plenty fast... Open AAA (on my own) gets thoracic epidural, induced, and lined up in 20-25min (without anesthesia tech support). But I can't be in multiple places at once. You've never had 2 or 3 ASA 4 730 starts? It's maddening trying to navigate this. The 1:4 doc just has the CRNA induce on their own and never shows their face in the room. I'm not interested in that kind of practice.

It’s moving the goalposts to go from 1:4 is terrible to 1:4 with 3 ASA 4s at 7:30 is terrible. I agree with the second set of goalposts 😂.

 

[aneftp]

When I'm solo, the day is stress free and I never seem to have complications. When I'm supervising, I respond to anesthesia stats all the time, have to deal with preventable PACU issues, and have to manage egos instead of managing my patients. So MD only isn't justified according to whom?

U sound like this colleague of mine who is truly a superstar. The issue is he’s not making 800k plus any more after selling out the practice for a couple of million each and making 60% of what he made before. No benefits to pushing the limit doing high risk cases when I can cover 1:2 or even 1:1 like I did yesterday.

This is actually a big problem. There are a lot of anesthesiologists who could not functionally make it through a case on their own. Supervising is a self-fulfilling prophesy where the more you supervise, the more you need to supervise.



I agree with this. There is way more solo work now, which I enjoy. Despite the thinking that MDs are going to be doing the ASA 4s and 5s, I see the opposite happening. Most of the ASCs around me are staffed by solo MD coverage where the trauma centers are increasing the CRNA presence. CRNAs are just not cost effective, especially for independent surgery centers.

Bingo. There are 3 types of w2 crnas out there these days

The part timer prn crna who has other things in their life

The full time crna (rare) who works 5 days a week. In our practice only 4 of the 32 crna slots are filled by 7-3 crnas

The compressed schedule crnas who work 1-3 crnas a week. 0.75-1.0. Those crnas push 350k with overtime currently in my practice with overtime. Plus another 100k in 1099 income. And frankly work the same amount of days as the day doc who’s available 5 days a week.