ABPS certification

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IPODiatrist

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so when pods complete a 3 yr residency, they see a variety of cases, some residencies being high surgical volume cases etc.

after u complete the 3 yr residency, you take the written tests, pass, then you are "board qualified" status according to the ABPS- BUT you aren't a member.

for certification, you have to take an additional written examination, or the written one the same one you need for board certification?
then you also have an oral examination.

is this right? their site is a tad confusing to me.

for those of u who know, exactly how difficult is it, what are the benefits of getting ABPS CERTIFIED? Also, when does a pod usually go for certification? Later on in practice? or have u heard of it happening with a diverse surgical case load during residency? salary jump?

Also--- do u have to "know" people to get certified? its just...what i "heard". on the "streets". the means streets of "pod".

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In response to your question(s) concerning Board Cerrification; I just completed my "Boards" this past year. The basic scenario is as follows: during residency most podiatrist generally will "sit" for their written board qualifications. This is a test based upon "basic podiatry knowledge". It is taken via a computer and takes 3-4 hours (if I recall correctly). This is merely "part of the process" that suggests that you are again knowledgeable in the basics of podiatric care. Thereafter you have ten years to "sit" for you Board Certification. To be conisdered eligeable for Board Certification you are required to submit sugical cases (those that you perform AFTER residency) encompassing certian criteria (i.e. bunion repair, hammertoes, tumors, midfoot fractures, ankle fractures, etc...). This is fairly labor intensive as it requires x-rays, op reports, notes, labs, etc... This must be carefully organized and submitted for review. Assuming that your cases are accepted you must then take an oral and written test for certification. This test is based upon surgical technique and problem solving surrounding podiatry complications and treatment protocols in the surgicla arena. This is a very strenuous and intimidating test, but I think fair nonetheless. To further complicate matters ther are Forefoot Boards and Rearfoot Boards. I actually took both sets of exams at the same time. Other people ONLY ever sit for their forefoot boards and never pursue rearfoot boards. You do need to have forefoot certification to be considered for rearfoot certification. Rearfoot involves ankle fractures, achilles ruptures, hindfoot reconstruction, etc... The point of all of these tests is to display to the public, insurance companies, and surgical centers that you are a competent and profeccient podiatrist. You do not make more money or "get promoted". Most hospitals and insurance companies will want to know your Baord status. In some instances if you are not actively pursuing Certification they will place you on suspension or will not accept you on their panels. It is merely a means to show that you are attempting to better yourself and the profession and that you are continuing your education. Lastly, it doesn't matter if you know the President of the United States, Baord Certification is based purely on your knowledge and thoughts process. It is very challenging but again very fair. Most podiatrists wait 2-3 years after residency to consider this task as it again requires case documentation. This can take time. All in all it s a great process.
 
One may not sit for the Board Certification (BC) exam for a minimum of four years after Residency. The Board Qualified (BQ) status expires after seven years and one may renew one time for an additional seven year period.

You pretty much have to become BC to get anywhere these days (at least where I am). Insurance companies and hospitals mandate it.

The case documentation process is onerous. It asks for many things such as op report, anesthesia record, lab reports, notarized letter from the Hospital Chief of Staff verifying that you were on staff at that hospital...more. I highly recommend Residents get familiar with the documentation immediately upon finishing training and gather all the needed paperwork immediately after you do each case. Trying to get paperwork years later is not cool (ask me how I know).

Nat
 
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Is it just me or does anyone else think that the way we do board certification is completely ridiculous (when compared with other medical specialties)?

Especially as surgical training has become more uniform, I would like to see ABPS certification change. I think what they put people through is absolutely ludicrious:p:p:p:p:p
 
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the way we do board certification is completely ridiculous (when compared with other medical specialties)?

[peep!]

p.s., While you're compiling cases over the upcoming four+ years, don't do what I did and avoid looking at the ABPS site for half a decade only to find out they changed the requirements while you weren't paying attention. Hehhh!
 
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the way we do board certification is completely ridiculous (when compared with other medical specialties)?

Especially as surgical training has become more uniform, I would like to see ABPS certification change. I think what they put people through is absolutely ludicrious:p:p:p:p:p

100% agree. But that is why I'll sit for the ABPOPPM right after residency. Your residency exam counts as the written, you can count cases from your residency, and you can sit as soon as you graduate from residency. With these recent changes, I think that they will increase their share of members.

But like many others, I'll probably sit for the ABPS a few years later once I get all of the need cases.
 
100% agree. But that is why I'll sit for the ABPOPPM right after residency. Your residency exam counts as the written, you can count cases from your residency, and you can sit as soon as you graduate from residency. With these recent changes, I think that they will increase their share of members.

But like many others, I'll probably sit for the ABPS a few years later once I get all of the need cases.

That's a good idea to sit for the ABPOPPM right away. That way, if asked "are you Board Certified?" you can reply "yes." Some places however (such as my primary admitting hospital) ask specifically for ABPS qualification/certification.
 
That's a good idea to sit for the ABPOPPM right away. That way, if asked "are you Board Certified?" you can reply "yes." Some places however (such as my primary admitting hospital) ask specifically for ABPS qualification/certification.

That is actually why I going to to it.
 
100% agree. But that is why I'll sit for the ABPOPPM right after residency. Your residency exam counts as the written, you can count cases from your residency, and you can sit as soon as you graduate from residency. With these recent changes, I think that they will increase their share of members.

But like many others, I'll probably sit for the ABPS a few years later once I get all of the need cases.

Yeah, there's a petition going on to get ABPS to allow residents to be Board Certified right out of residency. Is there another specialty that mandates a "Board Qualified?" Why is that arcane practice still used other than to fatten the pockets of these old white guys? Can't wait until I found out more about this and call up John Edwards (haha...j/k...well, maybe...)
 
Yeah, there's a petition going on to get ABPS to allow residents to be Board Certified right out of residency. Is there another specialty that mandates a "Board Qualified?" Why is that arcane practice still used other than to fatten the pockets of these old white guys? Can't wait until I found out more about this and call up John Edwards (haha...j/k...well, maybe...)

Did you all follow that recent lawsuit in Iowa involving the ring fixator? At first there was a suggestion that the hospital was at fault for allowing a DPM who was not BC (he was BQ) to do that procedure. If a similar case were to be won, it could set an awful precedent for those who are in between Residency and BC. There would be at least a four year "Purgatory" for all BQ podiatrists.
 
That is actually why I going to to it.

My primary hospital did not specify ABPS up until 2004, IIRC. Until then they only mandated "BQ or BC." I am not sure what made them change suddenly at that point. My local insurance companies only require "BQ or BC" but do not specify from whom.

I do have colleagues from my era of training who do not have Board Cert. requirements from either their hospitals or insurance companies, so they have no mandate to become BC. Whether they should or not is another matter, but they do not have to.
 
There are many stories of DPMs who could not get hospital privileges because they were only Board Qualified -- which I agree with earlier posters, it is ridiculous. No other specialty has such a designation. It may have had an earlier purpose of preventing those who weren't so adequately trained from becoming Board Certified, but now with standardized residencies there is no point ..... it merely limits competition so the "new guy" on the block can't "compete" with the "old guy" by advertising "Board Certified Podiatrist".

You can petition all you want, most of the people who are in charge of ABPS never took the board exam anyway -- they "grandfathered in" and take a "self-assessment" test to recertify.

I'm board qualified in both ABPS and ABPOPPM.

I agree that sitting for ABPOPPM right out of residency is a good idea. Who knows, with all the ACFAS - APMA controversy, perhaps ABPOPPM will take over as the dominant board?????

LCR
 
Whats the difference being ABPS BC and ABOPPPM board certified.

And if one can get easily ABOPPM certified then why people still do ABPS thing?

Can anyone plzzzzz explain the difference between these two boards.
 
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And i was thinking if someone wants to practice podiatry in NY or Indiana. Then i guess they woudnt even have to bother for the rearfoot stuff as the state itself doesnt allows it. So why go thru all this hardship of being rearfoot certified when you will never be allowed to use it.
 
Whats the difference being ABPS BC and ABPOPPM board certified...
Basically a medicine board and a surgery board^. A pod who just has ABPOPPM cert and is not even qualified for ABPS probably did a non-surgical residency.

Medicine - American Board of Podiatric Orthopaedics and Primary Podiatric Medicine:
http://www.abpoppm.org/
You need to have two years of post-grad training (residency, fellowship, preceptorship, etc) and a total of 42 months seeing patients with the logs for the patients you've seen. The questions on this board are mostly medicine, pharm, lab, and pathology. Pods completing PMS-36 can now skip right to certification after they finish their residency training.

Surgery - American Board of Podiatric Surgery:
http://www.abps.org/
You need case logs with follow-up (which is why most residency cases don't count and you have to wait awhile after finishing training to sit for the tests). The exams are obviously mostly surgical content.

ACFAS is just a professional organization for foot and ankle surgeons:
http://www.acfas.org/
They publish a well respected journal (J Foot Ankle Surg), have CME seminars, and provide other member benefits. It's available to anyone who is both 1) ABPS qualified/certified (I believe it can be either FF or FF+RF) and 2) a member of the APMA. You can be an "associate" member of ACFAS while you are BQ, then you become a "fellow" member when you are BC.


As LCR stated, there are many DPMs who only did a 1yr residency who are certified by both boards because they were grandfathered in or passed the boards when the requirements for certification mandated less cases or years of training. Now that 2+ year residencies are the standard for all grads, the requirements have been upped.

Most of the highest trained DPMs are FACFAS, or the younger ones who recently finished training are ABPS board qualified and will become FACFAS soon. The vast majority of pod school faculty have that designation.

There are other boards and certifications for personal interest or subspecialty (chronic wound care, pod sports med, etc) within podiatry, but ABPS and ABPOPPM are the main two. Similarly, APMA (all pods) and ACFAS (surgical pods) are the main professional organizations for podiatrists.
 
Indiana doesn't allow rearfoot surgery for pods?
 
Indiana doesn't allow rearfoot surgery for pods?

Yea they do. Last I checked, the only states that don't allow pods to do rearfoot are New York, Kansas, Conneticut, and I think one of the Carolinas? There are a few other states where the law is vague or doesn't mention ankle scope.
 
you can do rearfoot and achilles stuff in New York...just no ankle surgery. I did not know there were any states still around that prohibited rearfoot (like calcaneus) surgery. And now in connecticut, they changed the law for pods for ankle work. I believe with the proper certifications and minimum residency experience, you can do ankle surgery.
 
Yeah, there's a petition going on to get ABPS to allow residents to be Board Certified right out of residency. Is there another specialty that mandates a "Board Qualified?" Why is that arcane practice still used other than to fatten the pockets of these old white guys? Can't wait until I found out more about this and call up John Edwards (haha...j/k...well, maybe...)

Because other surgical specialties understand that in order to become a surgeon you actually have to do surgery. There are still some pod programs out there that hardly let the residents hold a knife.
 
Basically a medicine board and a surgery board^. A pod who just has ABPOPPM cert and is not even qualified for ABPS probably did a non-surgical residency.

Medicine - American Board of Podiatric Orthopaedics and Primary Podiatric Medicine:
http://www.abpoppm.org/
You need to have two years of post-grad training (residency, fellowship, preceptorship, etc) and a total of 42 months seeing patients with the logs for the patients you've seen. The questions on this board are mostly medicine, pharm, lab, and pathology. Pods completing PMS-36 can now skip right to certification after they finish their residency training.

Surgery - American Board of Podiatric Surgery:
http://www.abps.org/
You need case logs with follow-up (which is why most residency cases don't count and you have to wait awhile after finishing training to sit for the tests). The exams are obviously mostly surgical content.

ACFAS is just a professional organization for foot and ankle surgeons:
http://www.acfas.org/
They publish a well respected journal (J Foot Ankle Surg), have CME seminars, and provide other member benefits. It's available to anyone who is both 1) ABPS qualified/certified (I believe it can be either FF or FF+RF) and 2) a member of the APMA. You can be an "associate" member of ACFAS while you are BQ, then you become a "fellow" member when you are BC.


As LCR stated, there are many DPMs who only did a 1yr residency who are certified by both boards because they were grandfathered in or passed the boards when the requirements for certification mandated less cases or years of training. Now that 2+ year residencies are the standard for all grads, the requirements have been upped.

Most of the highest trained DPMs are FACFAS, or the younger ones who recently finished training are ABPS board qualified and will become FACFAS soon. The vast majority of pod school faculty have that designation.

There are other boards and certifications for personal interest or subspecialty (chronic wound care, pod sports med, etc) within podiatry, but ABPS and ABPOPPM are the main two. Similarly, APMA (all pods) and ACFAS (surgical pods) are the main professional organizations for podiatrists.

Good description of the differences :thumbup:
Recently, ACFAS voted to no longer require APMA membership.

http://www.podiatrym.com/search3.cfm?id=17162
 
Good description of the differences :thumbup:
Recently, ACFAS voted to no longer require APMA membership.

http://www.podiatrym.com/search3.cfm?id=17162
Yeah, there are a lot of politics going on right now. I'm nowhere near becoming a practicing pod, so I don't really know how I feel on the issue. You still do have to be an APMA member to join ACFAS, but it's optional (and encouraged) for those who renew FACFAS status.
 
Because other surgical specialties understand that in order to become a surgeon you actually have to do surgery. There are still some pod programs out there that hardly let the residents hold a knife.

If that's the case, wouldn't they supposely "fail" the certification? I mean, Board Certification is not a walk in the park and if these guys in these low level residencies don't get to hold a scapel and play handle-bar their entire 2-3 years, I would hope the Board would sniff them out.... hopefully.

Would surgical specialties look at BQ as a joke? BQ should be Passage of Part III boards, or something during residency (like the inservice examination).

What about insurance companies that demand pods to be BC in order to cover them? It's just a mess, these old white guys, holding down the young guys and gals today....
 
If that's the case, wouldn't they supposely "fail" the certification? I mean, Board Certification is not a walk in the park and if these guys in these low level residencies don't get to hold a scapel and play handle-bar their entire 2-3 years, I would hope the Board would sniff them out.... hopefully.

I am not aware of any re-certifying process where the COTH or CPME actually goes into the operating room to watch how much of the procedure the residents are doing. The other thing is that there is no strict definition of C-level cases. Some places/people say skin to skin. Others say 50% of the procedure. For a bunion when you are first starting I think the bone cut is the easiest thing and the dissection and closure takes the longest. So if you open, throw the screws, and close - since that took more time than the bone cut that the attending did (happens some places) do you log a C?

I don't think so but some people do.

Another thing - if you go to a program that does an austin/akin for every bunion w/ medial and lateral soft tissue correction regardless of need - that is just the way you do it - are you a surgeon or a technician?

Being a surgeon is not just about performing the surgery it is about problem solving and decision making as well.

I think the top programs become that way because they graduate promeninant people in the field that are able to think and are creative problem solvers. The research and publications do not hurt but that is still thinking and problem solving.

And again - everything about medicine credentially from the schools to physicians is about minimal competency. Medicine in general is a minimum competency profession.

I am not advocating that anyone do the minimum. Quite frankly I do not understand people who think that is OK. So I do not understand many of the deans of the schools who just shoot for the minimum for recertification from the AACPM/CPME.

This same problem exsists in general surgery (and all surgeries) - that you can be a terrible surgeon and become board certified.

Board certification does not mean that you are a good surgeon technically or that you get good results consistenly. It means that you have a certain number of cases and can answer questions for a test oral and written.
 
this was in podiatry management email recently. It is just another example of those in the profession expecially within the politics not understanding that it does not matter if go to school in trump towers. It is the quality of the education and the quality of the students admitted that matters.

RE: OCPM’s New Facility
From: Hal Ornstein, DPM

I had the great pleasure of visiting the new home of the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine (OCPM) this week to speak with the students. As a graduate of OCPM Class of 1987, I was beaming with pride getting a tour of the new facilities. The layout of the school is remarkable, with top technology to help the students maximize their education and the décor is beautiful. This Is another feather in the cap for our profession in the eyes of premed advisors, the allopathic medical world and the community-at-large. I implore all to visit OCPM if you are in the Cleveland area. Congratulations to all who worked to make this a reality.
 
Feli is right. It should be the certification exam that determines whether one can becomes BC, not a certain amount of time. Remember - even if you do 300 cases your first year out - you CAN'T GET CERTIFIED!

Everyone should be allowed to take the written/oral exam upon graduation of residency. If you aren't competent - the exam should be strong enough to fail you.

CPME standardized the residencies - ABPS was a big part of this standardization - dictating what they wanted for residency training. Why then, does ABPS distrust the residency training process? Other specialties don't have these complicated/long requirements.

There are many problems that you'll have when you are BQ and not BC. (Krabmas you will see when you apply for privileges and to get on insurance plans -- you'll say "but I did a 3 year surgical residency", they'll say "too bad, you're board qualified not certified" and then you'll have to take a 5-7 year moratorium on doing complicated surgeries)

This is important to all of the fresh graduates of CPME standardized programs to call for an end to this non-sense. Call for an end to the ABPS "self assessment (fake test)" for grandfathered members. Why should we take a test and be held to a different standard than them (because they're in charge -- that's why!) I say end the DOUBLE STANDARD!

LCR
 
Now ABPS Diplomats don't even require a "passing" score on their self-assessment test!

FROM ABPS WEBSITE:

For Diplomates taking the 2007 Self-Assessment Examination.
Please note that the Board of Directors at its November meeting modified language in the ABPS 111-2007. The directors removed the requirement that Diplomates achieve a "passing score". However, the Board expects Diplomates to acknowledge their commitment to maintaining their certification by approaching the examination seriously and completing all 100 items as though one must pass the examination
 
Feli is right. It should be the certification exam that determines whether one can becomes BC, not a certain amount of time. Remember - even if you do 300 cases your first year out - you CAN'T GET CERTIFIED!

Everyone should be allowed to take the written/oral exam upon graduation of residency. If you aren't competent - the exam should be strong enough to fail you.

CPME standardized the residencies - ABPS was a big part of this standardization - dictating what they wanted for residency training. Why then, does ABPS distrust the residency training process? Other specialties don't have these complicated/long requirements.

There are many problems that you'll have when you are BQ and not BC. (Krabmas you will see when you apply for privileges and to get on insurance plans -- you'll say "but I did a 3 year surgical residency", they'll say "too bad, you're board qualified not certified" and then you'll have to take a 5-7 year moratorium on doing complicated surgeries)

This is important to all of the fresh graduates of CPME standardized programs to call for an end to this non-sense. Call for an end to the ABPS "self assessment (fake test)" for grandfathered members. Why should we take a test and be held to a different standard than them (because they're in charge -- that's why!) I say end the DOUBLE STANDARD!

LCR

Preach on brother-man.
 
...Remember - even if you do 300 cases your first year out - you CAN'T GET CERTIFIED!...

...you'll say "but I did a 3 year surgical residency", they'll say "too bad, you're board qualified not certified" and then you'll have to take a 5-7 year moratorium on doing complicated surgeries...
Out of curiousity, do cases done during a fellowship training count for ABPS? You are at an approved healthcare facility with privileges. Assuming you were primary surgeon, saw the patients pre-op, and saw them at follow-ups... then those cases should count, right?

I'm sure I'm missing something, but it seems that after residency and a fellowship, you'd be 4 years from graduation. As soon as you got the cases, you could apply, right? If the fellowship cases counted, you could probably submit the required 90 cases and get certified within a year or two?
 
Yes, fellowship cases count if you are primary surgeon (which may not be many since you would also have to be the "billing" surgeon and you won't be on any insurance plans since you're just out of residency and you're only BQ).

But what about most of our colleagues who are well-trained surgeons but don't have this fellowship year?

Why should they be set back professionally and financially by having a designation (BQ) that other specialties don't have and hospitals and insurance companies don't understand. Everyone else is either Board Eligible or Board Certified.

Did you see the malpractice case in Eastern Iowa against THE HOSPITAL who gave a BQ podiatrist privileges. The plaintiffs attorney claimed that the BQ podiatrist should not have been granted privileges by the hospital since he was not qualified to do the surgery. The hospital won this case, luckily. Already a lawsuit over this, what next? Will hospitals be willing to take the risk of privileging BQ podiatrists if it means potential lawsuits?
 
That clears things up a lot^. Thanks.

I agree totally that it's a wacky system. We have DPMs grandfathered in with full FF+RF certification while some PMS-36 grads who have already done twice the number of procedures are stuck waiting around "qualified."

I could not find the Iowa case. I looked on PodiatryM, but I just found the Kevin Smith testimony stuff which didn't seem to be the BQ hospital case you guys are referring to.
 
I could not find the Iowa case. I looked on PodiatryM, but I just found the Kevin Smith testimony stuff which didn't seem to be the BQ hospital case you guys are referring to.

Malpractice Case Challenges IA Podiatrist’s Qualifications

Daniel Day, of Dubuque, IA seeks monetary damages from Finley hospital, alleging it was negligent in granting staff privileges to Dr. Michael Arnz, a Dubuque podiatrist. Arnz was once a party to the case, but he has since been released following a confidential settlement.

The podiatrist used a circular frame device in July 2004 to stabilize Day's foot following a surgical procedure to correct a foot deformity caused by Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease, a neurological disorder that can cause damage in the extremities.

"Arnz was not board-certified in podiatry at this time," said Day’s attorney Timothy S. White, who asked the jury to consider evidence that Finley did not adequately ensure Arnz was competent to perform a procedure involving a circular frame, a fixation device.

Finley's attorney, Connie M. Alt told the jury Arnz was well-qualified at the time of the Day surgery and that he was "board-qualified," a distinction that indicates the podiatrist had taken a written examination but not an oral examination before a certification board.

Source: Erik Hogstrom, Telegraph Herald [12/6/07]

From Telegraph Herald Online
Friday, December 14, 2007
Finley CEO explains credential process[/B]
Hospital being sued by man who alleges negligence regarding his treatment
John Knox drew the distinction between "qualified" and "competent" physicians when he testified Thursday during a trial involving The Finley Hospital's process of granting medical credentials.
Knox, Finley's president and chief executive officer, told a Dubuque County jury that the hospital grants credentials to allow for "qualified physicians" to join the medical staff. That process is not intended to ensure competency.
"Competency is something you have to determine after assessing (the physician's) practice over a period of time," Knox said.
Daniel Day, of Dubuque, seeks monetary damages from the hospital, alleging it was negligent when it granted credentials to Dr. Michael Arnz, a Dubuque podiatrist. Day developed a chronic bone infection subsequent to a surgical procedure during which metal pins were inserted into his tibia. The pins held in place a supportive device called a circular frame.
Day's attorney, Timothy S. White, of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, noted that Knox drew a distinction between qualifications and competency of physicians practicing at the hospital.
"When the hospital runs ads, do you say: 'Come to Finley Hospital, our physicians are qualified but we're not sure they're competent?'"
"We don't do either," Knox said. "We don't advertise they are qualified or competent."
"Don't you think the public would like to know if a physician is competent?" White said.
"I absolutely think the public should know, but they don't do that by contacting the hospital and asking our opinion," Knox said.
Earlier Thursday, Day testified that he had developed an infection at the site of a peripherally inserted central catheter line, which had been used to supply antibiotics to his bloodstream in a bid to treat his bone infection in the fall of 2004.
Finley's attorney, Connie M. Alt, of Cedar Rapids, noted during her cross examination of Day that he declined a physician's recommendation for two additional weeks of intravenous treatment with antibiotics, even though the doctor warned that declining that treatment in favor of oral antibiotics would lower the success rate of fighting the infection.
"I was as sick as a dog and I had had enough," Day said .
Knox testified that physicians complete an application form to begin a multiple-step process to receive medical credentials.
Knox testified a medical staff coordinator verifies the information supplied to the hospital.
Knox is scheduled to return to the witness stand today

From Des Moines Register:
12/23/07
DUBUQUE
Infection-case jurors: Hospital not negligent
Jurors have decided that a Dubuque hospital was not negligent in a case that involved a patient who developed a bone infection after surgery.

Daniel Day of Dubuque alleged Finley Hospital should not have granted credentials to Dr. Michael Arnz, a Dubuque podiatrist.

Day developed a bone infection after Arnz performed surgery with a device called a circular frame, which necessitated the insertion of surgical pins through Day's right tibia.

Arnz agreed earlier to a confidential settlement.

Day had sought about $4 million from Finley for loss of earnings and future medical expenses.

Jurors reached the verdict Friday.
 
Feli is right. It should be the certification exam that determines whether one can becomes BC, not a certain amount of time. Remember - even if you do 300 cases your first year out - you CAN'T GET CERTIFIED!

Everyone should be allowed to take the written/oral exam upon graduation of residency. If you aren't competent - the exam should be strong enough to fail you.

CPME standardized the residencies - ABPS was a big part of this standardization - dictating what they wanted for residency training. Why then, does ABPS distrust the residency training process? Other specialties don't have these complicated/long requirements.

There are many problems that you'll have when you are BQ and not BC. (Krabmas you will see when you apply for privileges and to get on insurance plans -- you'll say "but I did a 3 year surgical residency", they'll say "too bad, you're board qualified not certified" and then you'll have to take a 5-7 year moratorium on doing complicated surgeries)

This is important to all of the fresh graduates of CPME standardized programs to call for an end to this non-sense. Call for an end to the ABPS "self assessment (fake test)" for grandfathered members. Why should we take a test and be held to a different standard than them (because they're in charge -- that's why!) I say end the DOUBLE STANDARD!

LCR


I am not sure why you pointed this to me. I never said I supported any of this. But there are reasons why they do things the way they do.

#1 and only - pods do not trust other pods.

This all starts with schools letting in unqualified students then graduating them...
 

"Arnz was not board-certified in podiatry at this time," said Day’s attorney Timothy S. White, who asked the jury to consider evidence that Finley did not adequately ensure Arnz was competent to perform a procedure involving a circular frame, a fixation device.

Finley's attorney, Connie M. Alt told the jury Arnz was well-qualified at the time of the Day surgery and that he was "board-qualified," a distinction that indicates the podiatrist had taken a written examination but not an oral examination before a certification board.



People seem to harp on this alot.


Board certified does not make you competent to perform surgery it just assists you to get privledges from hospitals, surgi centers and insurance companies. It is not like one day you can't do surgey then the next day you go take a written or oral test and all the sudden you can waH lah perform surgery.

Just to get rid of misconceptions - I do plan to become board certified and play by the rules.
 
this was in podiatry management email recently. It is just another example of those in the profession expecially within the politics not understanding that it does not matter if go to school in trump towers. It is the quality of the education and the quality of the students admitted that matters.

RE: OCPM’s New Facility
From: Hal Ornstein, DPM

I had the great pleasure of visiting the new home of the Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine (OCPM) this week to speak with the students. As a graduate of OCPM Class of 1987, I was beaming with pride getting a tour of the new facilities. The layout of the school is remarkable, with top technology to help the students maximize their education and the décor is beautiful. This Is another feather in the cap for our profession in the eyes of premed advisors, the allopathic medical world and the community-at-large. I implore all to visit OCPM if you are in the Cleveland area. Congratulations to all who worked to make this a reality.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you taking a jab at Dr. Ornstein?
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you taking a jab at Dr. Ornstein?

Not specifically at him. He is a very nice person.

It is just another case of people focusing on the wrong things in the profession.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you taking a jab at Dr. Ornstein?

RE: OCPM’s New Facility (Hal Ornstein, DPM)
From: Simon Young, DPM

You can lead a student to great facilities but it's up to the student to utilize and benefit. I feel learning can be done under any circumstances so long as the "colleague in training" is motivated to succeed and learn.

Nevertheless, It's wonderful to see our profession getting adequate funding to create a state-of-the-art learning facility.


I am not the only one that feels this way.
 
RE: OCPM’s New Facility (Hal Ornstein, DPM)
From: Simon Young, DPM

You can lead a student to great facilities but it's up to the student to utilize and benefit. I feel learning can be done under any circumstances so long as the "colleague in training" is motivated to succeed and learn.

Nevertheless, It's wonderful to see our profession getting adequate funding to create a state-of-the-art learning facility.


I am not the only one that feels this way.

Having best facilities and resources always helps student. Sometimes even worse of the worse students get benefitted by having latest infrastructure and technology.

Scholl's anatomy labs have anatomy manuals in format of a software. Whenever we need to access something in middle of a dissection. We dont need to waste time by searching or going thru that specific topic on a book or worrying abt greasing it or spoiling it. We just click and get the info. Its fast and easy. In that way, we are way ahead then our counterparts in some colleges where students have to sit for 2-4 hrs reading the whole procedure thoroughly and then coming to lab. this way saves time and improves productivity and interests. now we are able to cover more areas in less time and review what we have done. where as without the help of these software it wud easily take an extra 30-40 minutes in searching on books ,etc.

The Ti-89 calculator is another classic example of technology helping the students. Now an average student doesnt have to waste his precious time in examination in calculating some primitive formula to get answer and then use that answer to put in the specific subject formula he is using. Now he can just put the numbers in calculator get the answer and then use that answer for whatever other calcaulations he need. Or else in india or China they still use hand method and it takes hrs for students to solve just one problem.

OCPMs new facilities will deifnetly help students. In one study then found out that by having just wireless internet on campus vs wired internet the capacity to do research increased among students. Now if iam sitting in biochem class and professor speaks abt certain drug or therapy. if we have wireless internet. i can quicky go online and satisfy my cuoristy compared to a wired building in which i have to wait for the whole class to end and then go to library then search on net. in the mean time i might even lose interest and never find that thing.

Ofcourse these are all for students who wanna benefit. if someone is a ***** and is in no mood of studies then nothing can help him. and i doubt someone who pays $20000-30000 per year by taking a loan is really in a mood to goof around.
 
Podiatry school business is like any other business. the posher and hitech the place the better it is respected. They say first impression is the last impression. When students will see th new OCPM facilities. they will see what pod schools are and how advanced they are. and they will get a good impression as pointed out by that doctor. This is an excellent marketting stratergy. The more advanced and posh our schools get. the more it will interest serious premeds. if a school is in shambles in the middle of ghetto with crime at top and water leaking from rooms and one room library. No matter how good that school is, no one will ever bother to go there.
 
Having best facilities and resources always helps student...

...Scholl's anatomy labs have anatomy manuals in format of a software. Whenever we need to access something in middle of a dissection. We dont need to waste time by searching or going thru that specific topic on a book or worrying abt greasing it or spoiling it. We just click and get the info. Its fast and easy. In that way, we are way ahead then our counterparts in some colleges where students have to sit for 2-4 hrs reading the whole procedure thoroughly and then coming to lab. this way saves time and improves productivity and interests. now we are able to cover more areas in less time and review what we have done. where as without the help of these software it wud easily take an extra 30-40 minutes in searching on books ,etc...
There is a flip side to everything, though. Will you have a LCD screen to pinpoint a structure you can't find in surgery? The "searching on books" will never really die, and it's always essential IMO. You need to do your homework before you go in the lab. You might prefer the software, but you probably don't have it at home and certainly won't have it in the OR, radiology conference, grand rounds, etc.

Don't burn your anatomy textbooks, foot model, or pocket atlas just yet. ;)
Books always seem pretty slow if you've barely taken the shrink wrap off, but you can navigate very quickly, take them anywhere, and promptly find what you need once you get familiar with them.

...I agree with what krabmas said. Facilities help, but interested and talented students are where it begins. Also, faculty who are going to spend the time to help you learn, find ways to keep students interested, and be available are also key. The people in the building matter a lot more than the gadgets and structures.
 
...When students will see th new OCPM facilities. they will see what pod schools are and how advanced they are. and they will get a good impression as pointed out by that doctor. This is an excellent marketting stratergy. The more advanced and posh our schools get. the more it will interest serious premeds. if a school is in shambles in the middle of ghetto with crime at top and water leaking from rooms and one room library. No matter how good that school is, no one will ever bother to go there.
Yes, but another part of the equation is location and integration.

I'm not sure that a school out by itself and miles from other universities can be such a "feather in the cap for our profession in the eyes of premed advisors, the allopathic medical world and the community." Don't you think that being on a recognized local campus with some premed advisors teaching histo, biochem, etc would possibly catch the eye of premeds and the student community a bit more?

Isn't the best way to increase our profession's respect among the MD/DO community to get our students into the major hospitals on rotations (no small feat with all the paperwork and politics)? That is usually a bit easier when the university already has hospital relations for med, nursing, PA, etc students at the hospitals. Also, having those clinical students well prepared for those rotations is big, and that simply is a result of getting good students and having faculty to make sure they have learned what they need to know. That makes the most sense to me. When I'm on medicine rotations or non-pod surg rotations, attendings care mostly about what I know and how interested I am. Strangely, they haven't asked me to provide them pictures of my gold-plated school yet... :laugh:
 
Yes, fellowship cases count if you are primary surgeon

Not to dispute Dr. Rogers, but ABPS no longer accepts Fellowship cases:

"Again in 2008, ABPS will not be accepting cases performed during residency or fellowship for consideration."

http://www.abps.org/news.asp

ABPS changes their requirements once in awhile. I was foolish to not check their requirements annually and got burned when it came time to submit my cases. D'oh!

Nat
 
Board certified does not make you competent to perform surgery it just assists you to get privledges from hospitals, surgi centers and insurance companies. It is not like one day you can't do surgey then the next day you go take a written or oral test and all the sudden you can waH lah perform surgery.

We all know this is a true statement, but the general public looks for Board Certified status as a way to judge our competency. In the Board Qualified interim there is a question mark, and you will lose some business because of it. Unfortunately our BQ status can be several years, during which time you will be trying to build your practice.

Now if your hospital decides to only permit fully Board Certified doctors on staff, then you would pretty much be dead in the water before even starting. You have to be BC before you work there. You can't become BC until you work there. It's a big, fat Catch-22. Hopefully that situation never happens. Thank god the Iowa case found in favor of the defense.

To confound matters, other specialties use a Board Eligible status. Does anyone know the difference between Board Eligible and Board Qualified? Most of the general public does not. Confusing, eh?

Nat
 
Not to dispute Dr. Rogers, but ABPS no longer accepts Fellowship cases:

"Again in 2008, ABPS will not be accepting cases performed during residency or fellowship for consideration."

http://www.abps.org/news.asp

ABPS changes their requirements once in awhile. I was foolish to not check their requirements annually and got burned when it came time to submit my cases. D'oh!

Nat

Dr. Nat, I think this only applies to "CPME approved fellowships" which there are only 6-10 in the US. My fellowship with David Armstrong was not CPME approved, and I was basically a quasi-attending-fellow-??? I did cases in my own name, but couldn't bill for them (for the above reasons, BQ etc.)

Luckily, I'm at a great place now, where the CMO of the hospital is a DPM. I was given full privileges and as part of a hospital practice, I automatically get on the insurance plans.

But, my friends and colleagues around the country are having tremendous problems. That's what gets me fired up.

I think we're on the same page on everything else though. How many years are you out of residency?

LCR
 
Dr. Nat, I think this only applies to "CPME approved fellowships" which there are only 6-10 in the US. My fellowship with David Armstrong was not CPME approved, and I was basically a quasi-attending-fellow-??? I did cases in my own name, but couldn't bill for them (for the above reasons, BQ etc.)

Luckily, I'm at a great place now, where the CMO of the hospital is a DPM. I was given full privileges and as part of a hospital practice, I automatically get on the insurance plans.

But, my friends and colleagues around the country are having tremendous problems. That's what gets me fired up.

I think we're on the same page on everything else though. How many years are you out of residency?

LCR

So some Fellowship cases are acceptable; I stand corrected.

My primary admitting facility is unfortunately not so DPM-friendly.

I graduated from the Tucson VA Residency in 2000, the year Armstrong joined the staff.

Nat
 
Dr. Nat, I think this only applies to "CPME approved fellowships" which there are only 6-10 in the US. My fellowship with David Armstrong was not CPME approved, and I was basically a quasi-attending-fellow-??? I did cases in my own name, but couldn't bill for them (for the above reasons, BQ etc.)

Luckily, I'm at a great place now, where the CMO of the hospital is a DPM. I was given full privileges and as part of a hospital practice, I automatically get on the insurance plans.

But, my friends and colleagues around the country are having tremendous problems. That's what gets me fired up.

I think we're on the same page on everything else though. How many years are you out of residency?

LCR


Hey has he gained any weight? he was looking sick, last time i saw him. All that diet coke isn't good for his figure.
 
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the way we do board certification is completely ridiculous (when compared with other medical specialties)?

Especially as surgical training has become more uniform, I would like to see ABPS certification change. I think what they put people through is absolutely ludicrious:p:p:p:p:p

Agreed, but remember, in my opinion, podiatry needs 1000 tons of presidents, secretaries and other pseudo leardership positions in order to properly manage the ~1300 tons of actual podiatrists.

But the key is to always remember that the taters always need their tots.

Without these positions, what would all them tatters do with themselves?

Heaven forbid them to serve their communities as volunteers w/o all the status of an official cool sounding title and some other podiatrist to 'delegate' in some form. So many "natural" leaders and so few to lead. Every spring I warn all pods to watch their back because some new grad will be gunning for their spot on some committee or a spot in the podiatry "limon" light.

My my.
 
So suppose i somehow purchased my own Surgery Center attached to my clinic. Do i still have to wait for my BC status to do surgeries. Or since its my own center and iam the boss. I can do what ever i want :D
 
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