Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

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[dtrack22]

Imagine if PA and NP organizations operated like Podiatry and tried to limit their own members’ scope of practice through boards, state licensing, hospital bylaws/credentialing, etc.

We are literally the only medical specialty trying to prevent colleagues from practicing all aspects of said speciality.

 

[Feli]

Imagine if PA and NP organizations operated like Podiatry and tried to limit their own members’ scope of practice through boards, state licensing, hospital bylaws/credentialing, etc.

We are literally the only medical specialty trying to prevent colleagues from practicing all aspects of said speciality.

Yeah, it's a little quirky.
NP and PA aren't specialists, though. I don't know if we can compare to any docs who don't do residency and specialize at least somewhat. I think MD/DO or at least dent are probably the comparisons? I think residency is still uber rare for pharma, PT, chiro, optometrist, etc?

I think a lot of the mistrust and caution in podiatry has to do with the fact that our training and scope has advanced soooo fast. There is almost a fear of pullback. Even 50 years ago, it was super rare for DPMs to do RRA... if it happened, probably at smallish hospitals (that were the old rock star residencies). It was almost unheard of for DPMs to do much surgery at all in major hospitals until ~25yrs ago in a lot of places (still not happening everywhere, esp RRA). Residencies have also moved from DO and VA and small hospitals to more mainstream ones and even a few Univ ones, but it has been gradual.

It would be awesome if 100% of DPMs could do a Lapidus fairly well or excellent quality, but that's just not how it is. Many don't even have privileges to do a plantar fasciotomy or didn't train to do a cheilectomy or toe amp. Some are fine admitting and med mgmt or having intelligent convo with ID and Vasc and IM and etc... and others wouldn't know where to start on any of that.

At the end of the day, every profession polices itself, governs itself.
As much as we gripe about ortho or academic hospitals or whatever, podiatry limits itself more than anything else outside does.

I think the big fear is that if all DPMs could do everything below the knee (up to state scope limit) and the DPMs doing good stuff in hospitals didn't screen and restrict staff based on training, there would be a lot of bad results and overall hospital and state restrictions would follow?

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Feli made one of most important points (that people forget) in podiatry, "It was almost unheard of for DPMs to do much surgery at all in major hospitals until ~25yrs ago in a lot of places". Think about that ALL ABFAS/APMA/CPME "members". Again, let that set in everyone.

Who do you think fought like no other to allow this to occur? Yes, it was me and my colleagues. We fought like no other for other DPMs to operate. First for toes, then ankles. Think we did a pretty good job of getting podiatry to the operating room.

Now......25 years later.... Does the APMA/CPME/ABFAS care what we have to say....ABSOLUTELY NOT. They treat us like dinosaurs and don't care.

Remember everyone, my class fought hard to get DPMs where they are now. What does APMA/ABFAS/CPME do - they divide us and make us fight each other within. It's so sad and sick. That's why we (yes us stupid old dinosaurs) will fight like no other again to help avoid the CPME and ABFAS divide this profession hiding under the "safety net" Does the professionnot realize we don't buy that argument anymore.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Furthermore if this is gonna truly be the CPME and APMA's stance (bow down to the almighty ABFAS Only for surgery) when are they gonna allow some PSR 12 and PSR 24's again?

You can't have everyone doing 3 year surgical residencies then tell them they can't operate without ABFAS case diversity.

Anyone ever wonder why the APMA/CPME/ABFAS were so freaked out by this CAQ issue? Because it eats into their profit. Have you ever seen such a coordinated hit job with apma/abfas/cpme against the ABAPM?

But hey guys, you are untouchable right? I'm sure its all legit? Keep driving the car off the cliff CPME/APMA....do what your friends tell you at the ABFAS! Ohhh, that's right, they are all "independent"!!!!!

 

[newfeet]

Yeah, it's a little quirky.
NP and PA aren't specialists, though. I don't know if we can compare to any docs who don't do residency and specialize at least somewhat. I think MD/DO or at least dent are probably the comparisons? I think residency is still uber rare for pharma, PT, chiro, optometrist, etc?

I think a lot of the mistrust and caution in podiatry has to do with the fact that our training and scope has advanced soooo fast. There is almost a fear of pullback. Even 50 years ago, it was super rare for DPMs to do RRA... if it happened, probably at smallish hospitals (that were the old rock star residencies). It was almost unheard of for DPMs to do much surgery at all in major hospitals until ~25yrs ago in a lot of places (still not happening everywhere, esp RRA). Residencies have also moved from DO and VA and small hospitals to more mainstream ones and even a few Univ ones, but it has been gradual.

It would be awesome if 100% of DPMs could do a Lapidus fairly well or excellent quality, but that's just not how it is. Many don't even have privileges to do a plantar fasciotomy or didn't train to do a cheilectomy or toe amp. Some are fine admitting and med mgmt or having intelligent convo with ID and Vasc and IM and etc... and others wouldn't know where to start on any of that.

At the end of the day, every profession polices itself, governs itself.
As much as we gripe about ortho or academic hospitals or whatever, podiatry limits itself more than anything else outside does.

I think the big fear is that if all DPMs could do everything below the knee (up to state scope limit) and the DPMs doing good stuff in hospitals didn't screen and restrict staff based on training, there would be a lot of bad results and overall hospital and state restrictions would follow?

NP pre specialize with the masters that they do. Family, peds, psych.

Are people pushing to have the scope up to the knee? 👀

 

[newfeet]

Furthermore if this is gonna truly be the CPME and APMA's stance (bow down to the almighty ABFAS Only for surgery) when are they gonna allow some PSR 12 and PSR 24's again?

You can't have everyone doing 3 year surgical residencies then tell them they can't operate without ABFAS case diversity.

Anyone ever wonder why the APMA/CPME/ABFAS were so freaked out by this CAQ issue? Because it eats into their profit. Have you ever seen such a coordinated hit job with apma/abfas/cpme against the ABAPM?

But hey guys, you are untouchable right? I'm sure its all legit? Keep driving the car off the cliff CPME/APMA....do what your friends tell you at the ABFAS! Ohhh, that's right, they are all "independent"!!!!!

The 3 years mandate is the 3 year mandate. When I was looking at residency I put a two year residency as my top choice because I was not interested in RRA but my year was when the change over from PMS-24 to PMSR started. My co resident chose to leave with the PMS-24 and I stayed to get the PMSR without RRA. It was a good decision for me because I was able to get ABPM almost right away.

Either way the residency was run by a director with only one year of residency. Same residency eventually got the RRA added. Still run by the same guy.

The old guys are still in charge but that won’t last forever that change is coming with time.

 

[Pronation]

The old guys are still in charge but that won’t last forever that change is coming with time.

So what I'm hearing is that we need five year residencies now!

 

[newfeet]

So what I'm hearing is that we need five year residencies now!

👀 I can see this happening. Followed by fellowship of course.

 

[de Ribas]

3 years is more than enough for just the foot and ankle. Adding time won't help with garbage quality. Instead of adding years to residency or fellowships, focus should be on high quality during 3 years. Orthos spend 5 years but that's whole body. Why do we need 3+1 or 4+1 for just the foot? Because most residencies are poor quality?

 

[DPM TRUTH]

The 3 year mandate is propaganda for the podiatry schools to lure in more students. Everyone at CPME knows it. 60% of the PM&S-36 programs do not meet the minimum case requirements.

But CPME/APMA/ABFAS want to act like this doesn't happen. Prob the 1st time CPME is hearing about this, right?

But instead of addressing the real issues, CPME/ABFAS/APMA wants to divide us, that's how they make $$$. When was the last time an independent party audited abfas/cpme? ABFAS mavericks, you guys cool with an audit. Of course not.

It's "the end of the world" if 3 year trained (ABPM boarded) dpm do toes and bunions. .....but they could give a crap about 60% of their programs not meeting PSR 12 requirements. But, but, but public safety. It's called picking winners and loosers.

 

[wakaflocka88]

3 years is more than enough for just the foot and ankle. Adding time won't help with garbage quality. Instead of adding years to residency or fellowships, focus should be on high quality during 3 years. Orthos spend 5 years but that's whole body. Why do we need 3+1 or 4+1 for just the foot? Because most residencies are poor quality?

Let’s not add more insult to our current fellows. They’re working really hard seeing 20+ post op patients right now, charting, being forced to submit an ACFAS manuscript on top of reading this non sense.

 

[de Ribas]

Residency training is what determines and contributes to readiness to practice surgery. So, if all residency programs are equally approved/accredited by CPME without any significant difference why there are two vastly different boards? Why all off a sudden some are ABFAS certified and some are non surgical ABPM certified even though they come from equally CPME accredited residency training? If that difference is so significant (ABPM vs ABFAs) it should be noted among residency programs.

If certain residencies are not producing ABFAS-qualified candidates, shouldn't they be distinct in some way?
If making all residencies 3 years and PMSR/RRA was to improve pod training and achieve standardization then the fact that a lot of pods can't get ABFAS certification means that goal was not achieved and a lot of residency programs are of poor quality.

Something doesn't align. Residency programs should align with standards of cerifying board their candidates are trying to achieve. Easy. Board has clear standards and expectations. Programs prepare their residents well to meet those expectations. About 90-95% of graduates should be able to be certified. If not, why then those programs are still approved?

 

[deleted1138023]

Residency training is what determines and contributes to readiness to practice surgery. So, if all residency programs are equally approved/accredited by CPME without any significant difference why there are two vastly different boards? Why all off a sudden some are ABFAS certified and some are non surgical ABPM certified even though they come from equally CPME accredited residency training? If that difference is so significant (ABPM vs ABFAs) it should be noted among residency programs.

If certain residencies are not producing ABFAS-qualified candidates, shouldn't they be distinct in some way?
If making all residencies 3 years and PMSR/RRA was to improve pod training and achieve standardization then the fact that a lot of pods can't get ABFAS certification means that goal was not achieved and a lot of residency programs are of poor quality.

Something doesn't align. Residency programs should align with standards of cerifying board their candidates are trying to achieve. Easy. Board has clear standards and expectations. Programs prepare their residents well to meet those expectations. About 90-95% of graduates should be able to be certified. If not, why then those programs are still approved?

because it's ****ing podiatry

 

[newfeet]

Residency training is what determines and contributes to readiness to practice surgery. So, if all residency programs are equally approved/accredited by CPME without any significant difference why there are two vastly different boards? Why all off a sudden some are ABFAS certified and some are non surgical ABPM certified even though they come from equally CPME accredited residency training? If that difference is so significant (ABPM vs ABFAs) it should be noted among residency programs.

If certain residencies are not producing ABFAS-qualified candidates, shouldn't they be distinct in some way?
If making all residencies 3 years and PMSR/RRA was to improve pod training and achieve standardization then the fact that a lot of pods can't get ABFAS certification means that goal was not achieved and a lot of residency programs are of poor quality.

Something doesn't align. Residency programs should align with standards of cerifying board their candidates are trying to achieve. Easy. Board has clear standards and expectations. Programs prepare their residents well to meet those expectations. About 90-95% of graduates should be able to be certified. If not, why then those programs are still approved?

Yup, the moment one residency type was created there should have been one board. It probably would have f’ed me up because I moved away from surgery but one type of residency should mean one board or a merged board that offered two certifications.

 

[air bud]

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BTC more schools fix this.

 

[icebreaker32]

There should be one board. In my opinion it should be ABFAS.

The profession decided they wanted parity with MDs and DOs and standardized residencies. They also decided we are a surgical specialty with the type of standardized residencies we have created.

All the above is nice in theory, but there are still too many problems underneath the surface.

Some of the residencies are not adequately training residents as true foot and ankle surgeons…….get rid of the subpar residencies now and cut enrollment while we have the chance with enrollment down.

If podiatrists can not pass the computer exams for ABFAS the schools need to raise the standards of who they admit. It does no good to admit students who can not pass the exams needed to practice in their profession.

Lastly how can we expect all to be surgically boarded if not all are doing much surgery when they graduate? There are not enough surgical jobs. There are too many office based chiropodist jobs with little surgery. There is not guaranteed call to get surgical cases for most podiatrists. If one starts their own practice they might not have a lot of surgery the first few years etc. As a profession we do a lot of elective surgery and we are saturated for that for the numbers of students we graduate. It sucks to have the ability and the training and not be able to do much surgery once one gets out, but it can happen in podiatry. We need to produce less podiatrists so all are able to practice as surgeons. The case list seems a hassle but orthopedic surgeons do something different, but similar.

If only 50-60 percent can become board certified by ABFAS there are serious underlying problems that need to be addressed, Blaming ABFAS is not the solution. ABFAS is not the problem either. Are they perfect? Of course not and yes some were grandfathered in.

Reduce enrollment, raise the standards of admitted students, get rid of subpar residencies. For now we need ABPM as only allowing the percentages that become certified via ABFAS is almost as bad as not having enough residencies. You can call it two career paths. ABPM might be backup option, but no matter what you consider it, we need it until we fix our problems…..which could be decades.

In the meantime…….open more schools, create more fellowships (they are listed as jobs if you search the internet) tweak ABPM and argue internally……yah that will solve the underlying problems.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Icebreaker...the ABFAS is not the problem? Are you serious? We're you told to say that by them? I bet you think the 4k case review is ok right?

People like icebreaker prob got grandfathered in and are afraid of what's ahead. That's okay though, keep spewing your ABFAS talking points doc. Funny how SCARED the ABFAS crowd is of the ABPM crowd. Wonder why the ABFAS crowd is so worried about this? If they were not worried why fight it.

Ever wonder why the ABFAS is so SCARED and worry about this? Lemme guess ...pt safety right!!!

 

[icebreaker32]

Icebreaker...the ABFAS is not the problem? Are you serious? We're you told to say that by them? I bet you think the 4k case review is ok right?

People like icebreaker prob got grandfathered in and are afraid of what's ahead. That's okay though, keep spewing your ABFAS talking points doc. Funny how SCARED the ABFAS crowd is of the ABPM crowd. Wonder why the ABFAS crowd is so worried about this? If they were not worried why fight it.

Ever wonder why the ABFAS is so SCARED and worry about this? Lemme guess ...pt safety right!!!

ABFAS has issues, but our profession has problems larger than ABFAS versus ABPM.

I was not grandfathered in, did a three year residency when there were not even enough residencies for everyone.

If you did a PSR 36 and did not become board certified you had no ABPM to fall back on.

For what it is worth, I do want nearly all to be board certified. So I feel we do still need ABPM for now. I also want a better job market for all. We all have our opinions, but I do not like the have and have not and I am a surgeon and you are not part of our profession.

I want to elevate the profession for all and feel reducing enrollment is the answer. Granted it will not happen voluntarily from the schools. Maybe you feel ABPM is the solution.....not me. The job market/saturation and training are not better just because you add a CAQ.

 

[Feli]

Uro, ENT plastics, OB, derm, ortho, etc etc don't have a 'backup' board. They have one. I just picked a few MD residencies that are reasonably similar to podiatry in that they're procedure specialties, mostly outpatients. All of those have a board qual in residency, then case review or oral or case exams (or combo of those) for board cert after some time into practice.

If an OB can't pass American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology, there is no 'alternate' or 'backup' recognized board option. There are also no fake boards I'm aware of or which the OB that I asked (who helps credentials all specialties) knew of.

I agree that podiatry currently needs a backup recognized board. Our training has changed fast and continues to evolve. It will get more uniform, but right now it's simply not there. ABPM serves a valuable niche. The fact that many residency programs consistently crush in-training ABFAS and pass BQ while other programs really struggle and many have almost zero ABFAS BQ pass is testament to that.

ABPM has made huge strides over ABPOPPM and of course the fake boards in podiatry, but this was a mistake on the CAQ surgery thing. It was a power play, it will clearly fail based on responses so far.... so, regroup and keep improving. All that we can do.

I agree long term goal is one podiatry board cert, or dual training tracks: basic and surgical (a la dental). Right now, despite what we might do with naming residencies, we still kinda have two tracks - but without actually having two tracks. Changing residency credentials didn't change case volume or academics or results. Educational improvements are always the answer... but qualitynot quantity of DPMs.

 

[newfeet]

Uro, ENT plastics, OB, derm, ortho, etc etc don't have a 'backup' board. They have one. I just picked a few MD residencies that are reasonably similar to podiatry in that they're procedure specialties, mostly outpatients. All of those have a board qual in residency, then case review or oral or case exams (or combo of those) for board cert after some time into practice.

If an OB can't pass American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology, there is no 'alternate' or 'backup' recognized board option. There are also no fake boards I'm aware of or which the OB that I asked (who helps credentials all specialties) knew of.

I agree that podiatry currently needs a backup recognized board. Our training has changed fast and continues to evolve. It will get more uniform, but right now it's simply not there. ABPM serves a valuable niche. The fact that many residency programs consistently crush in-training ABFAS and pass BQ while other programs really struggle and many have almost zero ABFAS BQ pass is testament to that.

ABPM has made huge strides over ABPOPPM and of course the fake boards in podiatry, but this was a mistake on the CAQ surgery thing. It was a power play, it will clearly fail based on responses so far.... so, regroup and keep improving. All that we can do.

I agree long term goal is one podiatry board cert, or dual training tracks: basic and surgical (a la dental). Right now, despite what we might do with naming residencies, we still kinda have two tracks - but without actually having two tracks. Changing residency credentials didn't change case volume or academics or results. Educational improvements are always the answer... but qualitynot quantity of DPMs.

ABPM was testing the limits of the CAQs. No one was going to make a stink about wound care or sports medicine.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they are allowed to do all the non surgical CAQs they want but surgery will be off limits once CPME does their thing.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

So funny, tons and tons of post about this topic but still no MAVERICKS from ABFAS or CPME or APMA weighing in on the question at hand. Focus ABFAS/CPME/APMA. Focus for once. I know it's hard.

Please, can someone from ABFAS/CPME/APMA please tell us all why it's ok for some who NEVER did a surgical residency to be board certified in foot surgery.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering how CPME/APMA/ABFAS is PROTECTING public safety by ALLOWING this exception. Isn't this dangerous and misleading? Isn't this borderline fraud? Your podiatrist "knew the right people" and got through. If you didn't "know the right people" they failed you. Anyone want to dispute this, I have proof I can post for EVERYTHING I'm saying.

This just shows the fraud and abuse in our leadership. They say out of one corner of their mouth "it's all about public safety. Out of the other corner, they won't respond.

Come on ABFAS/CPME/APMA....stop deflecting and answer the question. Again for the ABFAS/CPME/APMA crowd:

Why did people who didn't complete a surgical residency get SPECIAL TREATMENT and get boarded in foot surgery but the ABFAS? Shouldn't these people have to go through the process again FAIRLY like the rest of us?

In case the ABFAS/CPME/APMA missed this, let me ask again:

Why did people who didn't complete a surgical residency get SPECIAL TREATMENT and get boarded in foot surgery bt the ABFAS?

Strange no one from ABFAS/APMA/CPME can answer this question huh? Why? Don't want anyone else to know about this? Why not?

What happens when 500+ PM&S-36 trained residents (who all feel they were treated unfairly during the ABFAS process) come together and have someone like us fighting for them that know about the fraud and abuse? All fantasy, right ABFAS/CPME/APMA. The people you fail unfairly (and try to extort 4k for case review review) are all coming together and you don't even know it. They are mad, angry and have family in "high positions". Stay tuned for more soon!!!!

 

[AttackNME]

So funny, tons and tons of post about this topic but still no MAVERICKS from ABFAS or CPME or APMA weighing in on the question at hand. Focus ABFAS/CPME/APMA. Focus for once. I know it's hard.

Please, can someone from ABFAS/CPME/APMA please tell us all why it's ok for some who NEVER did a surgical residency to be board certified in foot surgery.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering how CPME/APMA/ABFAS is PROTECTING public safety by ALLOWING this exception. Isn't this dangerous and misleading? Isn't this borderline fraud? Your podiatrist "knew the right people" and got through. If you didn't "know the right people" they failed you. Anyone want to dispute this, I have proof I can post for EVERYTHING I'm saying.

This just shows the fraud and abuse in our leadership. They say out of one corner of their mouth "it's all about public safety. Out of the other corner, they won't respond.

Come on ABFAS/CPME/APMA....stop deflecting and answer the question. Again for the ABFAS/CPME/APMA crowd:

Why did people who didn't complete a surgical residency get SPECIAL TREATMENT and get boarded in foot surgery but the ABFAS? Shouldn't these people have to go through the process again FAIRLY like the rest of us?

In case the ABFAS/CPME/APMA missed this, let me ask again:

Why did people who didn't complete a surgical residency get SPECIAL TREATMENT and get boarded in foot surgery bt the ABFAS?

Strange no one from ABFAS/APMA/CPME can answer this question huh? Why? Don't want anyone else to know about this? Why not?

What happens when 500+ PM&S-36 trained residents (who all feel they were treated unfairly during the ABFAS process) come together and have someone like us fighting for them that know about the fraud and abuse? All fantasy, right ABFAS/CPME/APMA. The people you fail unfairly (and try to extort 4k for case review review) are all coming together and you don't even know it. They are mad, angry and have family in "high positions". Stay tuned for more soon!!!!

I appreciate you coming here and having a voice for your generation of podiatry, I always remember our roots as a young podiatrist. I am board certified in both boards and read with interest both sides of the argument. I have not yet formulated an opinion on what should be done. I’m curious, what do you think needs to happen moving forward?

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hi attack AttackNME, thanks for the kind words. I also hold a certificate from both the ABFAS and ABPM. These types of public forums are very useful, these posts will eventually (soon) will be found by all the web searches so others can educate themselves better about podiatry. Before these forums, there was basically ZERO out there about this subject matter. Now a simple search will open the public up to "podiatry boards".

So here are some suggestions.

1.) EVERYONE that was GRANDFATHERED IN should have to pass the foot surgery test (as it stands post 2020). Give them 7 years to pass. Allow them to stay certified for 7 years, if they don't pass after 7 years let them stayed BQ for life (most don't have 7 years left of practice). This will illiminate the GRANFATHERED IN unfairness.

2.) Get rid of the "foot and ankle" certificate. Effective immediately, all the foot and ankle crowd become instantly boarded in FOOT SURGERY ONLY.

ABFAS/CPME/APMA.....please, stop embarrassing yourselves using "public safety" as the umbrella for EVERYTHING. if they actually cared about public safety they would not LIE to the public about this foot and ankle garbage. 99% of the people with a foot and ankle certificate NEVER touched an ankle. But FOOT AND ANKLE sounds sexy for the APMA/CPME/ABFAS leadership. Isn't it great to make up the rules as you go. The ONLY DPMs that should even mention ankles are RRA certified DPMs post 2015. Period.

3.) Change the whole case review process. INCLUDE a thorough review of each candidates PEER REVIEW FILE. It would not be pretty at my hospital for the ABFAS crowd. But they don't wanna to see this or they will claim it all does not happen.

Little info for the ABFAS crowd......I have documented evidence that case reviewers for the ABFAS have been written up for negligence several times via peer review files. Yes, you have people grading and judging peers that being written up for "failure to diagnose or admit". So ABFAS. AUDIT anyone who reviews cases. Do you guys think this is fair?

These are just three out of hundreds of things that could be done. Speaking with other collegues, these are the 3 main issues that anger them the most. They feel like the process is rigged against them.

If the ABFAS is so worried about loosing money to the ABPM I have a suggestion for them. Being from the Bay area, everyone should take a moment to Google the ABFAS headquarters pictures. It is such a beautiful and unessaary building. The mosaic tile on the front is absolutely gorgeous. Maybe the ABFAS can offer tours (for a fee) of their redicoulsly extravagant headquarters and charge for the tours!!! During the tour they can tell you why they need to extort that 4k from poor residents to review cases so they can have that extravagant building DOWNTOWN SF.

Does ABFAS feel ANY shame spending that kind of money on that extravagant building while charging the fees they do? How much does that mosaic tile upkeep cost ABFAS? Is this why they charge 4k for case review? We get it, no worries right ABFAS?

This is only the tip of the iceberg guys. Again, ABFAS/CPME/APMA....do you really wanna go to WAR with us? We were YOUR oral examinees at O'Hare in the 90s, we know who you are. We have great memories.

Still waiting for a response from the ABFAS. Funny how quiet they get when you ask them some simple questions. ABFAS does not do well when they get called out. Crickets. Maybe they are too busy coordinsting (with apma/cpme of course) their next hit job on the ABPM.

Who from the ABPM did APMA/CPME speak with before these statements this week. That's right, no one. Why?

 

[icebreaker32]

DPM Truth sure likes to attack people and makes a lot of assumptions about the people on here that he disagree with.

This is politics…….it is OK to have different opinions. You can have different opinions and still both have good intentions. It is OK to be passionate and still be civil……I guess this is 2022, so I should expect otherwise.

ABFAS grandfathering……yes it is unfair. Totally a valid point that most are aware of. Like you have said they are mainly aging out or will be soon in most cases. Lobby for changing it, but it is probably not changing and we all know if it does, it will be at a future date when 99 percent of the grandfathered have retired.

Case reviews……..potentially very subjective. I am not sure the answer. Other specilsities do it also and how do they do it differently? I had to do the process twice and barely did not pass first attempt. It is a hassle. If other specialities do away with it, I would have no problem with us doing the same.

The exam is subjective yet many fail………it is difficult but fair. Maybe someday professions will find a better process, but for now it is something you need to pass. Do we need to make an easier test?

The overall costs. If they are not inline with other specialities this should be discussed further. I believe some specialities still have orals. They have dome away with those which reduces the costs and at least removes one area of subjectivity.

We have two boards and many do just fine with ABPM. I know many whose qualification expired for ABFAS and had no path for ABPM either and most of them are doing just fine also. Yes I know some parts of the country are different and not having board certification or in some cases board certification in surgery can affect one.

it would be nice if we had one board with reasonable standards that well above 90 percent could obtain……maybe one day.

 

[dtrack22]

They have dome away with those which reduces the costs and at least removes one area of subjectivity.

This isn’t true. Ortho does an in person case review. They select fewer cases to review. The cost is the same. There is less subjectivity when you can sit in front of the grader and explain thought process than when the grader is at home with a stack of papers arbitrarily reducing your point total.

Getting rid of in person reviews only served to increase ABFAS’ financial bottom line. It didn’t make the exam more fair or cheaper. It reduced their overhead while maintaining their revenue.

 

[icebreaker32]

This isn’t true. Ortho does an in person case review. They select fewer cases to review. The cost is the same. There is less subjectivity when you can sit in front of the grader and explain thought process than when the grader is at home with a stack of papers arbitrarily reducing your point total.

Getting rid of in person reviews only served to increase ABFAS’ financial bottom line. It didn’t make the exam more fair or cheaper. It reduced their overhead while maintaining their revenue.

This isn’t true. Ortho does an in person case review. They select fewer cases to review. The cost is the same. There is less subjectivity when you can sit in front of the grader and explain thought process than when the grader is at home with a stack of papers arbitrarily reducing your point total.

Getting rid of in person reviews only served to increase ABFAS’ financial bottom line. It didn’t make the exam more fair or cheaper. It reduced their overhead while maintaining their revenue.

Good points.

What about cost of air, hotel, meals etc and time off work?

 

[dtrack22]

What about cost of air, hotel, meals etc and time off work?

A 3 day weekend in Chicago is cheaper than paying exam fees 2-3 years in a row…

 

[AttackNME]

Hi attack AttackNME, thanks for the kind words. I also hold a certificate from both the ABFAS and ABPM. These types of public forums are very useful, these posts will eventually (soon) will be found by all the web searches so others can educate themselves better about podiatry. Before these forums, there was basically ZERO out there about this subject matter. Now a simple search will open the public up to "podiatry boards".

So here are some suggestions.

1.) EVERYONE that was GRANDFATHERED IN should have to pass the foot surgery test (as it stands post 2020). Give them 7 years to pass. Allow them to stay certified for 7 years, if they don't pass after 7 years let them stayed BQ for life (most don't have 7 years left of practice). This will illiminate the GRANFATHERED IN unfairness.

2.) Get rid of the "foot and ankle" certificate. Effective immediately, all the foot and ankle crowd become instantly boarded in FOOT SURGERY ONLY.

ABFAS/CPME/APMA.....please, stop embarrassing yourselves using "public safety" as the umbrella for EVERYTHING. if they actually cared about public safety they would not LIE to the public about this foot and ankle garbage. 99% of the people with a foot and ankle certificate NEVER touched an ankle. But FOOT AND ANKLE sounds sexy for the APMA/CPME/ABFAS leadership. Isn't it great to make up the rules as you go. The ONLY DPMs that should even mention ankles are RRA certified DPMs post 2015. Period.

3.) Change the whole case review process. INCLUDE a thorough review of each candidates PEER REVIEW FILE. It would not be pretty at my hospital for the ABFAS crowd. But they don't wanna to see this or they will claim it all does not happen.

Little info for the ABFAS crowd......I have documented evidence that case reviewers for the ABFAS have been written up for negligence several times via peer review files. Yes, you have people grading and judging peers that being written up for "failure to diagnose or admit". So ABFAS. AUDIT anyone who reviews cases. Do you guys think this is fair?

These are just three out of hundreds of things that could be done. Speaking with other collegues, these are the 3 main issues that anger them the most. They feel like the process is rigged against them.

If the ABFAS is so worried about loosing money to the ABPM I have a suggestion for them. Being from the Bay area, everyone should take a moment to Google the ABFAS headquarters pictures. It is such a beautiful and unessaary building. The mosaic tile on the front is absolutely gorgeous. Maybe the ABFAS can offer tours (for a fee) of their redicoulsly extravagant headquarters and charge for the tours!!! During the tour they can tell you why they need to extort that 4k from poor residents to review cases so they can have that extravagant building DOWNTOWN SF.

Does ABFAS feel ANY shame spending that kind of money on that extravagant building while charging the fees they do? How much does that mosaic tile upkeep cost ABFAS? Is this why they charge 4k for case review? We get it, no worries right ABFAS?

This is only the tip of the iceberg guys. Again, ABFAS/CPME/APMA....do you really wanna go to WAR with us? We were YOUR oral examinees at O'Hare in the 90s, we know who you are. We have great memories.

Still waiting for a response from the ABFAS. Funny how quiet they get when you ask them some simple questions. ABFAS does not do well when they get called out. Crickets. Maybe they are too busy coordinsting (with apma/cpme of course) their next hit job on the ABPM.

Who from the ABPM did APMA/CPME speak with before these statements this week. That's right, no one. Why?

Can you explain what were the conditions that lead these podiatrists to be grandfathered in? What would happen if they had to have their status revoked if they don’t pass per your suggestion?

Is the foot cert idea to have all podiatrists have the ability to have surgical privileges, just different tiers? I can see how this might solve the problem of grandfathered podiatrists giving them an opportunity to remain board certified, and maybe if the case review for the foot cert isn’t extensive, it’s giving limb salvage focused podiatrists a chance to be board cert.

I think it’s fair that our case reviewers be held to a high standard. Do any other surgical specialties do remote case reviews like we do for the board cert process?

 

[deleted1138023]

Why the 7 year limit anyways?

 

[Feli]

...Ortho does an in person case review. They select fewer cases to review. The cost is the same. There is less subjectivity when you can sit in front of the grader and explain thought process than when the grader is at home with a stack of papers arbitrarily reducing your point total....

...A 3 day weekend in Chicago is cheaper than paying exam fees 2-3 years in a row…

Yeah, that's probably the way it should be.

That's what plastics and other surgical specialties do also (after candidate passed written)... they pick some cases, run through them with the candidate, figure out competency. Theirs are obviously photos and not XR typically.

Some just do written BQ and then oral or cases since they don't really have any "proof" of results (no XR or photos for OB, gen surg, ENT, etc), but they usually have at least a bit of time into practice and send case hospital log to be eligible for sitting cert oral/cases.

...So here are some suggestions.

1.) EVERYONE that was GRANDFATHERED IN should have to pass the foot surgery test (as it stands post 2020). Give them 7 years to pass...

I don't think too many people are worried what a fake account with fake info says about ABFAS or the process. Having past candidates take today's tests instead of "self assessments"? Yeah, that'd be about an 6% or 8% pass rate. Besides, no matter how different the exams are now, that would be double jeopardy scrutinization of their surgical knowledge/training. They passed (or failed) the format put in front of them in their time, and they will all eventually retire.

Heck, I was one of the better students in my pod class and did a residency with nearly 100% historical BQ pass rate, and I still had to study a fair amount for re-qual RRA when I was about a half dozen years out of training. Everyone plays by the rules in place at their given time. You expect anyone besides maybe the rare residency director, academic/teach job surgeon, or very very sharp DPM who graduated 15+ years ago to pass today's didactic exam and CBPS? The current exams are ones that only about two thirds of current residents pass Foot qual... and roughly half fail RRA qual (many don't even attempts RRA qual if their in-trainings were a disaster). Today's is an exam largely based on stuff that wasn't even McGlamry or in existence yet when the "grandfathered" were a student/resident (lock plates, TARs, ortho biologics, new meds and resistances and path/histo knowledge, weightbear CT, tissue biologics, IM ankle nails, ex-fix, etc?). Hmm... that would be an epic fail for our profession, on many levels.

 

[Feli]

Why the 7 year limit anyways?

They mirror off many other specialties... ABFAS mirrors ABOS/AAOS (except the cases aren't in-person anymore). I think ABOS gives them 5yrs but they can apply for extension. Still, if they job hop early or aren't a strong academic/didactic test taker, it gets dicey for orthos too.

ABPM mirrors who knows what... ABIM?

 

[dtrack22]

What about cost of air, hotel, meals etc and time off work?

To add, this is another ABFAS talking point. “We got rid of in person case review to save YOU money and time.”

“ABFAS certification will put YOU on par with your orthopedic peers and help with credentialing and privileging.”

“ABFAS certification is increasing patient safety.”

“ABFAS certification helps the general public understand that podiatrists are the most qualified foot and ankle surgeons.”

How about anyone on this board pick one of those statements (or several) and show us some empirical evidence/data that shows the talking point to be true. I’ll wait.

 

[icebreaker32]

A 3 day weekend in Chicago is cheaper than paying exam fees 2-3 years in a row…

Could just do Zoom I suppose.

 

[dtrack22]

Could just do Zoom I suppose.

And with that you just became 1000x more creative and reasonable than the ABFAS board of directors.

 

[deleted1138023]

WOW. the ABPM just told all the other organizations to suck it. lmao. Great for them. See below.

To Our Podiatry Community,

We cannot thank you all enough for the support and positive comments regarding our Certificate of Added Qualification (CAQ) program. While a majority of comments from the profession have been overwhelmingly supportive, we have received responses from a few organizations asking us to delay the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery. However, in light of the many heartfelt accounts from both young and established physicians, it is clear that the status quo is unfair and discriminates against many highly competent podiatrists. We have even heard from many women podiatrists, who highlight a disparity in certification opportunities due to starting families. Moreover, the very low pass rate of the other recognized board results in a large number of podiatrists who complete 3-year CPME-approved residencies not being able to successfully complete certification and obtain hospital privileges consistent with their education and training. This impacts them directly, and harms the public by decreasing our patients’ access to competent podiatric care. The profession should not simply sit by and do nothing after years of trying to get all the stake holders at the table to address this very serious condition that is strangling our profession.

You will read a contrast in our communications as compared to other organizations. We are not asking anything of the other certifying board. Instead, we believe a podiatrist should have a choice between two valid primary board certifications which can lead to hospital and surgical privileges. And if a board-certified podiatrist chooses to take a voluntary step beyond their board certification to identify specific areas of expertise by obtaining a CAQ, we believe that is their prerogative.

It should also be noted that for nearly two decades, since APMA Vision 2015 (written in 2005), the ABPM has periodically sat at the negotiating table with the APMA and the other recognized certifying board in an endeavor to unify the profession through a common certification pathway. One organization has unilaterally opposed these efforts. Thus, understandably, we feel the sudden calls for negotiation and cries of divisiveness to be disingenuous. However, if a serious attempt at unification or improvement in the process of podiatric board certification is made by all organizations, we will be first at the table, as we always have been.

To be clear, the ABPM is an autonomous testing organization with several valid, independently-verified, and trusted exams that has been in existence since 1978. As the CPME acknowledged, we have the authority to issue CAQs under our own autonomy. We are moving forward with our established CAQ process without delay. Diplomates may register for the all three of our CAQ examinations beginning tomorrow.

We believe our mission is consistent with what is best for the profession and the patients we serve, and we appreciate your continued support.​

Sincerely,

The ABPM Board of Directors

 

[newfeet]

WOW. the ABPM just told all the other organizations to suck it. lmao. Great for them. See below.

To Our Podiatry Community,

We cannot thank you all enough for the support and positive comments regarding our Certificate of Added Qualification (CAQ) program. While a majority of comments from the profession have been overwhelmingly supportive, we have received responses from a few organizations asking us to delay the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery. However, in light of the many heartfelt accounts from both young and established physicians, it is clear that the status quo is unfair and discriminates against many highly competent podiatrists. We have even heard from many women podiatrists, who highlight a disparity in certification opportunities due to starting families. Moreover, the very low pass rate of the other recognized board results in a large number of podiatrists who complete 3-year CPME-approved residencies not being able to successfully complete certification and obtain hospital privileges consistent with their education and training. This impacts them directly, and harms the public by decreasing our patients’ access to competent podiatric care. The profession should not simply sit by and do nothing after years of trying to get all the stake holders at the table to address this very serious condition that is strangling our profession.

You will read a contrast in our communications as compared to other organizations. We are not asking anything of the other certifying board. Instead, we believe a podiatrist should have a choice between two valid primary board certifications which can lead to hospital and surgical privileges. And if a board-certified podiatrist chooses to take a voluntary step beyond their board certification to identify specific areas of expertise by obtaining a CAQ, we believe that is their prerogative.

It should also be noted that for nearly two decades, since APMA Vision 2015 (written in 2005), the ABPM has periodically sat at the negotiating table with the APMA and the other recognized certifying board in an endeavor to unify the profession through a common certification pathway. One organization has unilaterally opposed these efforts. Thus, understandably, we feel the sudden calls for negotiation and cries of divisiveness to be disingenuous. However, if a serious attempt at unification or improvement in the process of podiatric board certification is made by all organizations, we will be first at the table, as we always have been.

To be clear, the ABPM is an autonomous testing organization with several valid, independently-verified, and trusted exams that has been in existence since 1978. As the CPME acknowledged, we have the authority to issue CAQs under our own autonomy. We are moving forward with our established CAQ process without delay. Diplomates may register for the all three of our CAQ examinations beginning tomorrow.

We believe our mission is consistent with what is best for the profession and the patients we serve, and we appreciate your continued support.​

Sincerely,

The ABPM Board of Directors

Damn.

 

[SouthPod7]

WOW. the ABPM just told all the other organizations to suck it. lmao. Great for them. See below.

To Our Podiatry Community,

We cannot thank you all enough for the support and positive comments regarding our Certificate of Added Qualification (CAQ) program. While a majority of comments from the profession have been overwhelmingly supportive, we have received responses from a few organizations asking us to delay the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery. However, in light of the many heartfelt accounts from both young and established physicians, it is clear that the status quo is unfair and discriminates against many highly competent podiatrists. We have even heard from many women podiatrists, who highlight a disparity in certification opportunities due to starting families. Moreover, the very low pass rate of the other recognized board results in a large number of podiatrists who complete 3-year CPME-approved residencies not being able to successfully complete certification and obtain hospital privileges consistent with their education and training. This impacts them directly, and harms the public by decreasing our patients’ access to competent podiatric care. The profession should not simply sit by and do nothing after years of trying to get all the stake holders at the table to address this very serious condition that is strangling our profession.

You will read a contrast in our communications as compared to other organizations. We are not asking anything of the other certifying board. Instead, we believe a podiatrist should have a choice between two valid primary board certifications which can lead to hospital and surgical privileges. And if a board-certified podiatrist chooses to take a voluntary step beyond their board certification to identify specific areas of expertise by obtaining a CAQ, we believe that is their prerogative.

It should also be noted that for nearly two decades, since APMA Vision 2015 (written in 2005), the ABPM has periodically sat at the negotiating table with the APMA and the other recognized certifying board in an endeavor to unify the profession through a common certification pathway. One organization has unilaterally opposed these efforts. Thus, understandably, we feel the sudden calls for negotiation and cries of divisiveness to be disingenuous. However, if a serious attempt at unification or improvement in the process of podiatric board certification is made by all organizations, we will be first at the table, as we always have been.

To be clear, the ABPM is an autonomous testing organization with several valid, independently-verified, and trusted exams that has been in existence since 1978. As the CPME acknowledged, we have the authority to issue CAQs under our own autonomy. We are moving forward with our established CAQ process without delay. Diplomates may register for the all three of our CAQ examinations beginning tomorrow.

We believe our mission is consistent with what is best for the profession and the patients we serve, and we appreciate your continued support.​

Sincerely,

The ABPM Board of Directors

I plan on sitting for and earning the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery.

I 100% agree on the need for a single, unified credentialing board and I think this a wonderful start to that process. More and more Podiatrists need to sit for and obtain the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery to act as a counterbalance to ABFAS and start diminishing their influence.

 

[deleted1138023]

I plan on sitting for and earning the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery.

I 100% agree on the need for a single, unified credentialing board and I think this a wonderful start to that process. More and more Podiatrists need to sit for and obtain the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery to act as a counterbalance to ABFAS and start diminishing their influence.

I think I will do the same.

 

[wakaflocka88]

I plan on sitting for and earning the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery.

I 100% agree on the need for a single, unified credentialing board and I think this a wonderful start to that process. More and more Podiatrists need to sit for and obtain the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery to act as a counterbalance to ABFAS and start diminishing their influence.

Maybe this isn’t a bad idea.

ABFAS - If you believe so strongly in your position, make your testing fee cheaper if you don’t need to pocket the money yourself. ABPM stands firm, what’s your move?

 

[Feli]

WOW. the ABPM just told all the other organizations to suck it. lmao. Great for them...

Yeah, interesting doubling down on something already negativity responded to.

The only power/validity ABPM has is from APMA recognition. This is kinda the fast track to being an unrecognized podiatry board. None of these organizations are on an island. They might end up having "own autonomy" and "authority" even more than ever by pushing this. ABMSP can do whatever they like too... no flack (or recognition) from anyone.

Unless ABPM has some inside track to ABMS or something (0.00641% chance?), this seems like a poor move. The CAQ surgery was a neat ploy to point to that podiatry could have one board or spotlight the dissatisfaction with ABFAS pass/cert rates, but sometimes the arrogance of a victory is the downfall?

Law 47: Do Not go Past The Mark You Aimed For, In Victory Learn When To Stop

The moment of victory is often the moment of greatest peril. In the heat of victory, arrogance and overconfidence can push you past the g...

48laws-of-power.blogspot.com

 

[newfeet]

I plan on sitting for and earning the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery.

I 100% agree on the need for a single, unified credentialing board and I think this a wonderful start to that process. More and more Podiatrists need to sit for and obtain the CAQ in Podiatric Surgery to act as a counterbalance to ABFAS and start diminishing their influence.

I’m debating if I should sit for it as well. Not sure how it will help me in my current role.

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hey Feli...your post:

Unless ABPM has some inside track to ABMS or something

What if we're working with orthopedics (my wife) to allow ABPM to be recognized by the ABMS? Interesting huh? But I'm just a fake account right Feli. No one listems to fake accounts! It's ok, we understand.

Imagine the ABPM being recognized by ABMS but ABFAS is not. I bet Feli knows better and will never happen.

Hey Feli, you guys are unstoppable right? What happens when no one buys your bull anymore?

Good job ABPM. WE ARE ALL HERE TO SUPPORT YOU!!! STAY STRONG, WE ARE HERE TO SUPPORT YOU.

 

[deleted1138023]

honestly we need to get these two organizations in the ring. feel like it's the only way to settle it at this point.

 

[Feli]

Hey Feli...your post:

Unless ABPM has some inside track to ABMS or something

What if we're working with orthopedics (my wife) to allow ABPM to be recognized by the ABMS? Interesting huh? But I'm just a fake account right Feli. No one listems to fake accounts! It's ok, we understand.

Imagine the ABPM being recognized by ABMS but ABFAS is not...

Lol. It would be the first time ABMS ever accepted a non-MD board as a recognized board, correct?

That seems as illogical as the day is long, but not completely impossible. Again, sub 1% chance in my estimation.

...So, back in reality, that will leave ABPM to figure out how to create an amicable solution to this... or they may very well become a non-recognized board. APMA has proven repeatedly that they can ostracize and replace organizations who are disagreeable. Time will tell.

Personally, I'm not dropping my ABPM (huge CME at old job and did 10year), definitely not dropping ABFAS or halting work to full cert, and certainly not doing a CAQ. That new CAQ is unofficial and meant to dupe hospitals; worse, it's a power grab for the board by using ppl who cant pass ABFAS as bargain chip... it will probably still fail to launch (nix CAQ will likely be needed to made amends with APMA / CPME).

So yeah, I'm fine waiting for the dust to settle...

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Feli,

It would be the first time ABMS ever accepted a non-MD board as a recognized board, correct?

Yes you are correct. Just like my generation fought for the 1st time as NON MD's allowed to do ankle surgery. Yes Feli, there are firsts for everything!!!

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Hey Feli one more quick question: you stated:

So, back in reality, that will leave ABPM to figure out how to create an amicable solution to this... or they may very well become a non-recognized board. APMA has proven repeatedly that they can ostracize and replace organizations who are disagreeable. Time will tell.

How do you think that would hold up in class action lawsuit with 500+ dpms calling out the ABFAS fraud? Some who's life's are ruined? Some who are now addicted to drugs n alcohol because they were called loosers by people like Feli? Keep eating that popcorn doc, gonna have to make more soon!!!!

 

[air bud]

I think I will do the same.

@JewOnThis will depending on price

 

[Pronation]

@JewOnThis will depending on price

Do you think they might allow bargaining on the price?

 

[Scrantonicity]

Hey Feli one more quick question: you stated:

So, back in reality, that will leave ABPM to figure out how to create an amicable solution to this... or they may very well become a non-recognized board. APMA has proven repeatedly that they can ostracize and replace organizations who are disagreeable. Time will tell.

How do you think that would hold up in class action lawsuit with 500+ dpms calling out the ABFAS fraud? Some who's life's are ruined? Some who are now addicted to drugs n alcohol because they were called loosers by people like Feli? Keep eating that popcorn doc, gonna have to make more soon!!!!

I'd like to go on record saying that my heavy drug and alcohol dependency is directly linked to Feli's posts. Thanks, Feli

 

[DPM TRUTH]

Very sad to see people's lives ruined because they think they are "failures" because of failing the unfair, YES UNFAIR, ABFAS exams. All that school and training and a "board" controls your future via litigation threats.

Unlike when I went to podiatry school for 25k, the residents are now graduating with 200k+ in debt. 200k in student loans and the ABFAS wants another 4k to review the cases after they "fail". Who thinks that's fair. Please justify the 4k? Mosaic tile work for headquarters....gotcha ABFAS!!!!

Wow, is that not borderline criminal? While the ABFAS has that EXTRAVAGENT headquarters. Extort more $$$ from the residents. ABFAS, how about if the residents win appeal you pay them 4k? Of course not, right?

Hey ABFAS crowd, how about get a cheaper, more modest headquarters then you don't have to extort the residents for all that $$$. WOW, great idea right! Heck no, they need to throw it in the poor residents face. Give us another 4k of your loan money! Because we said so and NOONE can touch us. Is that what you ABFAS mavericks really think. Lemme guess, they don't have to answer, they answer to no one. Gotcha! Public safety, right?

Does anyone here from the ABFAS feel bad about doing this to their young? Of course not!!!! Public safety, public safety right?