2019 Doximity Physician Compensation Report - Rad Onc Still True Ballin'

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

emt409

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
180
Reaction score
86
This just in, the sky has not fallen. Rad onc only trails neurosurg, CT surg, and ortho. Also, gender wage gap among the lowest of all specialties. Still a great field.

upload_2019-3-29_10-4-58.png


https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.doximit...nual_physician_compensation_report_round3.pdf

Members don't see this ad.
 
That's encouraging but if things continue the way they are, it won't be a "great" field. Hopefully, the proposed ACGME changes will maintain Rad Onc's status as a "great" field.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
This entire forum has become dominated by a bunch of whiny, old, anachronistic, doom and gloom crones. You all know who you are.

Every day, I get to get up, take care of people at the hardest moments of their lives, and give them the tools to fight the battle of their lives. I only have to stay past 6 if I want to work on something on my time, or do research, and the only time I have to come in on the weekends is if my treatment is life or limb-sparing. Not only that, I get paid higher than nearly every other specialty of comparable hours. When bundled care is implemented, those of who understand and have been using hypofractionated regimens will be just fine.

Those dinosaurs who have been padding their RVUs by dragging their 15-20 patients on beam 2x as long as they need (or illegally & immorally over-billing medicare for unsupervised and/or duplicate services (yes, most of us know who that is on here)) will be in trouble, and I have no sympathy for them.
 
This entire forum has become dominated by a bunch of whiny, old, anachronistic, doom and gloom crones. You all know who you are.

Every day, I get to get up, take care of people at the hardest moments of their lives, and give them the tools to fight the battle of their lives. I only have to stay past 6 if I want to work on something on my time, or do research, and the only time I have to come in on the weekends is if my treatment is life or limb-sparing. Not only that, I get paid higher than nearly every other specialty of comparable hours. When bundled care is implemented, those of who understand and have been using hypofractionated regimens will be just fine.

Those dinosaurs who have been padding their RVUs by dragging their 15-20 patients on beam 2x as long as they need (or illegally & immorally over-billing medicare for unsupervised and/or duplicate services (yes, most of us know who that is on here)) will be in trouble, and I have no sympathy for them.

You’re awesome! Too bad we all can’t be as great as you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Who is making that money? It sure isn't me. I can't see myself making $480k in the next decade, if ever. I've never had an offer anywhere close to that number.

PS: No personal attacks allowed. I deleted an offending post after mine.

PPS: I just saw MGMA 2018. It's even higher than this. Where have I gone so wrong... :laugh:
 
Last edited:
As the Chief of surgery at my Tumor Board says, these data are garbage, doctors.
1. Self-reported. 2. Unknown number of responders. 3. Unclear if methodology presumes total compensation (like medical insurance contributions, 401k matching). 4. The number is not realistic according to my personal experience being out for 9 years. AAMC data is the only one close to the reality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
PS: No personal attacks allowed. I deleted an offending post after mine.

Does that include the OP?

Those dinosaurs who have been padding their RVUs by dragging their 15-20 patients on beam 2x as long as they need (or illegally & immorally over-billing medicare for unsupervised and/or duplicate services (yes, most of us know who that is on here)
 
My two cents: where I work, a C tier, not particularly pleasant nor particularly small town in the Midwest, every rad onc salary I've heard is at least 60 - 70K above this average. Some quite a bit higher than that. N of about 10 locally here.
 
This entire forum has become dominated by a bunch of whiny, old, anachronistic, doom and gloom crones. You all know who you are.

An interesting take from a resident who hasn't even had to start the job search yet.

Every day, I get to get up, take care of people at the hardest moments of their lives, and give them the tools to fight the battle of their lives. I only have to stay past 6 if I want to work on something on my time, or do research, and the only time I have to come in on the weekends is if my treatment is life or limb-sparing. Not only that, I get paid higher than nearly every other specialty of comparable hours. When bundled care is implemented, those of who understand and have been using hypofractionated regimens will be just fine.

Certainly not true of my residency.

Those dinosaurs who have been padding their RVUs by dragging their 15-20 patients on beam 2x as long as they need (or illegally & immorally over-billing medicare for unsupervised and/or duplicate services (yes, most of us know who that is on here)) will be in trouble, and I have no sympathy for them.

Just rude.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Nor my practice

(unlike academics with multiple warm bodies per linac and a single center to cover, Medicare won't let me see my inpatient consults until I'm done treating for the day).
Is that a regular thing or only when you are the person assigned to close? Also if the hospital is in the same building as the linac you could see inpatients during the day, right?
 
Is that a regular thing or only when you are the person assigned to close? Also if the hospital is in the same building as the linac you could see inpatients during the day, right?
No assignment when you're the only doc at a center.

Freestanding center coverage is much stricter and requires MD supervision (while the hospital has some gray zone with NPs with rad onc training possibly being allowed to cover, but that's for another thread).
 
Last edited:
No assignment when you're the only doc at a center.

Freestanding center coverage is much stricter and requires MD supervision (while the hospital has some gray zone with NPs with rad onc training possibly being allowed to cover, but that's for another thread).
Our gray zone is that there are doctors on the wards and throughout the hospital 24/7 that presumably count...
 
Our gray zone is that there are doctors on the wards and throughout the hospital 24/7 that presumably count...

speak for yourself, doubt there are many other residency programs where this is true (if true at your program)
 
Our gray zone is that there are doctors on the wards and throughout the hospital 24/7 that presumably count...
Not sure how you can be "immediately available" to assist with igrt when you are seeing patients up on the floors (only matters for CMS/tricare patients). An ob gyn or med onc probably doesn't know how to line up a cbct...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I am senior resident, but still a resident, so I still try to remember my place and remember to try and know what I don't know. When I look back on where I was 2 years ago and what I thought I knew compared to what I know now, it's astounding. I will certainly try to keep this in mind as I enter practice and remember I still have a lot to learn and to exercise caution, remember that we wield pretty awesome power and have the potential to cause a lot of harm, and respect the experience of my elders! I don't think I've ever seen such a stunning display of the Dunning-Kruger effect on here before.

Second year rad onc resident who per post history failed to match (not that there's ANYTHING wrong with this -- I know a handful of excellent rad oncs who didn't match the first time and subsequently passed boards first try) repeatedly lectures attendings in practice for many years on how to treat patients, blindly lambasts well-established standard high-level evidence-based practices (PCI in LS-SCLC - "Slotman study set us back 20 years") that are currently being questioned but have not yet been overturned in the guidelines while parading ultra-hypofrac with short-term data as the only true standard of care and deriding/mocking those who don't accept it and calling into question their ethics (to say the least).

And presumably gets on Mednet and starts answering questions from attendings under the auspices providing an expert opinion (That's why community practice docs come to Mednet -- to get help with difficult cases from site specific experts who publish the guidelines).

If I might make a teeny suggestion: A bit of humility, please.

Good times.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
This entire forum has become dominated by a bunch of whiny, old, anachronistic, doom and gloom crones. You all know who you are.
And yet here you are. Reminds one of an old Gilbert Gottfried joke...

Guy goes into the woods, hunting. While sitting there with his gun, a bear comes up from behind the guy and bends him over and has his way with the hunter. The hunter, enraged, comes back the next day to the same spot with a machine gun. As he's looking out into the forest, again the bear rushes up from behind the guy and has his way with him. Well now the hunter is really really mad. Can't believe the temerity of this bear! He comes back the next day to the same spot with a bazooka, waiting for the bear. The bear sneaks up behind the guy and as he does he whispers in the hunter's ear:

Something's tellin' me you're not just comin' here to hunt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Guys get a room. Meet halfway.

Back to original topic - good to see this data
 
I would like to remind some people. You are NOT as anonymous as you think
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Not sure how you can be "immediately available" to assist with igrt when you are seeing patients up on the floors (only matters for CMS/tricare patients). An ob gyn or med onc probably doesn't know how to line up a cbct...
I am not familiar with the specific regulations so that does sound suspect. But many residents don't assist with IGRT either...anyway good to know this is not OK.
 
When you click to that thread the user @BobbyHeenan is describing the same situation I described above but it sounds like now most people don't agree?
Would read through the whole thread and see the ASTRO white paper.

It's a gray zone to some but personally I'd have someone immediately available to check igrt on any CMS or tricare pt being treated in any hospital or freestanding center
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Our gray zone is that there are doctors on the wards and throughout the hospital 24/7 that presumably count...
These questions generate great feelings of angst in some and smug superiority in others. The truth is always in the middle.

FWIW here is a direct summary from the late, great Dr. Carl Bogardus who's as close to an authority on this matter as anyone in radiation oncology:

1. The radiation oncology physician is responsible for the overall care and maintenance of the health and safety of his/her patients as long as they are receiving radiation treatment. This responsibility may be delegated to another physician.
2. The radiation oncology physician may, from time to time, need to be absent from the facility while patients are receiving treatment. During this absence he/she may designate another physician [M.D., or D.O.] to provide medical coverage in his/her absence.
3. The covering physician is not required to be a radiation oncologist.
4. The covering physician should meet the criteria of a facility's limited privileges document.
5. In a hospital setting this covering physician does not necessarily need to be physically located within the radiation oncology department, but only has to be immediately available and able to render care and assistance when needed.
6. The covering physician may perform all E/M type procedures such as new patient evaluation, under beam evaluation [to include supervision of daily treatment and review of portal imaging], and follow-up evaluation.
7. The covering physician, unless he/she is a trained radiation oncology physician would not be expected to perform or supervise other radiation oncology specific procedures such as treatment planning, simulation, or dosimetry.
8. If the radiation oncology physician expects to be absent for four or more consecutive days, it is recommended that physician coverage be provided by a physician with training in the specialty of radiation oncology.

When a physician is providing direct supervision, he/she doesn't even need to know he/she is actually providing that supervision. In a previous case, a judge found "...that under the incident to rules, in a physician-directed clinic the supervising physician need not be aware of every instance of service she is deemed to be supervising as long as she was physically present in the office suite and available for immediate assistance."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
And yet here you are. Reminds one of an old Gilbert Gottfried joke...

Guy goes into the woods, hunting. While sitting there with his gun, a bear comes up from behind the guy and bends him over and has his way with the hunter. The hunter, enraged, comes back the next day to the same spot with a machine gun. As he's looking out into the forest, again the bear rushes up from behind the guy and has his way with him. Well now the hunter is really really mad. Can't believe the temerity of this bear! He comes back the next day to the same spot with a bazooka, waiting for the bear. The bear sneaks up behind the guy and as he does he whispers in the hunter's ear:

Something's tellin' me you're not just comin' here to hunt.

Omg lmao
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These questions generate great feelings of angst in some and smug superiority in others. The truth is always in the middle.

FWIW here is a direct summary from the late, great Dr. Carl Bogardus who's as close to an authority on this matter as anyone in radiation oncology:

1. The radiation oncology physician is responsible for the overall care and maintenance of the health and safety of his/her patients as long as they are receiving radiation treatment. This responsibility may be delegated to another physician.
2. The radiation oncology physician may, from time to time, need to be absent from the facility while patients are receiving treatment. During this absence he/she may designate another physician [M.D., or D.O.] to provide medical coverage in his/her absence.
3. The covering physician is not required to be a radiation oncologist.
4. The covering physician should meet the criteria of a facility's limited privileges document.
5. In a hospital setting this covering physician does not necessarily need to be physically located within the radiation oncology department, but only has to be immediately available and able to render care and assistance when needed.
6. The covering physician may perform all E/M type procedures such as new patient evaluation, under beam evaluation [to include supervision of daily treatment and review of portal imaging], and follow-up evaluation.
7. The covering physician, unless he/she is a trained radiation oncology physician would not be expected to perform or supervise other radiation oncology specific procedures such as treatment planning, simulation, or dosimetry.
8. If the radiation oncology physician expects to be absent for four or more consecutive days, it is recommended that physician coverage be provided by a physician with training in the specialty of radiation oncology.

When a physician is providing direct supervision, he/she doesn't even need to know he/she is actually providing that supervision. In a previous case, a judge found "...that under the incident to rules, in a physician-directed clinic the supervising physician need not be aware of every instance of service she is deemed to be supervising as long as she was physically present in the office suite and available for immediate assistance."
Yet here we are with the precedent of multiple qui tam lawsuits with multimillion dollar settlements in both the hospital and freestanding settings regarding physician supervision....

(they only have to be right once.. You have to be right every time)

As supervision-related claims were the simplest claims to support in the above cases, supervision requirements must be adhered to, and are reasonably clear.

Less clear is who may supervise, which is an evolving issue that may be resolved by hospitals in complying with CMS rules for Conditions of Participation with respect to privileging.

While certain medical practices have expanded definitions of who can be privileged to perform certain procedures, cost-containment strategies that would allow anyone other than a physician trained in radiation oncology to supervise radiation treatments should be reviewed with legal counsel.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These questions generate great feelings of angst in some and smug superiority in others. The truth is always in the middle.

FWIW here is a direct summary from the late, great Dr. Carl Bogardus who's as close to an authority on this matter as anyone in radiation oncology:

1. The radiation oncology physician is responsible for the overall care and maintenance of the health and safety of his/her patients as long as they are receiving radiation treatment. This responsibility may be delegated to another physician.
2. The radiation oncology physician may, from time to time, need to be absent from the facility while patients are receiving treatment. During this absence he/she may designate another physician [M.D., or D.O.] to provide medical coverage in his/her absence.
3. The covering physician is not required to be a radiation oncologist.
4. The covering physician should meet the criteria of a facility's limited privileges document.
5. In a hospital setting this covering physician does not necessarily need to be physically located within the radiation oncology department, but only has to be immediately available and able to render care and assistance when needed.
6. The covering physician may perform all E/M type procedures such as new patient evaluation, under beam evaluation [to include supervision of daily treatment and review of portal imaging], and follow-up evaluation.
7. The covering physician, unless he/she is a trained radiation oncology physician would not be expected to perform or supervise other radiation oncology specific procedures such as treatment planning, simulation, or dosimetry.
8. If the radiation oncology physician expects to be absent for four or more consecutive days, it is recommended that physician coverage be provided by a physician with training in the specialty of radiation oncology.

When a physician is providing direct supervision, he/she doesn't even need to know he/she is actually providing that supervision. In a previous case, a judge found "...that under the incident to rules, in a physician-directed clinic the supervising physician need not be aware of every instance of service she is deemed to be supervising as long as she was physically present in the office suite and available for immediate assistance."

Bogardus is the man. Guy loves a good oreo cookie.
 
Bogardus was cool - but agree with medgator - ultimately doesn’t matter what he said, matters what the official guidelines and legal precedent is
 
Bogardus was cool - but agree with medgator - ultimately doesn’t matter what he said, matters what the official guidelines and legal precedent is
The official guidelines say it can be any physician; ASTRO has reiterated this and claims it doesn't even have to be a doctor that's supervising. However, in truth and to @medgator's well-made point, the "official guidelines" have not mattered that much. But the "legal precedent(s)" have consisted of settlements, which aren't really precedents. Though there have been other non-settlements however which have matched the guidelines. Bobby Knight once said "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it." Wrong, of course. However, when it comes to the legal equivalent of that, fight back... or relax and enjoy it? There have been outcomes both ways.
 

Interesting

Although relators had cited a separate LCD provision that did expressly require a radiation oncologist's direct supervision of a fifth type of therapy not at issue in the case, Image Guided Radiation Therapy (IGRT), the Court declined to extend this requirement to other therapies.

So basically because sbrt bundles the igrt code in and you can't bill for it, it's kosher to play around with supervision? Probably the most important type of therapy for RO physician supervision of all :laugh:

I wonder if centers will start pushing the envelope on supervision when we move to bundled payments...
 
Last edited:
Agree with medgator. If a service is bundled and one essential component is missing I’d assume the whole service is at risk of not being paid (or returned as CMS could do).
 
Agree with medgator. If a service is bundled and one essential component is missing I’d assume the whole service is at risk of not being paid (or returned as CMS could do).
The case that was cited by scarbrtj actually indicates that isn't true, and the judge threw out the whistle-blower lawsuit, which I found surprising
 
Not sure how you can be "immediately available" to assist with igrt when you are seeing patients up on the floors (only matters for CMS/tricare patients). An ob gyn or med onc probably doesn't know how to line up a cbct...

Several of our clinics are in hospitals and we go to the floors all the time while the linacs are treating.

If something is awry with the IGRT they call me and I'm back in a few minutes. If there is a patient who needs emergency attention, they use the hospital services.

My boss has already made this decision for me, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

If it was a freestanding center things would get more tricky.
 
Top