USNWR vs Lay Prestige (Pitt vs Dartmouth)

[Gurby]

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[CoffeeMug13]

This is not a good factor to use in picking schools.

 

[Willy38]

I would go to Pitt. They have some great residency programs. Only consideration would be if you're interested in MD/MBA because Tuck is a great B-school especially for healthcare econ.

 

[libertyyne]

Pitt. Better chances of getting your specialty of choice. Hanover is kinda sweet, but pitt will get you that residency. No one cares where you went to medical school after you get into residency. Especially not your patients.

 

[slippydubloons]

Where do you want to live for 2+ years. What kind of experience do you want to have. You have one life to do what you want and live where you want. The other factors won't matter in time


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[WedgeDawg]

Pitt's name is more well-respected in medicine, their hospital is infinitely stronger in things outside of systems-based healthcare (which doesn't appear to be what you're interested in), Pittsburgh > Hanover in terms of everything except natural beauty, so unless you really want to go glacier climbing every weekend, Pitt seems to be a better fit for your goals.

 

[Gurby]

Pitt. Better chances of getting your specialty of choice. Hanover is kinda sweet, but pitt will get you that residency. No one cares where you went to medical school after you get into residency. Especially not your patients.

Is that really the case though? I know it's dangerous to read too much into match lists as a pre-med, but I feel like the two schools are relatively comparable with regards to placing people into competitive specialties/programs. There's also potentially a lot of bias in the list because someone who chooses to go to med school at Dartmouth may be less likely to gun for a NYC residency, for instance.

I guess the fact that UPMC >>>> DHMC is pretty huge though because your best shot to match is at a home institution, especially when talking about specialties where it's tough to match at all, let alone to a "top program".

Geisel didn't publish their 2016 match results, but they posted a video of the ceremony on youtube so for funsies I watched 20 minutes of it:

IM_ NYU
IM_ Cornell
Peds_ Cornell
Anesthesia_ Cornell
OBGYN_ Wright State?
Ortho_ Cleveland Clinic
Peds+OBGN_ couples match Utah
IM_ Brigham&Women’s
Urology_ University of MN
IM_ UWashington
Gen Surg_ Abington Memorial?
Psychiatry_ DHMC
Gen Surg_ DHMC
IM_ DHMC
Derm_ UCSF
Peds+EM_ Tucson
Neurosurgery_ URochester
IM_ UPenn
IM_ Mt Sinai
IM_ DHMC
Anesthesia_ UWashington
Vascular_ Surgery DHMC
FM_ Missoula MT
Urology_ UWisconsin Madison
Plastic Surgery_ Duke
EM_ Beth Israel Deaconess
IM_ DHMC

Not too shabby in my opinion!

Pitt's name is more well-respected in medicine, their hospital is infinitely stronger in things outside of systems-based healthcare (which doesn't appear to be what you're interested in), Pittsburgh > Hanover in terms of everything except natural beauty, so unless you really want to go glacier climbing every weekend, Pitt seems to be a better fit for your goals.

I do enjoy glacier climbing and other things of that sort. I see pros and cons to both locations, I think it's a wash for me on that front, or maybe even a small advantage for Dartmouth.

 

[Astra]

What's the diff in CoA? Where do you wanna practice?

Based on what you've posted, I would say Pitt

 

[deleted785918]

IIRC, didn't you get into Mayo AZ? Are you not considering it?

 

[SValley]

Sounds to me like you *think* you should choose Pitt because it's more prestigious according to hospital system/ranking & your ultimate goal of wanting a more competitive specialty. But when it came to the area/track record of excellent placement..you kinda gave Geisel the edge. I mean look at the placement. Cornell, Harvard, Duke, UCSF...not too shabby for a lil old school in the woods.

Similarly, if you look at Pitt's match list without placement in UPMC affiliated programs...a tiny bit less impressive to my eye. Obviously these are very loose comparisons, but it you're thinking Dartmouth is going to hold you back in any way...lol it's not.

Opportunity at Pitt is nearly unlimited. But really, how many labs are you gonna do research in? Will the zebra cases really put you that far ahead in residency, when everyone basically gets the ego knocked out of them on July 1/first day of intern year? If you're thinking about connections, I'd argue the Dartmouth connections are just as good because like..look at where these kids are being placed.

Rambling, but I've grappled with this same exact decision as well. I've been agonizing for at least a month.

 

[Gurby]

What's the diff in CoA? Where do you wanna practice?

Based on what you've posted, I would say Pitt

Not sure about COA but probably comparable. I think I'd like to end up in NE or PNW.

IIRC, didn't you get into Mayo AZ? Are you not considering it?

I did... and to muddy the waters further, they offered me a full tuition+fees scholarship (not guaranteed for all 4 years though... but probably for all 4 years... but maybe not). I liked the school, the facilities were the nicest of any school I went to, people are nice, good opportunities to do outdoorsy things I like to do. I'm just a bit scared by the newness, and wary of the fact that as a premed it's hard for me to gauge how big a factor that might be. I've talked to a couple residents/attendings at big name programs who discouraged me from going there unless they gave me a pile of money. Haven't heard about financial aid from Dartmouth or Pitt, so I think that might be a big deciding factor in the end.

Sounds to me like you *think* you should choose Pitt because it's more prestigious according to hospital system/ranking & your ultimate goal of wanting a more competitive specialty. But when it came to the area/track record of excellent placement..you kinda gave Geisel the edge. I mean look at the placement. Cornell, Harvard, Duke, UCSF...not too shabby for a lil old school in the woods.

Similarly, if you look at Pitt's match list without placement in UPMC affiliated programs...a tiny bit less impressive to my eye. Obviously these are very loose comparisons, but it you're thinking Dartmouth is going to hold you back in any way...lol it's not.

Opportunity at Pitt is nearly unlimited. But really, how many labs are you gonna do research in? Will the zebra cases really put you that far ahead in residency, when everyone basically gets the ego knocked out of them on July 1/first day of intern year? If you're thinking about connections, I'd argue the Dartmouth connections are just as good because like..look at where these kids are being placed.

Rambling, but I've grappled with this same exact decision as well. I've been agonizing for at least a month.

Pretty much yeah. I really don't imagine it's super valuable to see lots of zebras as a medical student who barely knows what a horse is. Also, as complexity increases med students will likely be directly involved less. On the other hand, it's nice to have the chance to get recommendations and network with big names, and nice to have that boosted chance of matching a great home program. On the other other hand, maybe it's hard to stand out and form real connectionswhen your peers are such rockstarsRE connections, 10% of the Geisel 2016 class matched to Harvard residencies so there's that.

 

[libertyyne]

Not sure about COA but probably comparable. I think I'd like to end up in NE or PNW.



I did... and to muddy the waters further, they offered me a full tuition+fees scholarship (not guaranteed for all 4 years though... but probably for all 4 years... but maybe not). I liked the school, the facilities were the nicest of any school I went to, people are nice, good opportunities to do outdoorsy things I like to do. I'm just a bit scared by the newness, and wary of the fact that as a premed it's hard for me to gauge how big a factor that might be. I've talked to a couple residents/attendings at big name programs who discouraged me from going there unless they gave me a pile of money. Haven't heard about financial aid from Dartmouth or Pitt, so I think that might be a big deciding factor in the end.

Pretty much yeah. I really don't imagine it's super valuable to see lots of zebras as a medical student who barely knows what a horse is. Also, as complexity increases med students will likely be directly involved less. On the other hand, it's nice to have the chance to get recommendations and network with big names, and nice to have that boosted chance of matching a great home program. On the other other hand, maybe it's hard to stand out and form real connectionswhen your peers are such rockstarsRE connections, 10% of the Geisel 2016 class matched to Harvard residencies so there's that.

You are ascribing "Top Tier" Status to all Harvard residencies. It is really difficult for us to assess the quality of residencies. That being said the USWNR crowd would say to go with pitt. It seems like your heart is saying to go with Hanover.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Not sure about COA but probably comparable. I think I'd like to end up in NE or PNW.



I did... and to muddy the waters further, they offered me a full tuition+fees scholarship (not guaranteed for all 4 years though... but probably for all 4 years... but maybe not). I liked the school, the facilities were the nicest of any school I went to, people are nice, good opportunities to do outdoorsy things I like to do. I'm just a bit scared by the newness, and wary of the fact that as a premed it's hard for me to gauge how big a factor that might be. I've talked to a couple residents/attendings at big name programs who discouraged me from going there unless they gave me a pile of money. Haven't heard about financial aid from Dartmouth or Pitt, so I think that might be a big deciding factor in the end.

Pretty much yeah. I really don't imagine it's super valuable to see lots of zebras as a medical student who barely knows what a horse is. Also, as complexity increases med students will likely be directly involved less. On the other hand, it's nice to have the chance to get recommendations and network with big names, and nice to have that boosted chance of matching a great home program. On the other other hand, maybe it's hard to stand out and form real connectionswhen your peers are such rockstarsRE connections, 10% of the Geisel 2016 class matched to Harvard residencies so there's that.

Considering that Mayo gave you a full tuition scholarship plus fees, do you think that you might be dropping them a little too quickly?

I get the newness factor is concerning but no debt and the Mayo name is still a big deal. Also if you peruse the mayo AZ thread people have provided some great reasons and alternatives about the benefits of Mayo AZ. I've done program's at both campuses and faculty from both campuses have stressed the "one campus" motto. It might be worth talking to more physicians about Mayo AZ before writing them off completely. Either way best of luck with whatever you choose

 

[WedgeDawg]

You're not going to "hurt" your career per se if you choose Dartmouth over Pitt. All else being equal, I would choose Pitt, but if you like Dartmouth better, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to Dartmouth. It's a solid program.

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

Ultimately, I think the value of your clinical education is directly related to what you will see/experience on rotations. UPMC can compete with some of the best clinical training institutions in the country and I honestly think you will be a better, more experienced physician going into residency than those graduating from Dartmouth. Just because Dartmouth is an Ivy does not mean that Hanover, NH and DHMC will be able to expose you to the right patient populations and cases that will likely determine what residency and specialty you go into. Go to Pitt!

 

[SValley]

Ultimately, I think the value of your clinical education is directly related to what you will see/experience on rotations. UPMC can compete with some of the best clinical training institutions in the country and I honestly think you will be a better, more experienced physician going into residency than those graduating from Dartmouth. Just because Dartmouth is an Ivy does not mean that Hanover, NH and DHMC will be able to expose you to the right patient populations and cases that will likely determine what residency and specialty you go into. Go to Pitt!

Hmm..but doesn't this matter more so for residency? Ive always seen medical school as a sort of stepping stone for real clinical training (residency/fellowship). Going into intern year day 1, I'd be hard pressed to call myself a "real physician." More like an MD-lite or MD-with training wheels proceed with caution. This isn't going to change because I saw a patient with advanced cardiomyopathy with some underlying pericarditis sprinkled in & also casually slipping in and out of SVT that one time on my Medicine rotation in 3rd year.

Think about it. Core and elective rotations are 6-8 weeks max. Done so we can figure out what we love. Sub-Is are probably the closest thing you can get to residency training and that's only another 2-6 months max. Sub-Is can be done anywhere. So that's a wash.

I, personally, will be going into clinical years trying to get a solid foundation of bread and butter. If you can't understand bread and butter, there's no foundation to build on in residency.

 

[SValley]

Maybe I'm totally flying my cape for Geisel right now. I am also captain of Pitt is Lit committee so really wherever you, OP, (and lowkey me too) choose is the right decision. Lol

 

[BurghStudent]

I was in a similar position. Ended up deciding based on location, family.

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

Hmm..but doesn't this matter more so for residency? Ive always seen medical school as a sort of stepping stone for real clinical training (residency/fellowship). Going into intern year day 1, I'd be hard pressed to call myself a "real physician." More like an MD-lite or MD-with training wheels proceed with caution. This isn't going to change because I saw a patient with advanced cardiomyopathy with some underlying pericarditis sprinkled in & also casually slipping in and out of SVT that one time on my Medicine rotation in 3rd year.

Think about it. Core and elective rotations are 6-8 weeks max. Done so we can figure out what we love. Sub-Is are probably the closest thing you can get to residency training and that's only another 2-6 months max. Sub-Is can be done anywhere. So that's a wash.

I, personally, will be going into clinical years trying to get a solid foundation of bread and butter. If you can't understand bread and butter, there's no foundation to build on in residency.

For me, I guess it's more about the attendings and residents that I will be working with, less than what I directly experience.

I was thinking along the lines of broader pt population = more opportunities with attendings/residents in different areas/specialities = better perspective of goals for residency/specialty?

But what do I know, I have no first hand experience with this yet, just going off of anecdotal evidence of my PI and other mentors....


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[Ampharos]

Disclosure: not on waitlist for either

I though that Dartmouth had a more New England college feel. Collaborations with Tuck could be cool if you liked that. My gut feeling likes Dartmouth better than Pitt because it was calmer. Students seemed happier too.

 

[theNDhopeful44]

Disclosure: not on the waitlist for either program.

Dude, you have the opportunity to go to a top 20 program. UPMC >>>>>>> DHMC. The training you'll get is superb. Go to Pitt!

Although IMHO, from your posts on this thread, it seems like you're trying to convince yourself into going to Geisel.

 

[Gurby]

Disclosure: not on the waitlist for either program.

Dude, you have the opportunity to go to a top 20 program. UPMC >>>>>>> DHMC. The training you'll get is superb. Go to Pitt!

Although IMHO, from your posts on this thread, it seems like you're trying to convince yourself into going to Geisel.

To be honest, I'm trying to convince myself to go Dartmouth because then I could drop my OChem class and go hike the Appalachian Trail. Pitt and Mayo both require the class... It's stupid thing to let be a factor in such a big decision, and the timing window is closing for being able to do it anyways... It's something I've wanted to do for years though, and I might not get another 4-month chunk of free time again until retirement.

That said, the past few days I've kind of been leaning towards Mayo. I think maybe the discouragement I've gotten about it from resident/attendings was overblown, and could be mitigated by doing as many rotations in MN at possible, getting letters and doing research with MN people, etc. Full scholarship works out to be $200k in post-tax dollars, and after accounting for interest and tax that's like $500k I'd need to make as an attending to pay it off. Still waiting to hear about financial aid from Pitt+Geisel.

Basically I'm a mess. Clinging to hope that I get off the WL at Penn or WashU which would make the decision much easier.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

To be honest, I'm trying to convince myself to go Dartmouth because then I could drop my OChem class and go hike the Appalachian Trail. Pitt and Mayo both require the class... It's stupid thing to let be a factor in such a big decision, and the timing window is closing for being able to do it anyways...

That said, the past few days I've kind of been leaning towards Mayo. I think maybe the discouragement I've gotten about it from resident/attendings was overblown, and could be mitigated by doing as many rotations in MN at possible, getting letters and doing research with MN people, etc. Full scholarship works out to be $200k in post-tax dollars, and after accounting for interest and tax that's like $500k I'd need to make as an attending to pay it off. Still waiting to hear about financial aid from Pitt+Geisel.

Basically I'm a mess. Clinging to hope that I get off the WL at Penn or WashU which would make the decision much easier.

So if you get of the WL for Penn and WashU you would go even if it was full price?

 

[Gurby]

So if you get of the WL for Penn and WashU you would go even if it was full price?

...Maybe. Hopefully it wouldn't be full price. I guess I would still have a tough choice to make

 

[To be MD]

Not sure about COA but probably comparable. I think I'd like to end up in NE or PNW.



I did... and to muddy the waters further, they offered me a full tuition+fees scholarship (not guaranteed for all 4 years though... but probably for all 4 years... but maybe not). I liked the school, the facilities were the nicest of any school I went to, people are nice, good opportunities to do outdoorsy things I like to do. I'm just a bit scared by the newness, and wary of the fact that as a premed it's hard for me to gauge how big a factor that might be. I've talked to a couple residents/attendings at big name programs who discouraged me from going there unless they gave me a pile of money. Haven't heard about financial aid from Dartmouth or Pitt, so I think that might be a big deciding factor in the end.

Pretty much yeah. I really don't imagine it's super valuable to see lots of zebras as a medical student who barely knows what a horse is. Also, as complexity increases med students will likely be directly involved less. On the other hand, it's nice to have the chance to get recommendations and network with big names, and nice to have that boosted chance of matching a great home program. On the other other hand, maybe it's hard to stand out and form real connectionswhen your peers are such rockstarsRE connections, 10% of the Geisel 2016 class matched to Harvard residencies so there's that.

Bruh you gotta take the Mayo.

 

[Astra]

...Maybe. Hopefully it wouldn't be full price. I guess I would still have a tough choice to make

I know just the thing to help you make your choice

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

To be honest, I'm trying to convince myself to go Dartmouth because then I could drop my OChem class and go hike the Appalachian Trail. Pitt and Mayo both require the class... It's stupid thing to let be a factor in such a big decision, and the timing window is closing for being able to do it anyways... It's something I've wanted to do for years though, and I might not get another 4-month chunk of free time again until retirement.

That said, the past few days I've kind of been leaning towards Mayo. I think maybe the discouragement I've gotten about it from resident/attendings was overblown, and could be mitigated by doing as many rotations in MN at possible, getting letters and doing research with MN people, etc. Full scholarship works out to be $200k in post-tax dollars, and after accounting for interest and tax that's like $500k I'd need to make as an attending to pay it off. Still waiting to hear about financial aid from Pitt+Geisel.

Basically I'm a mess. Clinging to hope that I get off the WL at Penn or WashU which would make the decision much easier.

So the Mayo MN campus students got paired to email with accepted students at the AZ campus and the 2 people I've been talking to confirmed they are going to Mayo AZ (well one is definite, the other was like 99% sure). They both are turning down higher ranked schools than Pitt even to go to Mayo AZ. This is not unlike the MN campus where many of my classmates turned down Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, Stanford, WUSTL, etc. All I'm saying is I think the AZ class is going to be superstars and match very well in 4 years.. You have to be secure in your decision and feel good about where you choose, especially at Mayo where fit is very important, but really take the time with this decision because like you said it's turning down ~ $500k in the long run. You would definitely be able to build connections with Mayo Clinic Rochester faculty if you want. I've built connections with faculty in Arizona and I only went down there for selectives. My classmates have also built connections with faculty at both the AZ and FL campuses (a couple are doing research with Dr. Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa at the Florida campus). I can't imagine it would be difficult at all for AZ students to do this next year and in fact I think it will be encouraged.

 

[libertyyne]

Ultimately, I think the value of your clinical education is directly related to what you will see/experience on rotations. UPMC can compete with some of the best clinical training institutions in the country and I honestly think you will be a better, more experienced physician going into residency than those graduating from Dartmouth. Just because Dartmouth is an Ivy does not mean that Hanover, NH and DHMC will be able to expose you to the right patient populations and cases that will likely determine what residency and specialty you go into. Go to Pitt!

DHMC is not the only hospital you have to do your rotations in. Geisel School of Medicine - Affiliated Teaching Hospitals