Ron Desantis "Vaccine Accountability Roundtable"

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When I hold my roundtable discussion on whether or not the Nazis REALLY killed 6 million Jews and feature Gavin McGuinness, Lauren Southern, and Richard Spencer I'm sure you'll feel the same way. We're just "investigating the legitimacy of the claims".

Or maybe closer to your persuasion: When I conduct my thorough investigation into Hunter Biden's Laptop with Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton.

Conspiracies like the anti-vax movement, Holocaust denial, Flat Earthers, whatever... don't deserve roundtable discussions or committees. There is no burden of proof high enough for the mindset they attract, and you absolutely can question the legitimacy of such a committee when there are clear zealots orchestrating it.
Sorry, but of course one can question any part of science, especially the parts the State uses to justify their decisions. It ain't some holy text. That's exactly why the m0r0ns thought for 2,000 years that the Earth was flat, because nobody dared question something so "common sense" (even before the Church considered it blasphemy).

I would almost say that it's a patriotic duty to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards the government, and towards current dogmas.

And you can't put history in the same sentence, because history cannot be tested and verified experimentally. That's usually written by the victors.

As a physician, one should doubt a lot of things in one's specialty. That's what makes a good doctor. I discard as useless 90%+ of the critical care papers I read.

And I'm the kind of guy that has had a ton of vaccines in his life. I just don't think all of them are worth it, or for everybody, without any risks vs. benefits considerations. Every drug in medicine has side effects, why wouldn't vaccines have too? I think the level of our medicine is extremely primitive, and 100-200 years from now they'll look at us the way we look at healers from 1000 years ago.

I also tell patients what I would do and what I would advise my family to do in a certain situation and why, the pros and cons. It usually gets across. Same for the government. They should talk to people, not at people. Of course, if DeSantis peddles fake science, that's a different story.

P.S. Sorry, you pushed a button. I see so much dogma around me, on an almost daily basis, that it drives me nuts when I hear that science should not be questioned, especially when coming from the government.

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Because it just directly undermines public health messaging, sows confusion, creates additional distrust for no reason, misreports/falsifies scientific evidence (which DeSantis and Ladopo do regularly), and makes inappropriate recommendations based on garbage data. Then it gets parroted by Fox News where to their crowd. This can create a lot of damage. These are problems. Come on naive premed. Do you really think it’s going to be anything more than a kangaroo court?
Questioning things doesn't do the things you described. People asking questions is a normal part of life. Odd that you aren't familiar with this... Forcing things and getting offended that questions are uttered breed what you described. There's many physicians and researchers that are asking those questions. Google is readily available if you're not aware of these professionals. Were you a pre-med at your join date (2008?) If so, I'm probably your age. Non-trad. But nice try on the ad hominem.

Kangaroo court? Did you not see Florida election results. The red wave people suspected didn't happen throughout the country but it certainly happened in FL. FL is going to do what they want. And just because the monkey disagrees with the kangaroo doesn't make it wrong...
 
Sorry, but of course one can question any part of science, especially the parts the State uses to justify their decisions. It ain't some holy text. That's exactly why the m0r0ns thought for 2,000 years that the Earth was flat, because nobody dared question something so "common sense" (even before the Church considered it blasphemy).

I would almost say that it's a patriotic duty to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards the government, and towards current dogmas.

And you can't put history in the same sentence, because history cannot be tested and verified experimentally. That's usually written by the victors.

As a physician, one should doubt a lot of things in one's specialty. That's what makes a good doctor. I discard as useless 90%+ of the critical care papers I read.

And I'm the kind of guy that has had a ton of vaccines in his life. I just don't think all of them are worth it, or for everybody, without any risks vs. benefits considerations. Every drug in medicine has side effects, why wouldn't vaccines have too? I think the level of our medicine is extremely primitive, and 100-200 years from now they'll look at us the way we look at healers from 1000 years ago.

The point is that DeSantis’s “roundtable” is not really a round table at all. I only see one side invited to the table. Ostensibly, they’ll leave out reams of data and outcomes or misrepresent research.
 
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The point is that DeSantis’s “roundtable” is not really a round table at all. I only see one side invited to the table. Ostensibly, they’ll leave out reams of data and outcomes or misrepresent research.
Now that's a different story and unfortunate. Let's hope that most people will see through that.
 
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When I hold my roundtable discussion on whether or not the Nazis REALLY killed 6 million Jews and feature Gavin McGuinness, Lauren Southern, and Richard Spencer I'm sure you'll feel the same way. We're just "investigating the legitimacy of the claims".

Or maybe closer to your persuasion: When I conduct my thorough investigation into Hunter Biden's Laptop with Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton.

Conspiracies like the anti-vax movement, Holocaust denial, Flat Earthers, whatever... don't deserve roundtable discussions or committees. There is no burden of proof high enough for the mindset they attract, and you absolutely can question the legitimacy of such a committee when there are clear zealots orchestrating it.
Relating those things shows you're not acting in good faith or you don't understand the topics...

Gavin just told Kanye the other week to stop denying the Holocaust so again, check yourself lol. Investigate the laptop-why would I have a problem with that?

Do you know what phlogiston is? You should look it up.
 
Sorry, but of course one can question any part of science, especially the parts the State uses to justify their decisions. It ain't some holy text. That's exactly why the m0r0ns thought for 2,000 years that the Earth was flat, because nobody dared question something so "common sense" (even before the Church considered it blasphemy).

I would almost say that it's a patriotic duty to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards the government, and towards current dogmas.

And you can't put history in the same sentence, because history cannot be tested and verified experimentally. That's usually written by the victors.

As a physician, one should doubt a lot of things in one's specialty. That's what makes a good doctor. I discard as useless 90%+ of the critical care papers I read.

And I'm the kind of guy that has had a ton of vaccines in his life. I just don't think all of them are worth it, or for everybody, without any risks vs. benefits considerations. Every drug in medicine has side effects, why wouldn't vaccines have too? I think the level of our medicine is extremely primitive, and 100-200 years from now they'll look at us the way we look at healers from 1000 years ago.

I also tell patients what I would do and what I would advise my family to do in a certain situation and why, the pros and cons. It usually gets across. Same for the government. They should talk to people, not at people. Of course, if DeSantis peddles fake science, that's a different story.
I appreciate the sanity. Well said.
 
The point is that DeSantis’s “roundtable” is not really a round table at all. I only see one side invited to the table. Ostensibly, they’ll leave out reams of data and outcomes or misrepresent research.
You're right. Ron gets a table of people while the media, government, foreign nations, etc etc had all airwaves nonstop for over 2 years (many say we're still in a pandemic, I hope you're mask is on). Allow me to play my tiny violin for you. Can't believe you can say this with a straight face lol :rofl::rofl:
 
Questioning things doesn't do the things you described. People asking questions is a normal part of life. Odd that you aren't familiar with this... Forcing things and getting offended that questions are uttered breed what you described. There's many physicians and researchers that are asking those questions. Google is readily available if you're not aware of these professionals. Were you a pre-med at your join date (2008?) If so, I'm probably your age. Non-trad. But nice try on the ad hominem.

Kangaroo court? Did you not see Florida election results. The red wave people suspected didn't happen throughout the country but it certainly happened in FL. FL is going to do what they want. And just because the monkey disagrees with the kangaroo doesn't make it wrong...


Please show me a legit researcher who is doing this.

Except they aren’t questioning things. They will be deliberately misrepresenting data. Do you see the other side invited? I sure don’t. This is a typical autocratic tool used to advance their own cause.

This is coming from the same governor who’s surgeon general’s research showed an increase in cardiac related deaths post vaccine (despite not actually bothering to figure out what the cause of death was). He then makes broad recommendations based on that data.

Having worked in that state and having to deal with his policy choices, it certainly caused a lot of unnecessary destruction.
 
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Relating those things shows you're not acting in good faith or you don't understand the topics...

Gavin just told Kanye the other week to stop denying the Holocaust so again, check yourself lol. Investigate the laptop-why would I have a problem with that?

Do you know what phlogiston is? You should look it up.

Oh! Gavin told Kanye off for being too crazy? Well, all is forgiven.
 
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Now that's a different story and unfortunate. Let's hope that most people will see through that.
Well, it's the same story I've been telling, but whatever gets you to the table.
 
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Please show me a legit researcher who is doing this.

Except they aren’t questioning things. They will be deliberately misrepresenting data. Do you see the other side invited? I sure don’t. This is a typical autocratic tool used to advance their own cause.

This is coming from the same governor who’s surgeon general’s research showed an increase in cardiac related deaths post vaccine (despite not actually bothering to figure out what the cause of death was). He then makes broad recommendations based on that data.

Having worked in that state and having to deal with his policy choices, it certainly caused a lot of unnecessary destruction.
"Google is readily available to you"...

And it's unfortunate that you're not even familiar with the other side of the argument-as in I'm having to drop some names. This guy is rumored to be the most cited cardiologist in the world. But the covid god's don't like being questioned. Stop treating this like some dogmatic fundamentalist religion please :)

1671489402745.png
 
Oh! Gavin told Kanye off for being too crazy? Well, all is forgiven.
? They were specifically talking about Jews. It shows your point is false. But you're going to dig in? smh.....:rolleyes:

**edit. And now I can't comment lol. wth?
 
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Questioning new stuff in medicine is a good thing. This is why:

Back during the Spanish flu, the mortality among patients treated by doctors was a few times HIGHER than among those treated by non-physicians. This is not fake news, unfortunately. Why? Because physicians were poisoning people with high doses (30 g/day) of the new miracle drug: Aspirin. Aspirin toxicity looks exactly like severe flu.


I started watching that roundtable. They don't really sound like quacks to me. I'm sorry that this is politically incorrect, but somebody should question every public health policy, even if not like this. For example, stroke from certain Covid-19 vaccines is a known side effect, and that's serious stuff (even the coronavirus causes hypercoagulability, so it should not be a surprise).

What I agree with, though, is that one side is missing. The side of the physician scientist who would explain why the plural of anecdotes is not data. This is more politics than concern for public health.

But DeSantis has a HUGE point when saying that vaccine mandates are not OK. Also censoring skeptics and dissent should not be OK.

Science without free speech is not science (funny, I wrote this before the Stanford professor brought it up).
 
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"Google is readily available to you"...

And it's unfortunate that you're not even familiar with the other side of the argument-as in I'm having to drop some names. This guy is rumored to be the most cited cardiologist in the world. But the covid god's don't like being questioned. Stop treating this like some dogmatic fundamentalist religion please :)

View attachment 363603
Oh God. Not McCullough.

It is a religion and he's been preaching hydroxychloroquine and taking the vaccines off the shelves. Baylor has a restraining order against him.

I'm familiar with his "work".
 
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For anyone who doesn't know who Ladapo is, he:

1. Heavily, heavily promoted ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine.

2. Promoted an anonymous, non-peer reviewed analysis that said cardiac death from the vaccine was high in men 18-39 so they shouldn't get vaccinated.

3. Lied about having experience treating COVID-19 pts during the time he was still at UCLA.
 
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Of course, if DeSantis peddles fake science, that's a different story.

DeSantis is peddling fake science.

I'm attacking zealotry and I'm as much against blind faith in government or corporations as you.

Give my posts 10% more charitability with that in mind.
 
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DeSantis is peddling fake science.

I'm attacking zealotry and I'm as much against blind faith in government or corporations as you.

Give my posts 10% more charitability with that in mind.
I totally agree that he's no Mother Theresa.

But somebody should be questioning vaccine mandates. Especially of vaccines that went through emergency use authorizations, instead of the usual FDA approval process, hence are less safe by definition.

I can't really fault DeSantis for this. This is public service. Vaccine mandates (e.g. by colleges or employers) should be illegal. And again, I have accepted almost every vaccine that has been recommended to me in my life.

We cannot just ignore the Swedish experience, where they vaccinated much fewer people, and yet nothing really bad happened. Of course the average Swede is healthier than the average American, this is why it should be a case-by-case discussion.
 
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I totally agree that he's no Mother Theresa.

But somebody should be questioning vaccine mandates. Especially of vaccines that went through emergency use authorizations, instead of the usual FDA approval process, hence are less safe by definition.

Ok. So if we agree that neither of us would construct a committee (or appoint a surgeon general) like DeSantis is doing, I don't know what we're arguing about.

I don't know what positions you're intuiting from me beyond that and I'm not terribly interested in exploring them.

The vaccines are continuously being studied. I'm not opposed to that. I'm opposed to gross misrepresentation of scientific consensus on their safety and utility *among other things.
 
Ok. So if we agree that neither of us would construct a committee (or appoint a surgeon general) like DeSantis is doing, I don't know what we're arguing about.

I don't know what positions you're intuiting from me beyond that and I'm not terribly interested in exploring them.

The vaccines are continuously being studied. I'm not opposed to that. I'm opposed to gross misrepresentation of scientific consensus on their safety and utility.
I've been listening for an hour. I'm not sure if that's what they did. They seem to be skeptical about mRNA vaccines, not vaccines in general, and they are against vaccine mandates.

Let's agree to disagree about this point. I've posted way too much today.

I think everybody should listen to the roundtable before making up their minds about the intentions of these people. Maybe I'm missing something, because I am approaching this with very little prejudgment (I have only heard of DeSantis and Brett Weinstein before), and I'm kind of tired.

And again, I don't want to be rude, but I doubt that a consensus can be scientific when people who are against are censored or punished in any way. There can be no science without free speech, just dogmas. I mean the Catholic Church used to burn people for suggesting that the Earth was round, not flat; I can see a very strong parallel here.
 
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And again, I don't want to be rude, but I doubt that a consensus can be scientific when people who are against are censored or punished in any way. There can be no science without free speech, just dogmas.

None of the people in the roundtable are this bad; but in principle you would agree that punishing someone like former doctor Andrew Wakefield is justified right?

The OG anti-vaxer. The guy falsified studies to show a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, was secretly employed by a rival vaccine manufacturer, and has kept his own brand of anti-vax grift going for decades now.

Now, I see the people on DeSantis' roundtable (and Ladapo) as existing somewhere between legitimate scientist and Andrew Wakefield. Nowhere near as bad, but existing in the same space. Cherry-picking studies, p-hacking, comfortable to be used by DeSantis to accomplish his political goals; in essence biased towards a certain contrarian political narrative.

I'm not saying we need to revoke their licenses or fine them, at least I'm not aware of anything they've done that's that egregious. But they're in the same miasma of conspiracy theory peddling and grifting as Wakefield.
 
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This would go better in the midterms thread, which is locked, but it also applies to this discussion:

 
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Where's that guy who cited McCullough at me? I request now as the time to walk me through this grift.

"Google is readily available to you"...

Fwiw, here is the review article he cites: https://www.tmrjournals.com/article.html?J_num=4&a_id=2402

And here are the miracle myocarditis-preventing heart healthy pills he's hawking.
1671640253589.png


I'm fine with anybody studying excretion of spike proteins if they want to, even though there are multiple articles out there debunking it. Using "vaccine shedding" or "gene shedding" as a fear mongering/fundraising tool against getting a vaccine that has helped millions of people though? Strong case for cutting that out of the profession on "professionalism" grounds.
 
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What I don’t get is they are worried about vaccine mRNA hijacking the cells, but what is the coronavirus doing, except for hijacking (and destroying them in the process) cells to make many many different proteins beyond just the spike protein.
 
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Where's that guy who cited McCullough at me? I request now as the time to walk me through this grift.



Fwiw, here is the review article he cites: https://www.tmrjournals.com/article.html?J_num=4&a_id=2402

And here are the miracle myocarditis-preventing heart healthy pills he's hawking.
View attachment 363667

I'm fine with anybody studying excretion of spike proteins if they want to, even though there are multiple articles out there debunking it. Using "vaccine shedding" or "gene shedding" as a fear mongering/fundraising tool against getting a vaccine that has helped millions of people though? Strong case for cutting that out of the profession on "professionalism" grounds.



What’s in that?

Looks like all the antivax scammers got together.

 
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What’s in that?

Looks like all the antivax scammers got together.


Vitamins and some other stuff, probably fine. Doubt it prevents myocarditis though.

 
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I can't really fault DeSantis for this. This is public service. Vaccine mandates (e.g. by colleges or employers) should be illegal. And again, I have accepted almost every vaccine that has been recommended to me in my life.

We cannot just ignore the Swedish experience, where they vaccinated much fewer people, and yet nothing really bad happened. Of course the average Swede is healthier than the average American, this is why it should be a case-by-case discussion.

How did you feel about the Hobby Lobby decision? Should a company have a right to not hire me if I'm transitioning?

There's a lot of intellectual dishonesty on both sides of the aisle these days, but this really stuck out at me. If you're making the argument that the government shouldn't be able to force you to get a vaccine, that's a totally coherent conservative argument -- heck I probably even agree with you (even as someone very far to the left). Arguing that companies don't have the right to require you do something as a condition of employment, however, goes heavily against any "principled" conservative talking point I've heard in recent memory.

Conservatives today seem to be happy to stand on principle (e.g. states' rights) until it is used for a policy they don't like (California emissions requirements), and then all of a sudden that principle gets thrown into the trash. It's remarkable to me that a poster on this board whose political beliefs appear to be slightly to the right of Attila the Hun is making an argument for more corporate regulation...

To save FFP et al the trouble of coming up with examples for the whataboutism in their rebuttal, I agree that large parts of the left are also intellectually dishonest. Frustrating to see ostensibly educated people doing the same, though.
 
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We cannot just ignore the Swedish experience, where they vaccinated much fewer people, and yet nothing really bad happened. Of course the average Swede is healthier than the average American, this is why it should be a case-by-case discussion.
A few things I would like to point out about the Swedes and Covid. First off, they are a much more open collective society. Many Swedes self isolated and took other precautionary measures to avoid the spread of Covid. Meanwhile, the US is a much more closed individualistic society and our cultural response to Covid shows this. People wouldn’t even wear masks and stay home when sick. You had m0r0ns coughing and spitting on people because they denied Covid existed and denied it was a threat. This is night and day compared to the Swedish people. That being said the Swedish approach did not work as intended and the governments mixed messaging there ended up causing significant mortality compared to neighboring EU countries.
 
Desantis is making vaccine skepticism a defining feature of his upcoming 2024 Presidential campaign. It will be a way for him to separate himself from Trump who (despite his other failings) promoted Operation Warp Speed and urged his constituents to get vaccinated half-heartedly.

1675468213738.png


No separation anymore in the 2024 campaign.
 
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View attachment 365489

No separation anymore in the 2024 campaign.

Maybe I'm too naive to think Trump could run his campaign on the good things he actually did.

I should probably pontificate less on the MAGA id. If the Republican primary comes down to just name calling and "who is the ultimate vaccine skeptic?", well, that wouldn't surprise me.
 
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support clowns, get a circus
 
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And yet people on this board and across the nation actually WANT him to become the next president.

There is a reason Florida continues to get mass transplants from around the nation on a daily basis. During the peak Covid times our great state was kept largely open rather than bowing down to authoritarianism. During the 2020 summer of blood our state was largely kept safe from the black supremacists of BLM and incel ANTIFA idiots. This is freedomland down here and its all thanks to Governor Desantis. We need this man in the office of President.
 
There is a reason Florida continues to get mass transplants from around the nation on a daily basis. During the peak Covid times our great state was kept largely open rather than bowing down to authoritarianism. During the 2020 summer of blood our state was largely kept safe from the black supremacists of BLM and incel ANTIFA idiots. This is freedomland down here and its all thanks to Governor Desantis. We need this man in the office of President.
Troll alert 🚨
 
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So odd how this leftist thread doesn't get closed but the mask thread gets closed immediately.
 
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